rrinker Thinbg is, the way the layout is built right now, there is absolutely no reason for a second power pack. A simple stub siding to park the mainline loco on, with a switch to shut off power, will allow the road loco to cut off and go park, while the yard loco comes out and grans the train. With just one loop around, there's no way for one loco to run up mileage while the other is used to switch cars. On something more complex, like my plan or the others that have been presented, hooking up 2 cab control would actually allow more operation, because 2 traisn can be in motion at a time. There's almost enough room on my plan for one loco to work the 2 track yard while another orbits the outer loop, then periodically drops to the inside to switch the industries, or drop off cars for the switch engine to grab. --Randy
Thinbg is, the way the layout is built right now, there is absolutely no reason for a second power pack. A simple stub siding to park the mainline loco on, with a switch to shut off power, will allow the road loco to cut off and go park, while the yard loco comes out and grans the train. With just one loop around, there's no way for one loco to run up mileage while the other is used to switch cars.
On something more complex, like my plan or the others that have been presented, hooking up 2 cab control would actually allow more operation, because 2 traisn can be in motion at a time. There's almost enough room on my plan for one loco to work the 2 track yard while another orbits the outer loop, then periodically drops to the inside to switch the industries, or drop off cars for the switch engine to grab.
--Randy
Actually 2 power packs are needed. Once the yard is complete while the one power pack is operating the mainline train I will use the second to park rolling stock in the order I need them and get them ready to haul onto the mainline. Because of the constant forward/reverse and change in speed for the yard loco the second power pack is required. I thought it better to install it and starting using it now than wait.
In other words while I am operating the yard loco in the yard the train on the mainline will be running at a constants speed and direction.
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SUX V R40 RiderRemember I am not running DCC and have 2 power packs. One operates the mainline with a toggle switch to turn the passing siding used to park the mainline, (blue), loco on when I am running the yard loco on the mainline. The other power pack operates the yard only. Insulated rail joiners are used at each end of the passing siding as well as at the first turnout, and currently the only, used for the yard entrance. If I were to build a second runaround within the mainline, connected by turnouts and with the yard connecting to it, would I need a third power pack? Or could I block it in such a way that would not be necessary?
If I were to build a second runaround within the mainline, connected by turnouts and with the yard connecting to it, would I need a third power pack? Or could I block it in such a way that would not be necessary?
First you ignore the fact that you have a loop. You have an east and a west.
When you approach the siding from the points, there is no real way for you (or for the BNSF for that matter) to spot cars on that siding. What BNSF would do is just bypass the siding and continue on to wherever the train makes its turn to come back. Then you service this siding on the return trip.
I have also seen BNSF put locomotives at both ends of the train to work a siding like this, but not so much any more. The Coal, Grain and OIL trains that come through here do not stop. The LOCAL from Dickinson will work the trailing point sidings on the way east and the facing point sidings (Now magically trailing point sidings on the way west.
ROAR
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SUX V R40 Rider But would building a passing siding on the other side as part of the yard ladder also accomplish the same thing? I am asking for a reason but need to know if it would also work?
Sure, just set up the spur for the main line loco as part of the ladder on the yard track.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain SUX, The suggestion being made is to add a spur on the passing siding to park the main line loco. See if this diagram helps. The main line loco, moving clock wise, uncouples from it cars (blue), enters the siding, and backs onto the isolated spur. The siding is actually now wired as part of the main line and is not isolated, just the spur is isolated. Now that the main line loco is parked, the yard loco moves clockwise through the passing siding and uncouples its cars (red) and then continues clockwise to reach the parked main line cars (blue) on the main line line. Then, moving counter clock wise, the yard loco and cars passes the yard switch and then backs the cars into the yard. Lastly, the main line loco exits the spur, backs through the siding and out onto the main line moving in reverse to connect to the yard cars (red) sitting on the main line. Isn't this what you are trying to accomplish? Rich
SUX,
The suggestion being made is to add a spur on the passing siding to park the main line loco.
See if this diagram helps.
The main line loco, moving clock wise, uncouples from it cars (blue), enters the siding, and backs onto the isolated spur.
The siding is actually now wired as part of the main line and is not isolated, just the spur is isolated.
Now that the main line loco is parked, the yard loco moves clockwise through the passing siding and uncouples its cars (red) and then continues clockwise to reach the parked main line cars (blue) on the main line line. Then, moving counter clock wise, the yard loco and cars passes the yard switch and then backs the cars into the yard.
Lastly, the main line loco exits the spur, backs through the siding and out onto the main line moving in reverse to connect to the yard cars (red) sitting on the main line.
Isn't this what you are trying to accomplish?
dehusman I suggest the OP read some books on yard design and conventional DC block control. This is really old school, pretty much any book from the 1950's on will give an answer. A switching lead or engine spur is the obvious answer. The risk is that Kato Unitrack makes the footprint take up about twice the space of conventional sectional track and will tremendously impact capacity of the tracks. I have never worked with Kato track but I assume they have to have some sort of insulated joints. and a method to isolate blocks. From the pictures, I can't understand what the operation is. I assume the "yard" is the singe ended spur on the "left" side of the layout and the siding is the double ended track on the other side of the loop. Why is the switcher on the wrong end of the cut to switch the yard? Why is the main track engine on the other side of the layout? If the main track engine is going to be picking up a train out of the yard, shouldn't it be next to the yard? I would think reading some books could help the OP in many aspects.
