Trying different roadbed/base combinations to se which ones works out the quietest. Going to take some measurements, video a loco and cars on each one to compare the sound levels. Quietest isn;t necessarily the best, it;s the KIND of sound.
So far have some MDF, extruded foam, and plywood for base materials. Cork and Woodland Scenics foam roadbed on hand, a sample of Homabed on order. All test surfaces will be mounted on 1x4's to simulate mounting to open grid. Roadbed to base and track to roadbed will all be with caulk, I don;t see using nails or another method since caulk works so well. If I handlay track, it will be soldered to PC ties with wood ties in between, so it would also be attached with caulk. All my cars are weighted to at least NMRA weight (some of the open hoopers with cast Hydrocal loads end up alittle heavy), and all have P2K metal wheels unless they came with metal wheels already, and I will try a heavy loco such as an Atlas Trainmaster as well as a light loco such as a Bowser or P2K switcher.
Updates to come.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Are these tests being conducted with or without ballast?
If ballasted, with or without glue?
If glued, white glue or matte medium?
Rich
Alton Junction
I'd be interested in the results as well.
From a sound transmission standpoint, I say definitely no nails at all. You are right on with the caulk.
In the latest issue of MRR, which you should be receiving any day. Pele has an article on track laying and used an auto sound deadining material, either dynamat or something similar as he is in Europe.
Saw that article a while ago - the digital version gets to me like a week before my print copy.
I currently detect no difference in sound between the ballast secured with diluted Elmers and ballast secured with matte medium, all else being equal (current layout is cork on extruded foam, each itnerface secured with caulk). I have a long section with ballast applied, part of it I used matte medium and part I went back to white glue because matte medium is significantly more expensive and didn;t seem any different.
Previous experiments, way back before I built my previous layout using extruded foam, I had a small piec and tested track layoung and turnout mounting before starting the actual layout. If anythign it was QUIETER after ballasting - with white glue diluted with alcohol, not water - th water NEVER works, our water is very hard and even with a couple of drops o dish soap it never soaks in, it just makes a hard crust. Diluted with alcohol and it soaks in in the manner Cody mentions in the Feb MR, ballast along the center, drip the glue on from otside the rails, then apply the ballast for the shoulders and apply glue to that.
I will probably run through all the combos without ballast and then ballast and try again.
Randy:
This is a great experiment. It will be interesting to hear your final conclusions.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I tacked my cork roadbed down to my plywood sub-roadbed with small nails, then ballasted my Atlas Code 100 flex track and glued this down with both diluted white glue (Elmer's) and Woodland Scenics matt medium. My trains are pretty silent, which I don't find realistic and have considered putting small saw kerfs in the rail heads, so my Proto 2000 metal wheel sets will make that "Klickity-Clack" sound as they roll over the track. I only have one sound equipped loco at this time and would like to have more.
I guess my philosophy on the sounds a railroad makes is that the 1 to 1 scale railroads aren't quiet! So, why should I attempt to make my model railroad quiet?
Yes, I understand that we don't want the fakey sounds that come from a model railroad to drown out the illusion we're trying to make. How I just described laying my track has taken care of this, for me.
I don't understand why some of you feel you need to delve any farther into deadening the sound on your layouts! Still, they are your layouts and you certainly have a right to re-invent the wheel; time, after time, after time, again!
Have fun!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
My layout is built on top of a 1/2" plywood surface with Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed.
Running trains over this unballasted arrangement is quieter than running trains on track laid directly on the plywood surface without any road bed.
However, when I add Woodland Scenics Medium ballast, the sound is near totally deadened. That is the most sound deadening effect that I have experienced.
But, add a glue solution like water/matte medium and when it dries, it is almost as noisy as unballasted track laid on plywood without road bed.
That is my experience. If I thought that I could get away with it, I would spread ballast and not glue it.
I agree with NP2626. All this time and worry over the "noise" our model trains make is a little much. On one hand we almost declare war over somethings not being prototype and then want our trains to run quiet. Listen to a train passing through town sometime--anything but quiet!
