One of the best parts about the program is that it is exactly scale so it won't let you "cheat". Suggest that you be careful about being creative with the flex track on the fly. I think that works OK for the guys with the big expansive layouts with plenty of room, but when working on a small layout its easy to get overly tight radius curves by accident (been there, done that, NOT going to do it again). One of the best things I did was transfer my plan directly to the layout with printed pages and carbon paper. Took all of the question out of it.
Since you haven't got any other responses yet, I think your plan operationally is better than mine. But my goal is different (more about modeling, and if it takes years to complete that's OK.) Looked for potential trouble spots and to my relatively untrained eye everything looks good. Make sure to use gentle turnouts for the crossovers between your mainlines since those produce a natural S-curve and I am sure you will want your all of your cars to go through easily without uncoupling. Also remember to give yourself a little extra spacing on parallel tracks around curves to make sure long cars will have enough clearance.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
Walt
Thanks for the encouragement, it's been a difficult learning process but kind of fun at the same time. I'm hoping to just get a close blueprint idea and adjust it as I go along with the flex track. I'm getting to where I want to be but I know the folks here know better ways to improve function and form. This forum has been a great help. Plenty of information and helpful people. Good luck on your layout.
Thanks for looking - Jim
I've been watching- and I actually think you've come a long way on the whole computer design concept in a very short time. Glad to see that you stuck with it.
I'll let the experts here comment on the layout design but I think you are getting close to what you are looking for. Elevations and complex terrain are fun to model, but agree they do complicate things. You should be able to get up and running long before I finish with my phase 1!
Getting the basics of XtrackCAD. Here's what I've come up with for my HO layout. Could use some finessing. Does this look like it will work? I'll plan a staging area off the lower right corner in the future.
http://mytrainlayout.shutterfly.com/pictures/32
I want to thank everyone again for giving me some insight into layouts. I've been playing around with XtrackCAD and though I'm learning a little at a time, I still have a long way to go. I'm getting the hang of adding track and turnouts but haven't made much progress in actually coming up with an operable design but it's still an interesting learning experience. I've got my double mainline around the layout but haven't figured out the crossovers yet. The third inner track was an experiment in loops and industry rails. Not very operable but at least I can get a train all the way around. I know there are many problems with this version (once a train is run through the loop I can't get it back to where it started). At least I'm getting a better look at what I want in my layout, the double main for one, and then I'll need to figure out the yard location and size and how to fit it in. Although staging would be nice, I don't think I'll worry about that for a while. Probably going to stay away from any elevation this time around. This is definitely more complicated that I thought it would be but what's life without any challenges.
Thanks again for looking - Jim
http://mytrainlayout.shutterfly.com/pictures/29
Paul,
I like both of your designs. Any chance of getting them in another format other than bitmap? I can't enlarge them to see the grades without the picture becoming distorted. Eyes aren't what they used to be.
Thanks for your efforts
Jim
hi Jim,
two plans for you. One loop to loop with staging, the other a double oval without. The first one would be my choice, though i would use the 72 ft ConCor coaches for my passenger trains.
The double track oval has all turnouts at the front, so it can be operated also when it is not away from the wall.
When running longer cars the 2,25" spacing will not be sufficient.
Having one or two trains out of sight is something you will love in the future. It will give you time to do some switching along the main. It gives the impression your trains are really going someplace. The visible yard is used for exchanging cars between the local and the mainline.
Smile
Paul
SmugglerVT,
I'm local to the Montpelier area (and Cowman is only a stones throw from me I believe)...
There is an additional "club" (more of an operating group, but we're a close bunch) in the Waterbury area. If you'd like details, send me a private message with a telephone number, and I'll give you a call.
The group of us that operate together are from all different areas... We've got a lead developer for QSI & QSI Solutions, Tony from "Tonys Trains", a couple electronics gurus, guys that are skilled with hand laid track, guys that are "Life Sized Railroaders" (Both of us from the NECR), amongst others.
I'll try to post up a copy of my "Burlington Branch" plan that was designed after the Burlington Sub of the NECR with a few extras added in. My design added a new feed plant to replace one that's on the VTR in Vergennes, keeping the old ramp track on the wye in Essex, and having NECR serve Burlington Yard and it's customers....
Chris
This space reserved for SpaceMouse's future presidential candidacy advertisements
Richard,
I'll be going to the show again this year with a little more knowledge under my belt. Took in the Springfield show in January for the first time as well. Lots to see.
Jim,
I have never been to the club, but have attended the show at the CV Fair Grounds for a number of years and have come to know some of the folks a bit. I'm sure you can learn a lot from them.
I have done my learning to date on a 4'x6' HO layout, but even that small you get the idea of what you are doing. Practice, mistakes, improve and realize that we keep learning as we go, when we stop learning, it may be time to dump the fire.
Expect you are going on Sat, My friend and I will be there to look, buy(?), learn and just have a good time.