I suggest the OP read some books on yard design and conventional DC block control. This is really old school, pretty much any book from the 1950's on will give an answer. A switching lead or engine spur is the obvious answer. The risk is that Kato Unitrack makes the footprint take up about twice the space of conventional sectional track and will tremendously impact capacity of the tracks. I have never worked with Kato track but I assume they have to have some sort of insulated joints. and a method to isolate blocks.
From the pictures, I can't understand what the operation is. I assume the "yard" is the singe ended spur on the "left" side of the layout and the siding is the double ended track on the other side of the loop.
Why is the switcher on the wrong end of the cut to switch the yard?
Why is the main track engine on the other side of the layout? If the main track engine is going to be picking up a train out of the yard, shouldn't it be next to the yard?
I would think reading some books could help the OP in many aspects.
First nothing about this is prototypical. Second the one siding is just the start of the yard ladder and is not complete. I felt it best to solve the problem of trapping the loco once it became evident before I continue with building the yard ladder. Third the yard loco is where I parked it temporarily to take the photo. Here is another photo that will show how I need/want to park the yard loco on a yard siding with cars, regardless of which yard siding it it:
This is just an example only showing 3 cars. The sidiing will be as long as I can make it. I need the yard loco to always be parked at the end shown, no matter what siding it is parked on. If I build the siding shown as a passing siding, then build in more turnouts onto it I can use this passing siding to park the yard loco on when it is sitting idle and only use the bumpered sidings to park the rolling stock on.
The idea of this build is to have strictly a rail yard with nothing but advertising pieces for the rolling stock. It is a fantasy build. Nothing prototype about it.
richhotrain Randy, don't get me wrong. I like your plan a lot. It just remains to be seen how receptive the OP will be to such modifications. Rich
Randy, don't get me wrong. I like your plan a lot.
It just remains to be seen how receptive the OP will be to such modifications.
I am receptive to a second runaround, but only if there is no other way to avoid it. That is why I brought up building a passing or pass through siding as part of the yard entrance. This way when the rolling stock is parked on the mainline I can pass it to which ever end I need to couple to with the yard loco to park the cars for the mainline loco to pick up. It will also help me keep the yard loco at the one end of the yard sidings so it is not trapped at the end with the bumper.
I am not asking which is better, that I think is a matter of opinion. I am asking, while a second runaround will work, will avoiding a second runaround and by building a passing siding as part of the yard work?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Remember I am not running DCC and have 2 power packs. One operates the mainline with a toggle switch to turn the passing siding used to park the mainline, (blue), loco on when I am running the yard loco on the mainline. The other power pack operates the yard only. Insulated rail joiners are used at each end of the passing siding as well as at the first turnout, and currently the only, used for the yard entrance.
That's why I made both suggestions. However my 4x8 plan should be workable, it;s 22" radius outside and actually over 18" inside, I forget exactly what I used but I still have the file somewhere. It won't be suitable for modern autoracks and 89 foot container flats, but for the type of stuff shown, it will work fine. I suspect the curves in the OP's are all 18", so despite missing the straight bit ont he 4' sides, my plan actually has more gentle curves.
hon30critter Can somebody explain to me why my suggestion of adding a small isolatable spur for the mainline locomotive off of the passing siding doesn't work. The yard locomotive is blocked in by only one thing - that is the main line locomotive. So, build a spur off of the passing siding to get the mainline locomotive out of the way and the yard locomotive is free to go were it wants. Dave
Can somebody explain to me why my suggestion of adding a small isolatable spur for the mainline locomotive off of the passing siding doesn't work. The yard locomotive is blocked in by only one thing - that is the main line locomotive. So, build a spur off of the passing siding to get the mainline locomotive out of the way and the yard locomotive is free to go were it wants.
Based upon the OP's comments to date, I suspect that he will reject Randy's proposal to build a double main line with crossovers, particularly since it will require the removal of straight tracks on the ends of the ovals and tighter curves.
For that reason, I think that Dave's suggestion of adding a small isolatable spur for the mainline locomotive off of the passing siding makes sense and it is certainly a workable solution.
If I understand the OP correctly, with the passing siding clear of the main line locomotive, the yard engine would pull the cars from the yard through the passing siding, uncouple the cars, proceed forward around the oval, couple to the cars left on the main line by the main line locomotive, pull forward past the turnout to the yard and then back the cars into the yard.
If that is correct, it seems like it would make more sense to move the right hand yard turnout up higher and make it a left hand turnout to the yard. This would permit the yard loco to uncouple the yard cars above the passing siding, roll the yard loco through the passing siding, reverse and couple the cars on the main line left there by the main line loco, then pull forward past the relocated yard turnout and back the cars into the yard.
The OP's biggest problem will come once the full yard ladder is built. Space will be at a premium on this 4' x 8' layout.