Hi!
My HO layout has a high grade of 1/2 inch plywood for a base, and trackage sits on cork roadbed or sheet cork. The cork is affixed with caulk, the track (most all) is affixed with track nails and, all rolling stock has metal wheelsets.
My layout is set in the late 1950s, and of course I love the "clickety clack" sound of trains crossing rail joints. However, the layout does give off what I call a "drum effect" to some extent. Actually, when I have 3 trains running in my enclosed 11x15 layout room, it can get pretty loud. And when I turn on the locomotive sounds, well "fagettaboutit"..................
So, I fully understand Randy's quest for sound deadening. If I had to do it over, I would have given my layout more consideration in this regard. I thought the use of caulk for the roadbed would make a difference, but I have no way of knowing how much - if any - it made.
What I don't understand is why anyone would question the quest for sound deadening. If Randy or whoever feels they want that, then it is up to the rest of us to contribute positively for a solution, or to not post at all. Frankly, questioning the logic of "sound deadening" sounds like someone is just stirring the pot...........
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
My opinion is there is no problem if you follow simple guidelines as set out by previous practices. Still I did say that a person can do what they like with their railroad.
Truth be told, Randy simply was telling us about his experiment with sound on his track work.
He didn't ask any questions, and he isn't looking for any comments or advice from any of us.
He simply concluded with, Updates to come.
He also pointed out that he was not necessarily trying to deaden sound entirely.
Rather, he remarked, Quietest isn't necessarily the best, it's the KIND of sound.
So, we might all be best served by waiting to hear the outcome of his experiments.
Hi again,
In my previous post I should have clarified something........... Most of us like the "railroad sounds" from our layout (i.e. clicketty clack). Most of us don't like the sounds of electric motor powered trains reverberating a roaring sound magnified by the benchwork.
Also, "real" trains can be awfully quiet! Yes, we have the whistles and horns and coupling and the like, but we also have cars that can be pretty quiet as they roll along on welded track.
Short story..... In 1988 I was doing a stint at Mobil's Beaumont Texas refinery. One time a few of us were taking a break outside where there were two sidings. About 40 feet down from us were two 50 ft. empty boxcars. One of the fellows was standing on the track, while the rest of us were alongside the track drinking sodas and telling stories. It was a very windy day, which made a good amount of noise whipping around the buildings. At one point I looked up and the first boxcar (not coupled to the second) was rolling towards the guy standing on the track. He obviously did not see nor hear it. I jerked him off when the car was about 10 feet from him. We watched it slowly roll to the track stop, and then it made some real noise!
Sorry for the rabbit trail.......................
Interesting experiment Randy, I'm curious to find out the best combination.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Well, I'm not going to question why anyone would do practically anything on their layout, given we've "seen it all" here in the forums...
I think this is a great experiment, if for no other reason than someone is actually testing something rather than laying down an opinion and then endlessly beating it to death based on nuttin' but speculation [where's the dead horse smilie when you really need it? ]
I think it's the right philosophical approach, too, because the experimental design is really more about sound quality than sound quantity. Low rumbling might be good, as it sounds railroady, while the rattle that sounds like a kid rolling his Tonka across your workbench is strictly a model railroad sound, NOT the prototype.
In the end, I think you're generally better off with as little noise as possible from your layout. In most cases, any noise that it emits when running trains is generally not realistic.Maybe someday there will be a means to add in rail/roadbed sound effects like you can do with brake squeal on many sound decoders? It'll probably also need to incorporate a linked under-layout sub-woofer to really work well, but who knows? That might be just around the corner.
You also need to consider the effect of scale distance. We're often far enough away from our trains that -- if it was real life -- the sound would be fairly muted in comparison to the way most folks run their sound locos. I just finished turning down the volume on my motive power fleet for the third time and I think I finally have it scaled about right for my average viewing distance when operating. It's surprisingly quiet and will be a real blessing at the next ops session.
