Ok...so i did my research. I read multiple articles and forum posts on ballasting. Watched hours of video on youtube. I saw the 4:1, 3:1, and 2:1 glue to water ratios used. I saw the 1 drop, 2 drops of soap detergent for a wetting agent used. I saw the spray down method, the eye dropper method, and the sprinkle method. I saw alcohol presoak utilized. I was ready for ballasting. Right. I am apparently no ballaster (<----is that a proper pronoun?)
So...here is how I did mine. 50/50 glue to water w/ 2 drops of soap added to the mix. The first batch, I did not alcohol spray the ballast before gluing and had major issues. The second batch I pre-sprayed with alcohol and the glue adhered just fine.
Here are the questions:
1. What a mess! What do you guys do to contain the stray ballast rocks? Do you tape off?
2. The alcohol spray attacks my interior latex paint I used for my layout board. Would it be better to somehow pre-soak the ballast in alcohol? Or is there another method of putting the alcohol down?
3. The ballast stained my freshly painted (but dry) railroad ties. They are not grey-ish. Should I prewash the ballast? Is there a fix for this?
4. I have successfully made one of my turnouts useless. Not sure if its rocks or glue, but it won't move. I'm sure I watched something on how to protect these, but it alluded me at the time of the crime. Any help would be helpful...duh...why its called help...sorry...its early in my day here.
I'm not at all discouraged. This is my children's Christmas Tree oval that I'm making to use for practice in all these little methods. So the fact I'm a ballasting idiot, is fine with me...lol...i'll get better. But I would like to know if I'm just that big of an idiot, or does everybody see the same issues I am the first time they ballast track. Thanks for the assist guys (gender neutral term).
Great post! Sums up my feelings pretty well. I'm developing my layout a section at a time, and ballasting is the last thing that happens. I've become so averse to the mess that I always seem to find one more thing to do first. Progress grinds to a slow crawl. It's almost like writers block for an author.
I feel your pain.
Mike
I follow Cody Grivno's methods and have had no trouble. I've yet to ballast painted track though. Are you using 91% alcohol by any chance? Should be the 70% stuff.
Dean
30 years 1:1 Canadian Pacific.....now switching in HO
Turbo,
A quick response to your questions:
1. Yeah it can be messy. I use a brush to move the ballast out of areas that I don't want it to be. If things get too far out of hand I'll vacuum it up and start again. The glue and wetting agents do run everywhere. I do mask things that don't want glue and wetting agent on them.
2. Try using wet water instead.
3. This may be the alcohol reacting with the paint and turning it grey. Try a different wetting agent.
4 Yeah turnout throw bars get glued in place. Use an eyedropper and put water on the throw bar to soften the glue. Wait a few minutes and do it again. It should eventually soften the glue to the point that the bar will move.
Use an exacto to clean out stray ballast from the area between the bar and headstock ties as well as where the points and stock rail meet.. It may take several applications of water over several days before the bar area dries without freezing the bar again. You can use a blow dryer to dry the glue while moving the bar. Be careful not to put too much force on the points or you will break them off of the bar (don't ask how I know this).
To avoid glued frozen turnouts I use a blow dryer when making the initial glue application and keep working the throw bar while drying out the glue with the hair dryer. Of course I am very careful not to flood the area with glue or wetting agent.
Good luck,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I second the recommendation to use Cody's method. I like the extra control and less mess of using the pipette, rather than spraying. You can find a video of it on this site, probably under the Expert Tips.
Wow, I like to ballast and do not seem to have problems. Make sure that you do the sides and center at the same time and then do the water and then do the glue mixture in the center so it will flow to the outside ballast as well.
You can also make a blocker of some kind so the ballast will go only to it and no farther.
I just use a piece of plastic sign to hold the ballast edges in place. Some times I do this after I have used the glue mix. Just push any flows to wards the track.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure it's the 70%. I'll also look into Cody Grivno...don't recall seeing or hearing the name, but I'm no name guru, so perhaps I have.
Also, I'll be doing some taping next time as well. Thanks for all the input guys...really appreciate it. Makes me feel a bit less "challenged" knowing that what I'm running into isn't neccesarily abnormal.
one additional question: Wet water...i think someone mentioned...this is just water with a few drops of soap added to it? Or is there something I'm not understanding about that. AND...use the wet water in lieu of alcohol?