It would work fine. I just think there'd be more 'operational value' using that extra turnout to make the yard have 2 tracks to sort cars on, instead of one.
Add a bit more and this all fits in a 4x8:
Operating this virtual I was able to spent a considerable amount of time shuffling cars around and then delivering them to industry spots on the bottom.
Seems simple enough but perhaps I am missing something.
Thanks
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi
Looking at what you have first take out the straights in the ends and close in the loop a bit.
move the crossing loop points back so they are the last curve before hitting the straight run
This will give you a needed longer crossing loop probably the longest you are going to get.
You need a crossing loop of the same size where your yard is to be hence the need to take out the straight on each end to make room for both crossing loops.
Start your yard as close to one the switches as you can this way you can get the maximum length your going to get on the holding tracks then have a have a point take off somewhere to the industry or industries you want.
A short head shunt in the yard can hold the yard shunter out the way till its needed and make shunting operations easyier. Idealy you don't want to foul the main line but on a small layout this is generaly not possable.
Don't worry about how close the two crossing loops will look at this point in time when the scenery goes in the illusion of space can be created.
Even though its not what you want try your best to get the track work good enough that you can push your train all the way around the layout both ways derailment free.
A solid well built base and the best track laying you can muster are the best foundation you can give your layout.
regards John
Pushing cars all the way around the 4' x 8' layout is a long way to move the rolling stock without the risk of derailment. I am going to be moving more cars that what is in shown in the photos.
I think what I need from what has been described is a pass through siding for the first part of the yard. This way I can park the cars as shown on the one side of the oval. pull ahead with the yard loco. reverse, travel through the siding to the other end of it and keep going to grab the cars on the other side parked next to the passing siding where the mainline loco sits. Haul them to the yard then connect to the cars to be hauled with the mainline loco.
The only problem I see with this is it will make the yard sidings shorter than I originally wanted because it will push the turnout further in. Unless anyone can recommend a way around this?
My first thought was to make both sidings double ended and add a stub ended siding to the one you want to serve industries. You could add more stub enders if you wanted.
My layout is very similar. I can get cars into the stub sidings using a loco going either direction, however, my usual procedure is to drop a car off on the passing siding and let the loco that has the sidings as trailing point do the switching. Mine is a small single track line, local freights in both directions.
Have fun,
Richard
How about putting a small spur off of the passing siding and using that to park the mainline locomotive? You can isolate the spur and leave power on the passing siding so the siding is available to the switcher.
You need another runaround.
And what's wrong with the loco pushing cars? That's standard operating procedure for switching, the switch engine goes in, grabs a cut of cars, pulls them out, then pushes them back in to different tracks to rearrange the train. You'd get more value of of another turnout by making the yard 2 stub tracks than by completing the the 'loop' as our friends across the pond call it and making the yard double ended like the siding you put on the other side.
As to how many cars you can leave in various places, the primar limiter is the length of those passing sidings, looks like 3, maybe 4 cars tops will still allow the loco or loco and rest of train to get around. Can't help that, only fix it to make the layout bigger.
As the title says I need help freeing and/or preventing one of my locomotives from being trapped.
I am using 2 locomotives on my layout. One will run on the mainline around the oval while the other parks rolling stock preparing them to be put on the mainline to be hauled around the track. When I use the yard loco. to park the cars on the mainline I park the mainline loco. on a passing siding that is turned off so the yard loco can run on the mainline without problems until it returns to the yard and the mainline loco can resume operating. The yard is controlled by its own power pack which is blocked from the mainline.
The passing siding is not going to be used to park rolling stock on it, just to park the mainline loco. on it. Before the mainline loco is pulled onto the passing siding the cars are uncoupled from it and left parked on the mainline. Then the yard loco. pulls out of the yard with the cars it is going to park for the mainline loco to haul. After it parks them it will then connect to the other parked cars to haul to the yard.
The problem is the yard loco will be easily trapped. I need help figuring out how to prevent this before I build the yard sidings any further than I have.
I do not care if the yard loco connects to the rolling stock from the front or the back, but I do not want to push the cars around the oval. The only time I want to push is when I am parking them on the yard sidings.
Here are photos showing what I have built so far:
The blue loco on the passing siding is the mainline loco. The rolling stock on the mainline next to it were parked by the blue loco befire it was parked on the passing siding.
On the other side of the layout is the yard loco with rolling stock parked on the mainline.
As you can see the yard loco is trapped. How do I prevent this?
I need to know what to add or change as I build in the remaining yard sidings to the ladder. The current siding is not complete as you can see I can add more length to it.
Do I use a Wye connected to the yard ladder so I can turn the yard loco around? Do I need to some how figure out a way to put a loop on the inside of the mainline oval as a turn around? I'd rahter not put a loop in as it wil ltake up to much space that I need to use for the yard ladder.
Or is there a smuch simpler way to keep the yard loco from being trapped that I am not seeing?
Remember I don't care if the yard loco connects to the rolling stock form the front or the back, as long as it is NOT pushing the cars on the mainline to get to the yard. It is fine if the yard loco pushes the rolling stock onto to the yard sidings so it can be be parked at the siding entrance near the switch as to prevent it from being trapped on a siding.