OK all, started ballasting thed layout recently, and have a problem. I started by using Cody's method of doing the middle of the tracks, then the roadbed. On both, as I've read in MR, I've "soaked" the ballast with 70% alcohol, waited 15-20 minutes, then used WS Scenic Cement, all of this applied with an eyedropper ONLY. In both cases, whether the middle of the track, or the sides, when applying the alcohol and or scenice cement, even with the eyedropper, it seems to "wash out" some of the ballast, especially on the roadbed. This is from a height of several inches above the track to right down against it. So the question is, am I using too much alcohol and scenic cement, or too close to the track, or what? Before applying anything the ballast is nicely formed again using Cody's method of using a foam brush to shape the roadbed. When finishing up however, you can see the areas that have been washed out, and of course are pretty uneven. Any and all help will be appreciated!
While I prefer to use "wet" water rather than alcohol, in either case this wetting agent should be sprayed using a sprayer capable of delivering a fine mist. Aim the first few spritzes upward, allowing the droplets to simply fall onto the ballast, then, once it's wet enough to not be dislodged, you can spray more directly. I'm not sure why you'd wait so long, especially when using alcohol, as it will evapourate much more quickly than water. Likewise, the Scenic Cement is an expensive way to ballast - it's essentially white glue, and if you have any amount of track to ballast, buy a gallon of white glue - it works as well as the Scenic cement or matte medium, and is much cheaper than either. Thin it with plain tap water, and if your water is especially hard, add a couple drops of dish detergent. I like a 50/50 ratio of glue to water, but 40/60 and 60/40 work fine, too.I use a plastic squeeze-type bottle which dispenses the thinned white glue in droplets when not squeezed, and keep it fairly close to the ballast - the effect would be similar to an eyedropper, but requires re-filling less often.
Ballasting seems to present problems for a lot of folks, and I'm not sure why, as it's one of the easiest tasks in this hobby and one which offers as much "bang for your buck" as anything.
Wayne
What brand of ballast are you using? The problem you're having is likely from over-saturation of the ballast so that insufficient pore space remains to absorb the glue, even after waiting 15-20 minutes. Woodland Scenics brand ballast is very much prone to washing out due to the lightweight material, but it can happen with any ballast if it's too saturated with wetting agent.
Edited to add more thought...
To fully diagnose the problem - is the glue combining with the ballast to form a mudslide type of issue, or is the glue balling up on the surface? If it's the former, there's too much liquid present, if the latter you have insufficient wetting agent and may need to adjust your wait time.
Remember, 70% isopropyl alcohol is still 30% water. The alcohol will help it soak in, but the water shouldn't be evaporating in only 20 minutes. There could still easily be enough water in the ballast to interfere with more liquid being absorbed, especially under winter indoor conditions.
Rob Spangler
I think waiting 15-20 minutes after spraying alcohol is the problem, because it will all have evaporated within that time. I apply glue immediately after dampening the ballast with alcohol.
I pretty much follow Wayne's methods as well. What you are no doubt experiencing are the simple laws of gravity. If there is insufficient ballast at the bottom of the roadbed to hold the ballast up to the top, any liquid applied will just wash it down to the bottom.
One trick I learned when ballasting steeper sloped roadbed was to brush some full strength white glue on the sides and pour some ballast into it. When it was dry, I swept up the excess, then ballasted the rest in my normal fashion. The single layer of glued ballast gave the slope some "tooth" preventing any further "washouts".
You also didn't mention the type of roadbed you were using. If you are using cork, you need to round off that sharp edge where the horizontal surface meets the slope, otherwise that edge will continually poke through your ballast making it very difficult to hide.
Mark.
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Spray isopropyl alcohol onto the balast and then immediately apply the glue mix with an eye dropper.
The glue should be either Elmer's white glue or matte medium, and it should be diluted, before applying, with water in anywhere from a 2:1 to 4:1 ratio, water to glue.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks for all the responses! @ Rob, I'm using ballast by Arizona Rock and Mineral, and have sanded the edges of all the cork roadbed I used. The glue is combining with the ballast, creating that "mudslide" effect. This is with applying with an eyedropper, but of course when squeezing out the alcohol, it adds to the washing out effect. Perhaps I should spray all the alcohol on with a sprayer using a fine mist then?
I also wonder if I should dilute the WS Scenic Cement, and add a few drops of detergent, as our water here is very hard. The bottle of course doesn't say to dilute the glue. Finally, I suppose I shouldn't wait 15-20 minutes. I think the bottle actually does state now that I think about it to wait two minutes....
A last thought. For wide areas to cover, I put down a coat of diluted Elmers glue, then a thin coat of ground cover (gravel ballast, green foam, cinders, and natural dirt by Scenic Express). I then put another layer on top, so I assume spraying all this with a fine mist of alcohol first would be advisable, then coating with the scenic cement? And, what does the alcohol do to any wood structure kits that might be hit by the spray?
I spray the ballast with "wet" water, water with a few drops of dish detergent in it. Then I dribble a 50-50 mix of white glue and water over the soaked ballast using one of those squeeze bootles that look like an old-style diner ketchup bottle. I will let that dry , test to make sure its solid. If not repeat .
