SUX V R40 Rider
SUX,
If you moved the entire passing siding tracks (the tracks on the other side of the layout relative to the photo above) closer to the edge you might have enough room to replace the short straight track thats at the far end of this photo, with a left hand turnout. This will give you a long enough siding by which to build a train longer than 3 or 4 cars, without having to go all the way around to the other side of the layout. As you noted before, this switch is needed to provide an engine "escape" ("escape" being the answer, BTW, for something that is "trapped" ).
You can begin to build the yard tracks right off of the switch that is closest to us by using another left hand turnout, right where the loco is sitting, obviously having the diverging tracks of the turnout forming what is now the curve of the yard track. It looks like you have enough room for about two yard tracks in addition to the siding escape. That's all you need for a small layout anyway.
This should solve the problem of your first issue; allowing the engine to escape and building a somewhat longer train and having decent sized yard tracks.
You presented another issue when you said you want to have one train running while building another train in the yard. You need a yard lead or drill track long enough to allow the yard engine to work the yard without fouling the main. The solution to the first problem does not solve this issues because you would be still using the main as the yard lead.
A plan like Randy's or Paulus' is about the only way you can switch a yard while having a mainline train orbiting.
- Douglas
Doughless A plan like Randy's or Paulus' is about the only way you can switch a yard while having a mainline train orbiting.
SUX, take a moment and give a close look to the second track diagram that Paul provided earlier in this thread.
You can retain your wiring methods and maximize your multi-loco operations at the same time using that track diagram.
Rich
Alton Junction
My last comment was a bit extreme. IF you replaced the short straight with a left hand switch to form a passing siding, the yard could come off the siding in the other direction, by using a left hand switch where the blue car is in the photo. The yard tracks would point towards us, instead of away from us.
This would allow for the curved part of that new siding to act as a yard lead/drill track. Although you could only switch a few cars at a time while another train orbited, its better than nothing.
richhotrain Doughless A plan like Randy's or Paulus' is about the only way you can switch a yard while having a mainline train orbiting. SUX, take a moment and give a close look to the second track diagram that Paul provided earlier in this thread. You can retain your wiring methods and maximize your multi-loco operations at the same time using that track diagram. Rich
You're thinking what I am intending to do cannot be done unless I add a second runaround or portion of a second runaround with 2 yards within the first run around despite the diagram you showed me with the spur? Is this what you are saying? That I have to build in at least a part of a second runaround with not one, but 2 yards to obtain my objective of operating the yard loco within the yard only while the other train is running on the mainline?
SUX V R40 Rider richhotrain Doughless A plan like Randy's or Paulus' is about the only way you can switch a yard while having a mainline train orbiting. SUX, take a moment and give a close look to the second track diagram that Paul provided earlier in this thread. You can retain your wiring methods and maximize your multi-loco operations at the same time using that track diagram. Rich You're thinking what I am intending to do cannot be done unless I add a second runaround or portion of a second runaround with 2 yards within the first run around despite the diagram you showed me with the spur? Is this what you are saying? That I have to build in at least a part of a second runaround with not one, but 2 yards to obtain my objective of operating the yard loco within the yard only while the other train is running on the mainline?
No, not at all, that is not what I am thinking. The diagram that I drew will work just fine and suit your needs.
If you follow this thread closely, as I am sure that you have, i have consistently supported you and what you are trying to do, I completely understand your limited objective of using two power packs to perform your operations. And, as I have said before, that is fine.
What I said in my previous message is to take a look at Paul's second track diagram before you dismiss it. It completely adopts your planning objectives, but it also increases the opportunity and flexibility to move around a lot more rolling stock without fouling the main line.
The other thing to take note of is that Paul is not suggesting a second yard, What he has drawn is a single yard at the bottom of the daigram to meet your desire to create a yard ladder. In the upper portion of the diagram, which is not a yard, he has provided the required spur to park your main line loco as you desire, created a yard lead to avoid fouling the main line, added an optional track as an industry spur, and added an optional crossover for immediate access to the main line.
I did label most of the tracks, though semantics still might cause problems.
The word yard is used in way to many ways. To me it is a couple or more spurs where a train can be build. You'll need at least two of those spurs.
When the yard is used for parking empties not in use at the moment I call it a storage yard. When space is needed to temporarely park cars which have to be (un)loaded as soon as possible (at their appropriate spot) I call it an overflow spur (or yard if more then one track is involved).
Single ended tracks where (un)loading takes place are usually called spurs. A double ended siding allows trains from both directions to serve industries along that track. Confusing it with a passing siding is easily made. On a passing siding two mainline train can pass each other; industries would block this track which is so much needed for mainline operation.
Yard tracks or spurs always need a tail (drill or lead). If this lead should be a dedicated track off the main depends on operational issues. When only one train is running it is not needed at all, the main doubles as a yard lead. For swithing only a few industries, time spend on the main might not be restricting mainline operation to much. Building a train might take quite some time, especially on a tiny model railroad the through-freight is back in a few seconds. Letting it orbit around will make yard and industrial switching completely impossible. Or vise versa.
On my first plan you will find two industries: an oil dealer and a warehouse; the latter has a second track in front of it for overflow cars. The switcher is parked on the engine service track. I would add a connection to the remainder of the national railroad system by means of an interchange track. (The blue track on Byron Henderson's plan) On my drawings the yard and its lead are coloured red!