Have fun,
Richard
I have seen Dash 9 locomotives and full-length passenger cars run through 22" radius curves and #4 turnouts without a problem at a local railroad club. The locos and cars are unmodified, and seem to run just fine. If you're really worried about those curves, get a Bachmann Amtrak set. Bachmann passenger cars can go through 18" radius curves, and so can my Spectrum K4s (recommended minimum 22".)
As long as the trackwork is smooth, you won't have any problems. If there are any issues, they will almost certainly be on the turnouts, and filing the points will resolve these. (Again, personal experience.)
Walthers 4 axle passenger cars can negotiate 22" radius curves without a problem (I feel bad for any poor guy who tries to get them through a tighter radius, though), and Con-cor makes some nice cars too.
SMUGGLERVT, you mentioned that the yard would be used as staging; I would advise against that. Staging is staging, and a yard is not a destination, it is just a location for sorting and exchanging freight cars. Additionally, you can see how I had to bend the staging to fit it in. If the main yard is to be used as staging, then it would have to be positioned in the same location over the tabletop where the staging yard is now. To allow all of your "druthers", I had to compress the on-layout yard severely. I would suggest that you build the separate staging, and use the yard for dropping of cuts of cars for a local or two. The yard could also be used for exchanging cuts between mainline freights, but its 14 car capacity isn't enough to serve as a staging yard.
S&S
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
I guess I should clarify that the layout can remain away from the walls except when I need to move it to make room to bring the summer items in and out of the basement. Once everything is parked I can again move the layout to be accessible. The yard would act mostly as a staging area and maybe the ability to break down a train or two and change operations. I'm not too concerned with prototypical operation, just having a layout to work on and trains for the kids to play with (including this almost 60 yr old kid). Simpler would definitely be in my best interests and I did upload a pic of my benchwork dimensions and google maps of the industries I want to try and model. It's the link on my first post. Again thanks for the feedback.
Hi Jim,
during the model railroad season you will have to get your motorcycles out first, then pull out the layout before it is ready for fun.
During the summer outdoor activities wiil keep you and your family away from the railroad. You should think very hard once more about your options.
A 4 ft wide table without access from the back has reach-in problems. If you want to run trains in the winter you'll probably have to deal with them. You can't say, long coaches are a problem of the future. A to tight radius might turn your dream into a nightmare.
smugglervt Would sure like to get something up and running so the visiting grand kids could have something to spark their interest
You might consider something much simpler, which can be build in some month's.
When you want to have a nice large yard, what is it's function? Chances are you end up using it for visible staging.
BTW if you want design help you could start by making an exact drawing of your benchwork and your possibilities or urge to change what you have built so far.
SmilePaul
Paul, you are correct, the benchwork is already built. I had to take into consideration that the layout is competing for space in my basement with three large motorcycles, a portable generator, and all the patio furniture. All this is stored in the basement during the winter and moved out in the spring. So other than winter time, the layout can be located away from the walls for access. Maybe in the future I'll be able to build a large storage building or add a third bay to the garage for winter storage but that's not in the budget for a while. I like the plan he came up but I think it's a bit more than I can handle, experience wise. If it could be modified to work without the staging I might be able to attempt it. I don't plan on having a lot of trains where I really need a staging area but a nice large yard would be nice. I like the elevation aspects but not sure if I could manage it easily with the flat grid and foam benchwork. I'm sure It could be managed but I've been slowly working on this for almost a year and not even close to laying any track. Would sure like to get something up and running so the visiting grand kids could have something to spark their interest. As far as rolling stock, the Amtrak train would be a future acquisition as for now I'm sticking with shorter boxcars and hoppers used in the industries I want to model. His plan shows a mining operation which I thought I would change to a logging/chipping operation to supply woodchips to the electric generating plant. Anyway, thanks for looking and providing your insight. All very much appreciated. We have a model railroad club in Essex VT that I'm going to stop in and visit this week. Maybe join if the weekly 30 miles drive doesn't get to me.
Schuylkill and SusquehannaSince you will be running full length cars and modern locomotives, you will need 22" radius curves as a minimum, but you should be able to use #4 Atlas turnouts.
I am not sure about this at all. The 22" radius is the bare minimum, the #4 turnouts, especially in crossovers are way to short; #6's are really needed for full length coaches.
More important however rolling back and forth a layout as big as yours will be difficult. Of course carpet is a no-no. A soft hand while rolling your empire might prevent cars from derailing or worse. Is rolling away your layout needed after every construction or running session?
I have the impression you have already built your bench. If this is true are you willing to change your benchwork?
BTW it is worth to think about standards before starting to plan or build a layout. Not only standards for the radius or turnouts are important. Standards e.g. for vertical clearance (also in staging), length of vertical and horizontal easements are needed as well, especially when running 1 ft long coaches or modern autoracks.
No problem, I like designing layouts, and making a custom design is a fun challenge.
If you build the plan, the staging would have to go in first, otherwise you would never be able to lay the track with only 4-5 inches of clearance above. Also, there might be a slight issue with tools or cut pieces of rail punching holes in the finished scenery above.
