Layout Lighting

[richhotrain]

I have a series of 2-light fluorescent shop light fixtures above my layout in an unfinished basement.

Assuming that the basement remains unfinished, any suggestions for replacing these lights with something different, something better, perhaps a more natural light.

I am growing tired of the fluorescent look.

Rich

[zstripe]

Rich,

Do they have a diffuser on the fixture? You can always try a different bulb,for the look you want,just like LED's do.  The ones I use look sort like a natural sunlight.. Forget the name,off hand.

Cheers, 

Frank

[middleman]

Rich:

I use track lighting,and I'm pretty happy with it.

[mlehman]

Rich,

I no longer use my fluorescent room lighting (about 900w worth) except when I need general work lighting. I've got most of the LED line voltage strip lighting up, except for the last three12' strands. I'm still using some track lighting spots to fill those few areas.

It is a little dimmer than the fluorescents, but also gives  a letterbox effect, so I am quite pleased with it. The next generation stuff should be the killer app.

What's nice about the strip lighting versus track lights is the way the strip lighting projects light. Strip lighting comes out like the seemingly paralell, rays of sunlight, thus doing away withe multiple spot overlaps of track lighting.

If you massage it a little when hanging it with the clips, you can turn it sideways like a row of tiny spotlights.

An example from the Cascade Branch

I use the Daylight version, but also comes in Warm White.

[doctorwayne]

I also use double tube fluorescent fixtures, and while the light quality is not ideal, the light quantity (lumens) is the highest available while still keeping the operating cost within reason.  Once all of the layout is in place, it'll be under almost 3kw of light fixtures - I'd add more, but I'd need to first install a sub-panel, as my 64 breaker main panel is full.

Wayne

[mlehman]

Wayne,

I was pretty happy with the light I had from fluorescents, as I have Chroma 50 equivalent bulbs installed. But the heat got bad, especially when I used the track lighting. At one time I had about 35 50w halogen track lites, plus the 900+w of tubes overhead. Now except for the remaining 10 track lights, everything else in white light is provided by the LED strip lighting, using a total 90 watts.

The cool factor alone sold me on the worth of these.

Mike,

BTW, I have tried a LED MR16 replacement (Feit Electric). Light output was iffy and it then burnt out after a short life. They won't sell many of these. Others seem to do better, but at $25 are pricey still.

[richhotrain]

zstripe

Do they have a diffuser on the fixture? You can always try a different bulb,for the look you want,just like LED's do.  The ones I use look sort like a natural sunlight..

There is no diffuser on fixture.  It is a simple 48" strip light that hangs on chains from the floor joists above the layout. 

The fluorescent bulbs are a pair of Sylvania 40-watt T-12 Soft White lights.  The color of the lighting is satisfactory.

What is starting to frustrate me is an occasional failure of the fixture itself.  It is an American Fluorescent Corporation 234SLESW Performance Utility Light that I bought at Menards for $18, not a bad price, but a cheap fixture.  I have eleven of them strategically placed along the layout.  When one of these fixtures fail, it is because of the ballast which is non-replaceable.  So, I wind up running to Menards to buy a new fixture.

Rich

[zstripe]

Rich,

I thought maybe you had one of those good ones,,with the diffuser and the replaceable Ballast, Like,I put above My Neighbor's pool table.....But You're not playing Pool..

Cheers,

Frank

[HaroldA]

I am also using fluorescent fixtures with daylight tubes and they are just okay.  I have used track lights in areas before and for me they tend to give off a significant amount of heat.  I have just installed LED under cabinet lights in the kitchen and the light they give off is yellow so I wouldn't use these particular ones on a RR.  What about some kind of rope light?  I am have never used them but they seem to be easy to install and reasonably priced.

[richhotrain]

HaroldA

I am also using fluorescent fixtures with daylight tubes and they are just okay.  I have used track lights in areas before and for me they tend to give off a significant amount of heat.  I have just installed LED under cabinet lights in the kitchen and the light they give off is yellow so I wouldn't use these particular ones on a RR.  What about some kind of rope light?  I am have never used them but they seem to be easy to install and reasonably priced.

Harold, I agree with you.  I like the idea of track lighting, but the heat issue concerns me.

Rich.

[HObbyguy]

I started with a track light that was already in the center of the ceiling but it was not near enough to light the whole area.  So I mounted a couple of cheap single-tube fluorescents so I could see what I am doing.  Now that I just ordered 36' of backdrop I guess its time to think seriously about proper lighting.