The only problem I've run into are my brass Tsunami installs. Brass can be pretty raucous at times and with the master volume turned down I'm still trying to decide if the clanks and bangs sound railroady enough to tolerate, which I suspect I must anyway except for a few places where that will be easy to correct. It'll be easier to just turn the volume back up on the affected locos.
And the jury is still out on the volume for my river noise sound effect. It's pretty low, but I think needs to be even more subtle now that I've quieted the locos more. Digitized from a high-quality stereo recording I made at the first big bridge south of Silverton on the D&S in the summer of 1998, my wife then lovingly clipped out a 5 minute digitized cut that includes #486 passing with its train, which I loaded onto an MP3 player hooked to some computer speakers. By glad to shoot anyone who wants it a copy, just PM me.
It sounds like you're there, although I may need a little more intensity at the end of the aisle that has Cascade Falls...
So there's some good reason why sound control is important, because the sounds you don't want to hear can interfere with the sounds you do want to hear.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Randy,
I am sort of surprised that you hear no difference when using white glue vs Matte Medium. I dilute the Matte Medium about 3 or 4 to 1 with water. I spray/soak the entire ballast area with 71% isopropyl and then use pipettes to apply the Matte Medium. I usually buy the Matte Medium at Hobby Lobby using their 40% off coupon. I have found it to be far superior to diluted white glue for dampening sound.
At the club, we used 2" foam, with cork roadbed attached with acrylic caulk, and the Atlas flex attached with acrylic caulk as well. We used Arizona Rock & Mineral ballast with Matte Medium to ballast the track. We did find that if the ballast 'overflowed' to the foam, we did get some sound transmission. Most of the pink foam was painted with Dutch Boy latex paint(potting soil color), and overflow ballast did not cause a sound transmission issue with the paint as an interface between the ballast and the foam.
My home layout has 1/2" plywood sub-roadbed, with either Homabed or cork for the roadbed. The initial construction used either white glue or yellow carpenters glue to attach the roadbed. Later construction used clear acrylic caulk to attach the roadbed to the plywood. The flex track was laid using track nails, and they were pulled after I ballasted(AZ R & M ballast/Matte Medium). Sound transmission is quite low. I did notice that ballast overflow to bare plywood did increase sound transmission. Painting the sub-roadbed with the 'potting soil' paint made a big difference. The Homabed area have stayed 'quiet', bit the cork areas did start getting a little of the 'drumming' with time. I suspect this happened as the cork dried out. My main lines trackage is on Homabed, the sidings/yard/spurs are on cork. The 'new' layout will have the actual roadbed(at least the cork) painted before I lay the trackage to see if that helps.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Since my business is noise control in the 1:1 world, I'd like suggest that you employ a sound level meter of some type to conduct your measurements. You can't use your video recorder since it automatically adjusts the recording sensitivity to achieve the best signal to noise level possible. There are inexpensive handheld sound level meters available (check out Part Express and Radio Shack) as well as sound level meter apps for your I-phone/I-pad. Use the "A" weighting network since that is how our ears respond to sound. Always measure the sound of your trains from the exact same distance, at the same speed and in similar ambient noise conditions (as quiet as possible). You'll be surprised to learn that certain sounds that seem louder to our ears actually produce less noise as indicated by the sound level meter. The opposite also occurs. A good visual for your videos would be shooting the meter readout as the train passes. This will enable your viewers to see exactly which track/roadbed/ballast arrangement produces the least noise since they cannot rely on the audio from the video camera.
Hornblower
Interesting insights in this thread. Back to the hobby this year, I read the article "Quiet Roadbed, Better Train Sounds" by Bob Kingsnorth in the MR Special Edition "How to Build Realistic Reliable Track". Bob tested (I haven't re-read the details) various (18) approaches over plywood subroadbed. Included of course are cork, homasote, Micore, TrackBed, etc, alone and in various combos, plus camper tape roadbed, etc.