The design I came up with wouldn't be particually difficult or expensive to build. It would just take a lot of cookie-cutter benchwork. Even the most complex plan can be built if you take your time and think it through. The hills on the layout could fit Vermont relatively well. It's been a while since I was to Vermont, but as I recall, a few conifer tree tips sticking through puffball trees would work well. You would need a rock wall behind the yard to prevent an unreallistically steep hill. Some hills and retaining walls would prevent that area from looking like a wedding cake, and there's enough room between the upper track and the backdrop to make some low-profile hills.
I'm glad I was able to help.
For anyone reading this tread, here's the track plan I came up with:
Wow, that is some layout. Don't know if I'm up to something as elaborate but I like a lot of your ideas. The staging would definitely have to be a later project. Lots to contemplate. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into that plan.
I would advise against a roundhouse as they take up a supprising ammount of space when you also consider the turntable, coal dock, sand tower and house, water tower(s), and other engine servicing necessities. If you are running Amtrak, then I assume that you are moddeling the modern era and a roundhouse would not be apropriate for your diesels (I know there are still existing and used roundhouses, but these are exceptions, not the rule.)
The layout I designed has a yard, double track main line, 3 stations, a power plant complex, a creamery, a feed mill, a coal mine, and a small creek. There are implications of a large river along the edges of the layout, but the entire river is not modeled.
The mainline run is in the neighborhood of 170 feet with 2% grades. The staging yard can hold 6 trains of lengths ranging from 6 to 9 feet. The track climbs up 7.5" in the visable portions, and drops another 4" in staging to clear the tracks above. There are two towns entirely on the layout, and implications of a large town by the yard. The layout is set up for continuous running, and the track loops back at the uppermost town, so that the entire layout is pretty much a folded dogbone with the "neck" of the dogbone being the double track main ine.
There are 4 loacations where trains can cross from one track to the other. The layout is designed for realistic scenery and has a backdrop down the middle to make is seem larger. It is set up as a walkaround design, and vertical separation prevents the trains from passing through a scene more than once. Realistic operations are possible on this design.
A roundhouse could be jammed in where the yard lead currently is, but the facilities would need to be compressed to fit.
I'm modeling modern day rail but would like to someday add an Amtrak to the layout because I've working onboard the train back in the days when it ran from Montreal to where I work in St. Albans, VT. I figured I could run in on the mainline only with a siding off the main for the station which up here is just one small building where the ticket agent was stationed. I do plan to have crossovers from between the mainlines, I just ran out of free track to lay with the demo version of Anyrail. Most of my freight with be smaller box cars and hoppers and flatbeds. Some day when I have the space, I would like to expand somewhere to get in a steam loco but not for a long time. Got to get this one up and running first.
I'm hoping my son, the engineering student, can give me some help with the CAD type software. I like the idea of a double main in order to have two trains running along in opposite directions. I picked those particular industries because that is what we have up here in Northern VT. All are within 30 miles from where I live and are serviced by either the CN railway or New England Central. Still a lot of planning to do but I appreciate everyone's opinions and suggestions.
I took a look at you American flyer layout and like the yard and roundhouse feature. I think that would fit into my space along with the double main. I did extend the ends of the L to allow for larger radii curve. I like the double mainline in order to run two trains in opposite directions. I just think it looks cool. Everything else is still up in the air. Although I would like elevation I think that for a newbie like me, it would be easy and less complicated to do without. Still open to all suggestions. I have a son who is an engineering student and I'm hoping he can teach me how to use one of the track software packages. He knows CAD and hopefully he can teach the old man something. Looking forward to see your plan.
I was thinking of elevations but I may forgo that if it is too complicated given the amount of space I have available. I was thinking for the crossover only as a means to fill in the center but I may just go with two main lines with branches off to the center for my industries. Still lots to think about and absorbing comments of others on the forum.
I've finished a possible plan for your space, I'm just waiting for it to upload.
Looking at your track plan sketch, it appears that your end loops are actually in the neighborhood of 5 feet at one end, and 4-1/2 feet at the other. So you should be able to do a little better than 22 and 24 inch radius curves. Note that if the outer curve is 24 inch, the inner curve must be less than 22 inch to allow proper spacing between the two tracks.
Someone mentioned that you would be running full length cars and modern locomotives. I didn't see where you mentioned that. But if that is really the case, then your mentioned curve radii will probably cause you some problems with reliable running. This is because there will be a lot of end overhang, plus you may have to do a lot of mechanical modification to the equipment to get it to run on those radii. And in my opinion #4 turnouts are too sharp for modern equipment.
You also didn't show any way to get from the outer loop to the inner. With the inner loop doing that up and over you will create a reverse loop somewhere when you do connect the loops. This is not an issue so long as you take that into consideration when you do your track gapping and wiring
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I've been playing with the track arrangement a bit and the double track main is messing with the yard. Is the double track absolutely neccessary? I'll play with the yard location and see if I can't get some more room, but so far I have only been able to get 3 double-ended tracks with a total capacity of 14 40' freight cars.
The OP said that the banchwork rolls away for the wall for operating and working on the layout, so there won't be more than a 30" reach.