a good source for matte medium and other supplies:
http://www.dickblick.com/search/?q=matte+medium&x=0&y=0&sp_cs=UTF-8
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
If you want no sound transmision, fill the underside of the layout, not very practical but works. One can design the layout using modules and have it so a foam sheet can fit the bottom.
The more solid the subframe is, the lesser the noise will be.
To really get a quiet roadbed, use the 1/8" thick sheets of black rubber/bitumen that are used by the car sound crowd.
Place it between the subroadbed and the cork for good effect. Do not let the ballast go past the rubber sheet, or the sound will be transferred to the subroadbed!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
While using matte medium instead of white glue for the ballast, is one good idea, I think you need to skip the cork and go with foam roadbed, like Woodland Scenics sells. You want to isolate your trains from the wood and walls.
rrebell You want less noise, try open air, the train makes almost no noise on my high steel trestle.
You want less noise, try open air, the train makes almost no noise on my high steel trestle.
Bingo! I have posted my own supporting observation a number of times on threads where train noise is being discussed. My bridges, no matter what type, plastic, metal, scale timber trestle...makes no never mind...as soon as the loco begins to run on a bridge on my layout all the noise stops.
I have been ballasting my beach sand (AKA cheap) ballast with yellow glue diluted to run into it easily. The glue does a good job, and doesn't seem to make the ballast look shiny. But, it makes a great sounding medium.
I found, eight years ago when I had to dismantle my very first layout so that we could lay carpet in the newly finished basement, that drywall strips are amazingly quiet. I set up a small switching layout to get me by while we finished the basement, and I used scraps of drywall for roadbed. It was whisper quiet. Takes track nails really well, too.
-Crandell
After my experiance earlier, I have been paying more attention the noise on my railroad. In this case, a train went from a non-ballasted section of track to a ballasted section of track with no change in the noise level. If anything the ballasted section might have been a little quieter. The ballast was installed with white glue, but, the ties are wood. Hmmm...
South Penn
rrebell SouthPenn Liquatex is available from Amazon. South Penn You linked to the gel, not the liquid.
SouthPenn Liquatex is available from Amazon. South Penn
Liquatex is available from Amazon.
You linked to the gel, not the liquid.
Any flavor you want. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Darts-crafts&field-keywords=Liquitex+Professional+Matte
I've used both matte medium and white glue for ballasting. The only difference I've noticed is that white glue is cheaper.
Wayne
Michael's sells Liquatex (a known brand) in two sizes, 8 & 16oz in store and I use a 50% off coupon. Part of the proublem is using plywood. I use foam and it transmits sound much less but to realy get rid of the sound you need to eleminate the drum, haven't gotten to that part on my layout as the skirting will eliminate a lot of it. I experimented with covering the bottom of a module and 1/2 the sound seemed to go away (and I wasn't very carefull with doing the mockup). Was thinking of getting a sound meter, they are cheap, but I get tired of having to reinvent the wheel, too many people are tied for some reason to the way something was done, to do new and better ideas. They said not to use beaded foam, I tested it and looked up date on a fire ferensic web site and found that the way we use it, that was hogwash, I find a lot of this stuff, as my daughter says, the internet is our friend!
What matte medium are you buying from Michael's? When I do a search for it on Michael's site the only clear matte medium that comes up is Modge Podge.
I've been using caulk to glue cork roadbed on 1/2" ply, then paint/seal the roadbed with enamel wall paint, then glue the track onto the roadbed with the caulk, then Scenic Express natural stone ballast with diluted white glue.
I get very little noise with the track just sitting on painted roadbed (stuck on with double sided tape or nailed down in spots). The noise is much louder when the track is caulked down, and noisier yet when ballasted. Diesels are still pretty quiet but wheel noise from steamers is very noticable. Double-heading two Spectrum 2-4-0's is the worst even with the speed tables carefully set.
I just laid some new track on cork roadbed using push pins through some of the spike holes, then cut the pins flush with the ties. I am thinking of skipping the caulk and ballasting the track as-is. Does flex track have to be firmly spiked down or glued down before ballasting? I don't want any trouble down the road but thinking skipping this might reduce the noise.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
Matt medium is the way to go, on a 4 to one ratio, you get alot. I can buy matt medium at Michael's for $12 for 16oz or equal to 4 bottles of thw Woodland Scenics stuff, enough to do my entire 15x30 layout almost (I have a rather large yard that is covered in ballast).