My modules that had their scenery and ballast secured that way survived regular trips down the highway at 75 mph in the open bed of a pick up truck on the way to train shows with no displacement of scenery.
I have also used matte medium (Mod Podge Matte) but usually use plain old Elmer's white glue bought in a gallon jug.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
airborne101The glue is combining with the ballast, creating that "mudslide" effect. This is with applying with an eyedropper, but of course when squeezing out the alcohol, it adds to the washing out effect. Perhaps I should spray all the alcohol on with a sprayer using a fine mist then?
Provided the wetting agent isn't displacing the ballast by itself, your application method for that would seem to be fine, and it's the glue causing the problem. I haven't used the WS Scenic Cement, so can't speak to dilution ratios for it (the product is supposed to be ready to use as-is apparently, but it should be possible to dilute it some more if you want), but it still sounds to me like you're getting too much liquid for the ballast to handle. If the glue needs dilution, adding it in undiluted strength will add to the problem as the ballast may be unable to absorb the glue at all.
I also wonder if I should dilute the WS Scenic Cement, and add a few drops of detergent, as our water here is very hard. The bottle of course doesn't say to dilute the glue.
My area has very hard water as well. I haven't found it necessary to add separate wetting agent like detergent to the glue. I have notice that glue mixes can develop clumps and other issues if wetting agent is added, so I skip it completely.
Finally, I suppose I shouldn't wait 15-20 minutes. I think the bottle actually does state now that I think about it to wait two minutes....
That falls under "that depends." If waiting only a few minutes means that there's still too much liquid present for glue to be properly abosorbed, you still need to wait longer. I wait 15 minutes or more myself, and test in a small area before adding glue to all the ballast. Watch how the glue is absorbed and moves around. One small drop of glue can migrate to secure a surprisingly large area. If you're not used to ballasting it's very easy to use way too much glue without realizing how far each little bit will soak in.
airborne101 And, what does the alcohol do to any wood structure kits that might be hit by the spray?
And, what does the alcohol do to any wood structure kits that might be hit by the spray?
I protect all non-ballast areas, structures, locos, rolling stock, with cardboard shields so that the alcohol does not reach them.
Airborne,
I believe I started about the same time as you and I also started with "Cody's method" and originally experienced the same results you have had. I have used Woodland Scenics, Arizona Rock and mineral and Highball products . Here's what I do with a modified "Cody's method" that gives good results.
wp8thsub ......it still sounds to me like you're getting too much liquid for the ballast to handle..... Finally, I suppose I shouldn't wait 15-20 minutes. I think the bottle actually does state now that I think about it to wait two minutes.... That falls under "that depends." If waiting only a few minutes means that there's still too much liquid present for glue to be properly abosorbed, you still need to wait longer. I wait 15 minutes or more myself, and test in a small area before adding glue to all the ballast. Watch how the glue is absorbed and moves around. One small drop of glue can migrate to secure a surprisingly large area. If you're not used to ballasting it's very easy to use way too much glue without realizing how far each little bit will soak in.
......it still sounds to me like you're getting too much liquid for the ballast to handle.....
Rob, that's an issue with which I've never had a problem, and I wet the ballast (Woodland Scenics) until the water actually runs from its edges (well, not runs perhaps, but definitely pools alongside the tracks and in low-lying areas ). Then, I apply the diluted glue in a similar manner, without waiting, and apply sufficient amounts that it also pools alongside the tracks. Depending on the depth of the ballast and underlying loose material, drying time may be a week or more, but I've never had a problem with ballast being displaced or floating away, and the final results have always been very solid.
doctorwayne...I've never had a problem with ballast being displaced or floating away,
What can I say, Wayne? You da man! Your results speak for themselves, and always look good.
Ballast floating and moving when glued seems to be the most common problem people report on this and other forums. Like you say, it shouldn't necessarily be that difficult, but it seems to give lots of guys fits. I must admit I exercise care to ensure I don't overload it as every so often something will move if I get too much glue in the wrong place. I like to use fairly fine material to match how my prototype's track looked in the era I'm modeling, and the finer the ballast the more likely it'll get over-soaked.
wp8thsub .....Like you say, it shouldn't necessarily be that difficult, but it seems to give lots of guys fits. .....
.....Like you say, it shouldn't necessarily be that difficult, but it seems to give lots of guys fits. .....
Yeah, it's surprising how often the ballasting issue arises and equally surprising are the numbers of different solutions offered, with some working well for some people and poorly for others. For those of us with a successful procedure (at least for our own circumstances), the best we can do is offer them as possible options, but modellers ballasting for the first time might wish to experiment with several methods to see which works best for them.Personally, I find ballasting and painting rail to be among the easiest tasks in model railroading, and, at the same time, the ones which give a sense of satisfaction all out of proportion to the effort expended upon them.
Thanks again all, and SJ especially, as we're building the same project layout. I have had to go back and add another layer of ballast btw to those spots that washed out. I'll try that alcohol with the mist spray later this week when it warms back up enough here in Colorado......