I might try something like this:  http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/top-emitting/variable-color-temperature-flexible-light-strip-kit-with-rf-touch-remote/1475/3515/   Pricy, but I like the idea of being able to adjust both color temperature and brightness. 6000 lumens should be equivalent to about 8 60W light bulbs so two or three of them along with the track lamps should be enough to light up my 13x14 layout area.  And I could mount the strips in channel on the ceiling right above the the layout to keep it neat.

Not sure if it helps the OP (Rich), but there are a whole lot more options on LED lighting systems than I realized, so worth looking at.  But have the LED systems really gotten that good?  Speaking for myself, I only want to do this once- so best to get it right now. 

[zstripe]

You might want to try,or look at the smaller Trac-lighting with mini,50watt spots,controlled with a dimmer switch,,that is what I use and there really isn't a lot of heat..I think Menard's has them on display..

Cheers, 

Frank

[richhotrain]

zstripe

You might want to try,or look at the smaller Trac-lighting with mini,50watt spots,controlled with a dimmer switch,,that is what I use and there really isn't a lot of heat..I think Menard's has them on display..

Cheers, 

Frank

Thanks, Frank, I am going over to Menard's today, and I will take a look at it.

Rich

[Doughless]

My layout is in an unfinished basement.  I placed the overhead fluorescent shop lights close to the layout on one side, then built a valance over the other part of the layout.  I use under cabinet type fluorescent fixtures under the valance.  These have individual plug ins and on/off switches and are daisy-chained to each other.  The shop lights come on with the wall switch and the valance lights must be turned on when I use the layout. I'm satisfied with this set-up. 

[Doug from Michigan]

mlehman

Rich,

I no longer use my fluorescent room lighting (about 900w worth) except when I need general work lighting. I've got most of the LED line voltage strip lighting up, except for the last three12' strands. I'm still using some track lighting spots to fill those few areas.

It is a little dimmer than the fluorescents, but also gives  a letterbox effect, so I am quite pleased with it. The next generation stuff should be the killer app.

What's nice about the strip lighting versus track lights is the way the strip lighting projects light. Strip lighting comes out like the seemingly paralell, rays of sunlight, thus doing away withe multiple spot overlaps of track lighting.

If you massage it a little when hanging it with the clips, you can turn it sideways like a row of tiny spotlights.

An example from the Cascade Branch

I use the Daylight version, but also comes in Warm White.

Hey Mike - Are those LED strips in your picture similar to the x-mas LED strip lights?  I see those showing up in stores now, with different color white light.

[mlehman]

Doug from Michigan

Hey Mike - Are those LED strips in your picture similar to the x-mas LED strip lights?  I see those showing up in stores now, with different color white light.

Doug,

Not sure. The one's I'm using are from Menards, brand name "Meridian," cost is $40 for a 12' section.

[mlehman]

zstripe

You might want to try,or look at the smaller Trac-lighting with mini,50watt spots,controlled with a dimmer switch,,that is what I use and there really isn't a lot of heat..

Frank,

They maybe cool with just a few. Speaking from personal experience, when you get up to 3 dozen or so, there's definitely heat.

[zstripe]

I only use them in certain areas,,not to light up the whole layout,,,the ones I bought were square looking,360 degrees adjustable and movable on the track....If you were to buy 3 dozen of them,,you had better dig deep in your pockets,,they were 36.00,10 yrs ago,,for three on a track,you can even add a colored glass filter for them...They are more like the kind you find in a Museum,,the ones that Menard' sells,are a take-off of them..

Cheers,

Frank

[mlehman]

My track lights are definitely the cheap ones -- something distinct from the LED line voltage strip lighting also being discussed just so no one gets confused here -- but if it uses a MR16 bulb, the heat is pretty much the same.

It's also where the LED line voltage strip lighting really shines...

The decent MR16 replacements are here, but you're talking around $25 a "bulb"(LED) to replace the current energy/heat/hogs you're presently running.

Now consider the LED strip lighting. $40 sounded like a lot of money, didn't it? I guarantee you that the strip lighting I'm using will give way more coverage than the track lights will, no matter how fancy that bulb is. It the difference between point sources and the parallel rays that the light strips put out. It's not only just as efficient, maybe more? than the MR16LED, it's a much better use of what's generated. I don't have a way of measuring it, but it must be in the 250% to 400% greater range.

Now they've started having sales on these at $25 for the 12 foot length. A one to one comparison to LED MR16 to the LED line voltage light strips shows the light strips far ahead at equal cost. And all it takes to hang them are some zip ties or plastic clips. No need for an electrician.