He ranked the results 3 ways: overall, high-pitched noise (wheel-to-rail) and low-pitched noise (locos). The top choice by his method was cork on camper tape. I found it all interesting,but then went with simply cork on plywood, way down the list, 3rd from the bottom. It's an interesting reference article. I don't think it addresses ballast as well, part of the total system. He does recommend latex caulk vs nails.
My biggest issue with DCC sound is getting the locos adjusted similarly, as that is more noticeable than the track joint noise for sure, and maybe even the system (roadbed) noise. I have not yet got the track totally debugged and not yet ballasted, so my attention has been more to mechanical issues than audio aspects to date. I'll review the ballasting twists when I get to that, as I would not have considered sound impacts of any choices in ballast application.
Thanks for sharing this info.
In a real world aside, we live about 1/3 mile from some UP tracks, and the train horns are a nice feature from this distance. But the town is (at $MM expense) installing quiet zones for most of the town, partly due to increasing traffic and the 'quality of life" impact (those living next to the track may not find the noises as cool as I do at a distance (just heard a horn!)). So, I hope all modern era sound fans are moving to a more realistic sound reduction mode. Me, I'm modeling the transition era, when the horn (whistles) sounded apenty. But my supervisor seems to think the sounds are unrealistically loud (from another floor), even with the master volume toned down. Am I destined for earphones?
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
There's also a MUCH older article by George Allen (part of the Tuxedo Junction series) with a lot of different roadbed options that were tested.
However, like sacrificing my own money for an MRC decoder so I could sya how bad they were based on experience instead of hearsay.. besides, it gives me something to do and an excuse to try some ME track as well.
While a sound meter would give an objective view of the overall sound level, I'd really need a spectrum analyzer to get what I'm looking for - which is the BEST sound, not LEAST sound - best I'm thinking would lead towards more low frequency rumbling and less high pitched whining.
I usually keep my sound decoders fairly low - if the other side of the room is supposed to be 10 miles away, I shouldn;t be able to hear it at all, but that's a bit too low. I crank them up for a club show, in a large open venue with lots of people milling about, they HAVE to be loud to hear them at all.
Speaking of, I can probably skip the plywood/cork combo, since that's the makeup of the club layout, with glued ballast, although I've never run trains on it when it's actually quiet like in my house.
As for the glue/matte medium, I wish we had a Hobby Lobby here, 40% off what I paid at whichever of the two palces I got it at (we have AC Moore and Michael's, forget where I got it) would make it price competetive with a similarly large container of Elmer's. However - this may be the key. I dilute my glue with 70% isopropyl, not water - and I find that what remains in the cup left over never really gets hard liek of you spread out some Elmer's and let it dry. It gets kind of rubbery. Never was into chemistry enough to figure out if isoproply alcohol plus PVA makes something special. Could be why I hear no difference as the train runs from the ballast secured with glue tot he section secured with matte medium. The unsecured bit, what little is left, essentially sounds the same as unballasted track.
This layout is definitely louder than my previous one. Not sure if it's the cork instead of WS foam, or the two layers of 2" foam I used this time - probbaly a combo of both. I shouldn;t have done that, but I had the first section done before I moved, and it was going to be just a standalone ISL, and I needed to be able to carve down that far, before I got a large land grant, and since I had one module made I just made the rest the same way.
As for 'quiet zones' on the real railroads - I think that's a DUMB idea. Works great as far as the people who live there (and it's not like the railroad was invisible - if you don't like hearing trains, perhaps you shouldn;t buy a house near the tracks...), but as soon as the first idiot gets hit at one of the new protected crossings (with of course, the headling "Train hits family!" as if the train veered off the tracks and deliberately hit the idiot driving around the gates) then suddenly it's anti-train central.
I suspect the foam may be the culprit. Like you, I tend to reduce the volume of my sound decoders. At home, I cannot really hear them 20 ft away at the engine terminal.
At the club, my engines are very quiet compared to most(usually the guys have the sound turned way up). This 'max' sound seems to be a club thing, as most clubs I have visited seem to have the sound decoders turned up(maybe its a 'guy' thing). Myself, I want the sound to be part of the total experience, not the 'slams you in the face' item. But at shows, the visitors really like to hear the loud train sounds....