Tracks that might be used by both engines will have to wired the CAB-CONTROL way.
Smile
paul
I'll just step into your conversasion with Rich to try to clear things up, hopefully.
The solution to your first dilemma of preventing a locomotive from becoming trapped AND not circling the entire loop to untrap it was explained by Rich's diagram. You can either have a new stub track coming off of the existing siding OR turn the exisitng yard track into a siding by adding a left hand switch coming off the main. I think your response acknowledges that.
The solution to your second dilemma of having a train orbiting the loop while you switch the yard can ONLY be solved by having a yard lead that is separate from the main line. This is a common issue when arranging a trackplan. Paulus' 2 diagrams show this problem and color codes the lead red. If you place a loco with a string of cars on the red track in diagram 1, which you will have to do in order to move from one track to the next (climb the ladder) the orbiting train will have to stop until the red track is cleared. Diagram 2 shows the red line separate from the main line. In that arrangement, the yard loco does not foul the main when gathering or distributing cars along the yard tracks.
It may also be easier to understand if you just unfolded your loop on paper and drew a 30 foot mainline with a yard at one end and your passing siding at the other and see how a train can pass by another that's working the yard. The separate yard lead would run parrellel to the main line a good distance. Because of the table you have to work with, the two ends get folded together to form a loop.
Hope this helps
Hi!
Wish I could add something constructive to this thread - but I'm at a loss for words...............
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
mobilman44 Hi! Wish I could add something constructive to this thread - but I'm at a loss for words...............
Well '' What are we going to mess up today,Beev'', '' I don't know, Wally ''
Cheers,
Frank
Add one right hand switch immediately after the yard switch on the main, forming a "crossover" type track arrangement. Add 3 ft of track beond teh crossover to form a switching lead. Put one insulated joint in one rail in the switch lead, near the switch. Bridge the the joint with a SPST switch at minimum.
Done.
You can isolate the yard engine while the main line engine works the yard. You can switch cars while the mainline train orbits. No other wiring, electrical or power control changes need to be made.
The other plans will give you more operation, but adding one RH switch, 3-4 ft of track and a SPST toggle will meet your minimum requirements.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
For me, I can't see the need to run two engines at the same time on a layout this size anyway. I'd go along with the suggestion to add a spur track that one engine can sit in while the other works, then swap them around. Good place for a one- or two-stall engine house and some servicing tracks. I'd suggest maybe picking up some of the Kalmbach/MR track plan books, like the 101 and 102 books, and review the plans there for 4 x 8 layouts to see how they work...plus of course the Armstrong "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" book.
BTW the OP is using Bachmann track, not Kato.
more semantics for SUX:
fouling the main has nothing to do with wiring or other electrical issues.
It means that when you are performing switching moves on the mainline, the mainline can't be used for other traffic. Switching takes quite some time while orbiting trains are back in a few seconds. Operating both at very same time on a smaller layout is completely impossible. Unless the yard tracks and its lead are separated from the main-line tracks.
Paul
Okay, here we go:
Sux, I have a 4x8 with 2 loops using DC.
A Train circles the outside loop and I can then switch all day on the inside loop.
I can also stop the outside train and use the outer loop as a run around top prevent pushing cars.
It is similar to Randys design here:
Jim
SUX V R40 Rider Tell me if you agree with the 3 options to avid fouling the main. The first is obvious with using the recommendation of the second partial run around dedicated to the yard.The second is a longer lead into the yard that will allow the yard loco to pull forward and back up as needed without making contract with the mainline track while the mainline train is orbiting.The third option is while switching leave the yard siding closest to the mainline empty until i need to run the yard loco on it but while doing so, because the loco would have to use part of the mainline i would have to park the mainline loco on its spur off of the passing siding.
Tell me if you agree with the 3 options to avid fouling the main. The first is obvious with using the recommendation of the second partial run around dedicated to the yard.The second is a longer lead into the yard that will allow the yard loco to pull forward and back up as needed without making contract with the mainline track while the mainline train is orbiting.The third option is while switching leave the yard siding closest to the mainline empty until i need to run the yard loco on it but while doing so, because the loco would have to use part of the mainline i would have to park the mainline loco on its spur off of the passing siding.
SUX, all three options will work, and for the reasons you gave.
The second option is the most elegant not only because it allows multi-loco simultaneous operation but also because it will allow you to sort longer strings of cars.
SUX V R40 RiderThe second is a longer lead into the yard that will allow the yard loco to pull forward and back up as needed without making contract with the mainline track while the mainline train is orbiting.
This is a poor choice because it will take up valuable interior space on a limited layout. Use the main for your yard lead.
Soo Line fan SUX V R40 RiderThe second is a longer lead into the yard that will allow the yard loco to pull forward and back up as needed without making contract with the mainline track while the mainline train is orbiting. This is a poor choice because it will take up valuable interior space on a limited layout. Use the main for your yard lead.
Poor choice? That's a little harsh.
What does it take up, another 2 to 3 inches inside the main line?
richhotrain Soo Line fan SUX V R40 RiderThe second is a longer lead into the yard that will allow the yard loco to pull forward and back up as needed without making contract with the mainline track while the mainline train is orbiting. This is a poor choice because it will take up valuable interior space on a limited layout. Use the main for your yard lead. Poor choice? That's a little harsh. What does it take up, another 2 to 3 inches inside the main line? Rich
Simply being honest.
How is everything going on this? Havent had an update....