Now, I'm not taking my tracks down. In the end, there half a dozen places that will get LED spots -- when I can afford it. There are places where you want to make a statement with light. Long before that, I'll get the last strip lights (need 3 or 4 more) up. Sometimes a single row is not enough for a deep scene, but all you need is another strip to fix that. The light from them is so natural you start to forget its inside, because the parallel rays are the visual cuing for outdoor light.

Sorry for just being really satisfied with these LED light strips, but I also wanted people to be clear on the math here if you are thinking about an LED conversion as many are. The light strips work particularly well for doubledeck and other confined scenes where track lighting is impractical, like this one that is just coming together now.

[zstripe]

Mike,

I hope you don't think,that I am comparing the track lighting to LED's,,,I used them on the tail lights and any other,light on my  truck I could,,they are great and your system is also...My layout is in my attic,,I finished it my self,with the intent,of using it for a train room and study,workshop...So my lighting was already planned,recessed,in the ceiling and some parts of the slanted walls,the track lights are used,to highlight certain areas,,similar set up like an Art gallery would do....No problem with heat,,the attic is fully finished,heat and AC..  I would have loved to have a basement,,but no homes around here do,,the water table is too high...

Cheers, 

Frank

[mlehman]

Frank,

Oh, no problem, I just wanted to gush about my lights a little. People want to take a sharp pencil to LED conversions, because they don't come cheap. I wanted to make clear how some of the cost needn't seem so high if you use the right light for the right job.. There's still a place for track lights, but you don't want to start by assuming that one just replaces the other. Figure it out more like a clean sheet of paper if you use strip lights, then what they don't cover is often suitably placed for highlighting from the existing track.

[BIG JERR]

After seeing and reading about mikes LED rope light a few weeks back ,Costco got some in and I picked up 3 18' foot boxes w/3 6' incased strings in each , Excited I opened 1 box and before I even unrolled em I seen they were NOT as bright as the ones In Mikes pictures and were about 1/4 of the light output as my cfls .... sooo back they go and well try to find bright ones like in Mikes picts...Jerry 

[mlehman]

Jerry,

Yeah, LED lighting specs and prices are all over the place right now. Beware if it's labeled "rope light" as these tend to be dimmer than "strip lighting."

As I noted, the one's I'm using came from Menards and are "Meridian Electric" brand, Item #37002 Daylight LED Line Voltage Strip Lighting. This is the link to the item on the Menards website:

http://www.menards.com/main/lighting-fans/indoor-lights/accent-lights/12-daylight-led-tape-light-120v/p-2050669-c-7490.htm

And they're even on sale again at $32.

[HObbyguy]

Been watching along and doing my own research (we don't have Menard's around here) and agree, specs and prices for LED strips are all over the place.  It looks like things to watch for are rated watts and lumens, also the number of LED chips per foot.  The Menards link shows the one you like to be rated at 9.6 Watts, which according to conversion tables is less than a 60 Watt light bulb.  Probably close to ideal for enclosed areas, or if you use a bunch of strings.  But not quite what I am looking for.  I have a nice finished popcorn ceiling so want to mount the strips in channels to keep it neat, and all the mounting channel systems that I found are not cheap.  So the brighter the better since less channel is required.  Of course pricing for the more powerful strips is also a bunch higher and I don't want the lights to be glaring bright, so a bit of a balance.

I am going to dive in and order something by the weekend though.

[mlehman]

HObbyguy

The Menards link shows the one you like to be rated at 9.6 Watts, which according to conversion tables is less than a 60 Watt light bulb.  Probably close to ideal for enclosed areas, or if you use a bunch of strings.  But not quite what I am looking for. 

Most of my lighting is currently single string. I have four places where I've doubled up, because of the depth of the scene. The 3 additional 12' strings I have planned  will also double up, primarily over the 7' wide center peninsula. The angle of the light is narrow enough that it focuses it perpendicular from the light strip, which is one of the things where its design is a big improvement over point-type light sources.

I strongly suspect the conversion table you're citing is for point sources with an attempt at making the light as omnidirectional as possible, i.e. the replacement for the familiar light bulb. Probably not a good comparison. I did link to pics of my installation earlier, where it's probably a better depiction of the light than to a 60w lightbulb.

BTW, if you are planning a big replacement, it's best to get whatever you think your final selection is in for a tryout in person. Order one or two light strips to see if it's suitable. There are no real standards for consumers to use in judging color temperature and that can make a big difference in appearance to the eye.