Ok, thanks again fellas
I don't use the alcohol spray as much anymore, I use a squeeze bottle with a tapered tip and just let the alcohol (70%) run into the ballast between the tracks and then dribble the 50/50 white glue. Works great and also, to spread the ballast I use a 3/4" foam brush that I cut down to fit inside the rails. the foam doesn't let the ballast 'snap' or 'jump' around like a bristle brush does. I also do the center between the rails first and then come back and to the outsides after the scenery is done up to the roadbed. That way the ballast will cover any scenery close to the roadbed (I use the spray for this area some of the time). I also use old 'CoffeeMate' creamer bottles to store and apply the ballast. It works great once you get used to how to shake the ballast out. In fact I store all my scenic materials in these bottles.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
@farrellaa great tips! thank you very much!
Cody works for MR and has done ballasting on several of the project layouts. Check out the beer line series,part 3 in the MR videos.
I am Glad you brought this up .I am ready to start some ballasting have finished an area with a yard and main with Humpyard throws and have painted ties and rail. my plan is to ballast then a final airbrushing of light weathering on track and ballast. What you have tried and had issues with would have been the approach I was going to try. The responses on this thread are great suggestions and answers that will change my methods a bit.
Its great to see help so generously offered.
Ron High
After I have groomed the local seaside beach sand that I use, I wet it with 70% isopropyl alcohol. I apply that with a clean used wood glue plastic bottle where I cover the neck with masking tape and poke a hole with a needle. As for the glue, for three layouts now I have used a wood glue bottle with the twist-up nib. I mix the wood glue about 1/6 in favour of the water, but I also add two drops of liquid dish detergent. I also add three or four small clean pebbles to the mix for mixing.
The keys are cleanliness, control, patience, but first preparation. Comprising 'preparation' are the patient grooming of the ballast, having the right implements nearby (1" long-bristle paint brush, clean rags or paper towels, and the wetting agent and glue mix), and having time set aside in short intervals to do reasonable lengths of track at one go. Once you have dribbled the glue into the ballast, you must immediately take up a cleaning implement and carefully wipe the rail tops unless you prefer to wait untl the groomed ballast has hardened and don't mind the extra work to clean the rail tops of hard glue.
Crandell
Well, as you've probably discovered by now, there are as many ways to lay ballast as there are ways to skin a cat. Everyone has their favorite, and with time and experimentation, you too will discover yours. I tried a lot of different things before I found something that works fo my satisfaction..
Since you've done so much research, it's hard to know what you've seen and what you haven't. So here's my nickel's worth, knowing only what you've told us. Out of curiosity, what ballast product are you using? But let's start at the top.
FWIW, I use matte medium, which has its own issues. Personally, I find a 50/50 mix of glue and water to be overkill. It doesn't thin the glue enough to make it invisible. Is it possible that THIS is what's staining your ties? Also, I use two drops of dishwashing liquid (and you know we're not talking about liquid HAND soap, right?) per CUP of solution. I also dilute my rubbing alcohol 50% (so it's 50% of 70%, or 35%).
1) Mess is relative. What you consider messy might not bother me at all. Never-the-less, I use a dixie cup bent into a spout to apply ballast. I use a 1/2" firm bristled brush to GENTLY sweep it down the center of the track. Then I go back and apply to the shoulders, using a 1" foam applicator to shape it. Some people recommend painting the shoulders with glue first, but i've never had an issue. The key is to apply a little at a time. You can always add more, but it's harder to get it up if you put too much down. After I've applied the glue, I use a thin palette knife to repair any holes I make by being too aggressive in my "dribbling". When it's dry, I vacuum it to get rid of the excess.
2) A lot of people recommend spray, I've never found it useful for anything other than moving materials around (adding to mess, see #1). I use a pipette and dribble it on. It rarely hits anything but the ballast (it also washes the dust off the ties). Don't over apply. Let it wick through until your ballast is wet, not flooded. Try diluting the alcohol as I indicated above.