I was making some up grades to a setion of track that was not ballasted. About 2' away was a section of track that was ballasted. When I was finished I pushed , by hand, two passenger cars to check the track work. When the cars rolled onto the ballasted section, the noise increased by at least 50%. I never noticed this noise before.
The ballasted track was done years ago using diluted white glue on cork roadbed. The roadbed was nailed to 3/4" plywood.
I'm not going to rip out the track that is ballasted, but I will rethink how I do the next section of track.
IMO, most of the noise comes from ballasting the track, which effectively allows the vibration to bypass much of the preventative measures used when installing the roadbed and the track.
I have read different modelers trying different combinations, but I have not yet heard of anyone trying something that Hornblower mentioned above....
Isolating the ballast from the subroadbed by using waxed paper on the subroadbed to create a small gap,then removing the paper after the ballast has hardened.
A lot of modelers mention how the noise increases after they ballast, so experimenting with this installation technique might be educational.
- Douglas
I will not dispute the detailed technical advice regarding various methods of sound control outlined above, but I will suggest a much simpler approach that I have found to produce quiet results, results that are more than "good enough."
My benchwork is open grid framing covered by 1/2" plywood screwed not glued) to the framing. 1/2" Homasote sheet is fastened by screws (not glued) to the plywood. This Homasote sheet-though not perfectly uniform in thickness-is uniform enough with the provision of a very few track shims at low spots and minimum sanding at high spots (primarily at joints). This sheet is the "roadbed" to which spurs and sidings are attached.
Actual roadbed is Homabed attached to the Homasote sheet with brads (not glued).
Track is Walthers/Shinohara Code 83 spiked (not nailed or glued) to the Homabed and Homasote.
I have not yet ballasted the track, so its affect on the assembly is yet to be heard, but trains running on the above-described assembly are very quiet, generating only wheel noise and clickety-clacking over the joints.
Dante
That was actually once sold as roadbed. It's ALMOST sticky enough to hold the track with no adhesive or nails. AMI Instant Roadbed. Some people liked it. A friend of mine used it on part of his N scale layout, over time the track let go. It's still solidly stuck to the plywood though. I would not trust it to be self-adhesive, but it should be a decent option.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
An article by Pelle Soeborg got me thinking about when I used to install furnaces and A/C during college, and the tape we used to seal ducting. I'm considering using this product. Two strips side-by-side will be the same width and thickness as cork roadbed, will help navigate curves like cork roadbed, is self-adhesive (sticks like heck), and seems to round off at the edges. $9 for 25' - not too bad, and cheaper than cork at many outlets.http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=9591Whatcha think guys?
Have fun!
Dan
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
What is "green goo"?
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
A lot of people look to the roadbed. But i also find gaps in the track to be noisy. Also having well running wheel journals (oil/greese in very light quantities) helps.
Hard ballast does conduct vibrations which can generate sound. But its irregular surface serves to diffuse sound coming the train itself. (There's a difference between reflected (Sound absorbtion and reflection) and transmitted sound (STC/SRI)...each has a unit of measure #)
As someone who built home theaters and studied it extensively (coupling damping transmission and reflection) you would best consult the home theater build thread at avsforums. I can also recommend green goo between the roadbed and sub roadbed as a starting point along with minimizing gaps and keeping your journals smooth running
I'm not an expert in it like some. But I did build 5/8" Drywall with green goo and 1/2" dry wall on top of that. These are decoupled walls using RSIC clips on staggered stud 2x4's on 2x6 plates. And the results are quite impressive.And my subwoofers sit on a sand pile (mass damping) and the flooring or rubber feet. Even my door has rubber seals to keep sound from escaping.
One roadbed material I haven't seen mentioned is foam pipe insulation. It is 2" wide and 1/8" thick and has glue on one side. Here is one example from Lowes.
This one says foil and foam. The type I have used is plain black foam with glue on one side.