Another tip. When you are ready to commit, it's best to get all your LEDs at once, if possible. They are made in batches. The color and other factors are usually close, but variations occur that can be wide enough to be jarring to the eye.

[HObbyguy]

Thanks for the response Mike.  I really like your pictures and they convinced me that the LED strips are the way to go, just working to adapt the concept to my particular situation.  I agree that the lighting conversions should be taken with a grain of salt, but the specs, conversions and your experience are the best available info that I have to work with.  I do plan to try one strip without doing any cutting as you suggested to make sure I like it.  That way I can return it if not happy.

I just heard from Backdrop Whouse and my shipment should be here in two weeks.  Looking forward to seeing what the finished part of my layout looks like with a backdrop AND nice lighting!

[mlehman]

Hi Walt,

Yes, LEDs are a whole new ball game for layout lighting. I got all inspired and, upon finding the light strips I needed more of were on-sale, I took a mental health afternoon off to pick up 3 more 12 foot strings of the Meridian line voltage light strips referenced earlier in the thread. It turns out everything in lighting is 22% off right now at Menards, so a good time to shop if you've been thinking about LEDs. In fact, if you haven't looked in the LED section of your favorite big box lately, you're likely in for a surprise at the wide availability of various LED lights.

On thing I do want to note is that these Meridian lights I'm using come pre-cut. I use the 12' ones, but they also have them in 6'. Menards did recently start carrying the more, ahem, sophisticated LED light strips that you can cut to what ever length needed, some with fancy controls, etc. The Meridians are much more pedestrian, looking a lot like a flat lamp cord in fact, studded with small surface mount LEDs. I actually think it's a lot handier than the fancier "ladder" type light strips for model RR uses. It's sure easier to put up and doesn't look as fragile (although that may be deceptive.)

Anyway, here are some Before and After shots of the layout room. I had 9 light strips up before, adding three more today. I also did a bit of rearranging for best coverage. I could use a little more light in a few places, but it's dang impressive performance when I can light the whole room so well on on 115 watts of energy. That is roughly 1/10 the consumption of the fluorescents above the drop ceiling.

Before: at the entrance to the room

After: at the entrance to the room:

Before: looking across Durango Yard

After: Looking across Durango yard

Before: Looking toward ASARCO smelter

After: Looking toward ASARCO smelter

Before: Looking across to Silverton

After Looking across to Silverton

One thing to be aware of is the camera's reproduction is different than the eye's. For instance, here's a pic looking up at the LEDs where they look much brighter than a mire dimly lit room. I'm not sure of the explanation.

They are a little dimmer than some of the other options  available, but the light is much more natural looking.

[HObbyguy]

I really enjoyed just looking at all the pics of your layout :)

Yes cameras and lighting can be very tricky- especially when it comes to color reproduction.  But I can see that you are getting everything well lit without all the shadows that the spots cast.

That drop ceiling gives you a lot of options for hanging lights and running wires.  With my finished ceiling I want to try the "ladder type" strips mounted in channel made for the purpose.  Not going to be cheap to light my whole layout that way, but luckily finances are not a big issue for me.  And since I just got started on the layout early this year I don't need to light up near the area that you have- at least not yet.

I'll post some pics once I get my test lights in place.  Its likely to be a while though- I removed all of my bridges and in the middle of "pouring water" in the stream bed, and I will also have backdrops to mount in a couple of weeks.  But lighting is high on my priority list and eager to get to work on that too.

[RDG1519]

This thread could not have come at a better time as I am looking at adding overhead light to the layout and was leaning to fluorescent. Thanks for the information and research and especially the pictures. Are the Menard's available with a controller for intensity? In other words can it be equipped with a dimmer to simulate any time of day high noon or dusk for example?

Thanks, Chris

[mlehman]

Chris,

I don't know if they are controllable by a dimmer. Says nothing on the box and I haven't tried. LEDs have a very narrow range of "dimmability." I play with this a lot when installingresistors, as I like my LEDs toned down a bit. I rather doubt that a standard rheostat would work. The LEDs that are set up to dim use a special circuit, electronic I think.

That said, this is another place where the camera may be exaggerating the brightness with its automatic compensation for lighting. I was somewhat surprised at how much the pairs of Before and After pics showed so little difference, except for the first pair where there was no previous lighting on the left side. It's not quite so "high noon" in appearance or brightness to the human eye, more like a pleasingly clear but distant view.

If I can figure out a way to get a dimmer into the circuit with these, I'll try that out to see what happens and let you know. I should be able to cobble one up, but am busy getting reay for an ops session on Sat. so won't get to it immediately.