Keep us posted with your testing - I have a new layout starting this spring and would like input on design/construction to reduce layout 'noise'.
My previous layout didn;t have much 'undesireable' noise, and that was a single layer of 2" foam glued on top of 1x4 open grids with yellow glue. Roadbed was WS foam, caulked to the foam, and track was caulked to that. Never got around to ballasting any of it, but a seperate test peice I did, the high pitched component of the sound was reduced on the ballasted part - alcohol/white glue as the adhesive. WS ballast, which is probably lighter than the stuff made with real rock - although I can't really believe the grey color I use is made from ground walnut shells, it seems WAY too hard when trying to crush grains. Also, with the alcohol used as the diluting agent, I don;t have any issues with ballast floating away when adding the adhesive, which seems to be the major complaint against the WS vs other brands.
rrinker My previous layout didn;t have much 'undesireable' noise, and that was a single layer of 2" foam glued on top of 1x4 open grids with yellow glue. Roadbed was WS foam, caulked to the foam, and track was caulked to that. Never got around to ballasting any of it, but a seperate test peice I did, the high pitched component of the sound was reduced on the ballasted part - alcohol/white glue as the adhesive. WS ballast, which is probably lighter than the stuff made with real rock - although I can't really believe the grey color I use is made from ground walnut shells, it seems WAY too hard when trying to crush grains. Also, with the alcohol used as the diluting agent, I don;t have any issues with ballast floating away when adding the adhesive, which seems to be the major complaint against the WS vs other brands. --Randy
So, Randy, it's been 2 months - any updates?
- Gerhard
Gerhard, thanks for bumping this thread, as I somehow missed it the first time around.
I've used both matte medium and white glue for ballasting, and like Randy, can detect no difference in the sound as trains move over the tracks. Because of this, I opted for white glue for most of the layout, as it's considerably cheaper than matte medium. I thin mine with water, and do the preliminary wetting with "wet" water, too, and have never experienced any floating Woodland Scenics ballast.I have track laid on cork roadbed, wood roadbed, plywood roadbed, and plywood sub-roadbed, plywood table-top, and plaster, and the sound/sound-deadening qualities all appear similar. My trains run on DC and aren't sound-equipped, and all trains run at a maximum speed of about 30smph, and often, much slower.What I notice most as unrealistic sounds are metal wheels on the tracks: there's absolutely no similarity, at least to me, between the sound of steel wheels on steel rail (the prototype) and plated wheels on nickel-silver rails. Higher speeds seem to exacerbate the difference, too.
This, of course, is a purely subjective observation, but the noise isn't great enough to be a concern for me.
Wayne
To be truly prototypical all sounds should be 1:87th what I hear in real life.
Sorry, no progress - had to start taking down parts of my existing layout and while I had planned a repalcement, I won't be able to build that now, so there will be no layout construction for a while - I will be working on rolling stock, structures, and locos. I do want to do the track testing, but I'm still waiting on the sample of Homabed I ordered in December. At this point I don't think I will build another 'permanent' type of layout until I have a nice big basement to build in, sometime in the next 2 years. Until then, rolling stuck, locos, and structures. The locos and rolling stock I can use at club shows, so it won't just sit there.
rrinkerTrying different roadbed/base combinations to se which ones works out the quietest. Going to take some measurements, video a loco and cars on each one to compare the sound levels. Quietest isn;t necessarily the best, it;s the KIND of sound.
Our layout has an original section with the track on cork on 1/2" ply. Our expansion is cork on 2" foam base. When a train leaves the foam and goes onto the plywood, you would swear that someone turned the sound off. And we don't run sound. The area with foam base doesn't have any scenery yet - just track (unballasted) and some buildings. I'm hopefull the the scenery will help quiet down the foam a bit.