A few years ago I read an article on hand laying track. The author suggested using latex paint as the glue for the ties and/or the road bed. He also said this would act like a sound reducer. With all the talk of latex glue, he might be right. I did a test on a piece of plywood to see if the paint worked as glue. It does and the ties are permanently attached to the plywood. As for sound reduction, I don't know.
There are some advantages to using latex paint. It's cheaper than matte medium and caulk. It's really cheap if you find the color you want in the reject bin of the paint mixer. I have a gallon of flat light brown ( dried dirt color ) latex paint that has to be 15 years old. I use it as the base paint of my scenery and roadbed. In the next few months I am planning on installing about 80' of hand laid track directly to a 5/8" thick plywood base. I am thinking of using latex paint as the glue as I have to paint the plywood anyway. I usually use white glue on cork. It will be an interesting experiment.
Did you ballast after? I'm wondering if the drenching with "wet water" (water and detergent or water & alcohol) and diluted matte medium would make the dry wall swell and be uneven, giving the track waves we do not want.
Thanks for this information. I'll definitely try the matte medium when ballasting and also to vary densities of supporting & mounting materials. Drywall. Hmmm. I usually try to avoid it. ;-) But thanks for these tips. I read of people using foam "camper tape" & cork combos-and the matte medium for ballast came up too for reasons you describe. I wonder about the life of foam tape, whether it will crumble and decline over the years. Cheers, G
Sounds like a good combination of noise limiting methods. Let us know how happy you are with the results. Cheers, G
Schuylkill and Susquehanna Thanks for all the help, but there are a couple things that might affect the sound deadening solution. I have a few sound-equipped locomotives and hope to have the rest of my locos equipped with sound in the next year or two. The layout is going to be partially built off the wall and partially supported by a box of 2x4s in the middle of the peninsula. The layout also must be able to be disassembled in sections that are no bigger than about 30" by 5'. I plan to do what was done on the Mississippi Alabama and Gulf (see the latest issue of GMR) and use 1x2 or 1x3 open grid modules over 1x3 stringers atop the brackets. I also plan to have a train elevator (not powered) along the back side of the peninsula. Naturally using concrete for the roadbed won't work because of weight, but it's interesting because the extreme mass must dampen vibrations. Rubber isolators between the shelf and wall are a possibility, but the screw into the wall could transmit the vibrations as well as the shelf bracket. If I do put rubber there, then the shelf and backdrop would have to have rubber behind them as well. What I meant by using homosote insulators was that the roadbed would be nailed/screwed to one part of the homosote, and the rider would be nailed/screwed to another part. Thinking about it now, I believe that it would be easier to just make the risers out of 1/2" homosote with risers every 16" or so. The roadbed is going to be 1/2" ply as I said. That, cork roadbed, and matte medium holding the ballast should dampen any vibrations. Any thoughts now that I've clarified a few points?
Thanks for all the help, but there are a couple things that might affect the sound deadening solution.
I have a few sound-equipped locomotives and hope to have the rest of my locos equipped with sound in the next year or two. The layout is going to be partially built off the wall and partially supported by a box of 2x4s in the middle of the peninsula. The layout also must be able to be disassembled in sections that are no bigger than about 30" by 5'. I plan to do what was done on the Mississippi Alabama and Gulf (see the latest issue of GMR) and use 1x2 or 1x3 open grid modules over 1x3 stringers atop the brackets. I also plan to have a train elevator (not powered) along the back side of the peninsula.
Naturally using concrete for the roadbed won't work because of weight, but it's interesting because the extreme mass must dampen vibrations.
Rubber isolators between the shelf and wall are a possibility, but the screw into the wall could transmit the vibrations as well as the shelf bracket. If I do put rubber there, then the shelf and backdrop would have to have rubber behind them as well.
What I meant by using homosote insulators was that the roadbed would be nailed/screwed to one part of the homosote, and the rider would be nailed/screwed to another part. Thinking about it now, I believe that it would be easier to just make the risers out of 1/2" homosote with risers every 16" or so. The roadbed is going to be 1/2" ply as I said. That, cork roadbed, and matte medium holding the ballast should dampen any vibrations.
Any thoughts now that I've clarified a few points?
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!