I remember a few years ago I embarked on a soundproofing project for a compressor at work. One of the basic ideas at soundproofing is adding mass. The stuff I bought for lining this compressor box was a very heavy mat type of material. The sound absorption of this material is really amazing. So, along these lines I would expect that heavy plywood and cork would be a good base vs light weight foam for sound deadening. If one were serious enough perhpaps you could add a "Soundproofing Vinyl Barrier Acoustic Material" under the ties or use it as a road bed itself.
The other thing I ran across was this stuff called Green Glue which is a visco-elastic damping compound used to glue drywall together for sound absorption. I wonder if this would perform better than caulk? Then further, if you use the Central Valley tie strips and separate rail, if you were to glue the rail down with this stuff, maybe it could help dampen the sound right at the rail itself. Maybe cutting down the higher frequencies of the metal wheels on metal track......
When you get back around to testing, don't forget about the AMI Instant Roadbed (or similar name?). It is a sticky rubber 'ribbon'; press it onto the benchwork then press the track on top of that. Ballast is applied by pouring it generously over the track and roadbed material then pressing the loose ballast into the sticky rubber...no glue required. Recover the excess (sweeping, brushing, vacuuming, etc) and reuse.
If you can't find it at your LHS, I noticed it was used on my parents central air install to seal the pipes going into out of the plenum; maybe check a local HVAC contractor to see if you can buy a few feet of it, rather than a whole roll. Just a thought.
I'm planning a module and will glue a piece of luan over the foam where the tracks will go (actually about 1" or 1 1/2" wider than the cork). I'll glue it with a flexible caulk, as well as cork to the luan, then ballast as usual (maybe paint the luan to seal it). The idea will be to keep the ballast only on the luan and blend the ground cover between the luan and the foam with other flexible scenery. My thought is the rigid ballast/track will be isolated from the foam by the flexible caulk underneath and by the flexible groundcover on the sides. The sound issue hasn't bugged me enough to take drastic measures (I run at slow switching speeds) but think this will be valuable info for me in the future...Thanks for doing a thorough job! Congrats on your new daughter!
http://delray1967.shutterfly.com/pictures/5
SEMI Free-Mo@groups.io
New daughter? Hmm, I think I need to have a talk with someone for keeping things from me. Only new 'kid' aound here is my Pug Trixie, and she's been here almost 3 years now.
ANyway, I finally got the Homabed sample about, hmm, a month or so ago. Just playing th the samples, I really like it, but it seems liek there's always issues getting large orders delivered in any timely fashion. I have no desire to make the kind of mess it created trying to saw homasote into narrow bits, plus unless I got a planer, it wouldn;t have the uniform thickness.
I haven't fastened any materials together, but I'm sure it will work out to be a mix of two widely different density materials to provide the most sound deadening - this is where all the magic happens, with the different densities reflecting the sound differnet ways.
Interesting experiment.
The Walthers-Shinohara code 83 track I have down now is on cork sealed with latex paint, on top of 1/2" ply sub-roadbed. I used Alex Plus caulk to glue the roadbed down. About half of the track has been permanently glued in place with the caulk and the rest is set in place temporarily using double-sided carpet tape. I found it interesting that the track that is taped down is almost totally silent. The track that is caulked down is a bit noisy but acceptable. The UPS man just delivered some SE medium natural stone ballast today and I should get some of it down within the next week or so. I am planning to go with white glue and water/alcohol mix. I like the way the natural ballast looks but will the heavier weight help or hurt noise level compared to the WS ballast? If someone really wants to know I might be willing to put down a bit of the WS stuff too and report back.
I actually intended to use Homabed instead of cork and placed a large order for it early in the year. After waiting for a few months I gave up and went ahead with the cork. And three months later I finally received my Homabed (I had all but forgotten about it!) I will use the Homabed for phase 2 of my layout with exactly the same installation techniques. So eventually I will have a good comparison of the noise level for the two roadbeds. Don't hold your breath though, it will probably be sometime next year before I begin phase 2 bench work. So it will be a quite a while before I run trains on Homabed.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/