3) I'm not sure I understand what you mean by staining your ties. Is it dust from the ballast, residue from the alcohol, or glue? I apply the first bit of diluted alcohol directly to the ties. This washes most of the dust off, and what remains looks like weathering. This might be a good place to talk about water. Not all water is created equal. I would use distilled, or at least filtered, water to ensure you don't have problems with minerals. Also, paints which are dry to the touch are not necessarily "dry". Acrylics and latex paints actually continue to cure for several days after they feel dry. Solvent based paints are somewhat faster. This may also explain why your alcohol is "attacking" your paint.
4) Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Dribble some alcohol mixture on the spot which is sticking (most likely under the throw bar) and gently work it lose. Repeat until successful. Then keep working the points until the glue re-sets.
Again, just my observations. Hope you find something there that works.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
CTValleyRR Well, as you've probably discovered by now, there are as many ways to lay ballast as there are ways to skin a cat. Everyone has their favorite, and with time and experimentation, you too will discover yours. I tried a lot of different things before I found something that works fo my satisfaction.. Since you've done so much research, it's hard to know what you've seen and what you haven't. So here's my nickel's worth, knowing only what you've told us. Out of curiosity, what ballast product are you using? But let's start at the top. FWIW, I use matte medium, which has its own issues. Personally, I find a 50/50 mix of glue and water to be overkill. It doesn't thin the glue enough to make it invisible. Is it possible that THIS is what's staining your ties? Also, I use two drops of dishwashing liquid (and you know we're not talking about liquid HAND soap, right?) per CUP of solution. I also dilute my rubbing alcohol 50% (so it's 50% of 70%, or 35%). So far, I'm still using the 50% elmers glue solution. It does take a bit for me to mix it completely, but I don't seem to have issues with this. I'm using dishwashing soap, not dish"washer" or hand soap. I have not diluted the 70% alcohol. 1) Mess is relative. What you consider messy might not bother me at all. Never-the-less, I use a dixie cup bent into a spout to apply ballast. I use a 1/2" firm bristled brush to GENTLY sweep it down the center of the track. Then I go back and apply to the shoulders, using a 1" foam applicator to shape it. Some people recommend painting the shoulders with glue first, but i've never had an issue. The key is to apply a little at a time. You can always add more, but it's harder to get it up if you put too much down. After I've applied the glue, I use a thin palette knife to repair any holes I make by being too aggressive in my "dribbling". When it's dry, I vacuum it to get rid of the excess. I'm learning to deal with the mess and tried taping but found it to be neither here nor there. I just needed to realize that this is "part of the process" I apply the ballast much the same way you've described and I do find "shaping the sides" with the 1" foam brush to give a good even effect. (btw, I'm using fine ballast, not sure of the brand, I'll check once I get home). I like the idea of dressing the holes with a putty knife...I'll try that. 2) A lot of people recommend spray, I've never found it useful for anything other than moving materials around (adding to mess, see #1). I use a pipette and dribble it on. It rarely hits anything but the ballast (it also washes the dust off the ties). Don't over apply. Let it wick through until your ballast is wet, not flooded. Try diluting the alcohol as I indicated above. I use a children's eye dropper style medicine thingy-bobber (<---that's a highly technical term, do becareful how you use that phrase) I do spray the alcohol with a very fine mist from a range of about 12"...no movement of ballast with this method 3) I'm not sure I understand what you mean by staining your ties. Is it dust from the ballast, residue from the alcohol, or glue? I apply the first bit of diluted alcohol directly to the ties. This washes most of the dust off, and what remains looks like weathering. This might be a good place to talk about water. Not all water is created equal. I would use distilled, or at least filtered, water to ensure you don't have problems with minerals. Also, paints which are dry to the touch are not necessarily "dry". Acrylics and latex paints actually continue to cure for several days after they feel dry. Solvent based paints are somewhat faster. This may also explain why your alcohol is "attacking" your paint. As for "staining the ties", my ties had just been "weathered" by yours truly. It is very possible that I didn't allow enough time to let the paint cure. (less that 24 hours) I used floquil pens (RR Tie brown for the ties, Rail brown for the rails). I don't know if the water could be the issue or not, however on unpainted ties, I did not have the staining and the paint or lack there of was the only variable that changed. Someone had suggested earlier that I not use alcohol as the wetting agent. I tried this and found the results to be less than satisfactory. I swithced back to wetting with alcohol. 4) Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Dribble some alcohol mixture on the spot which is sticking (most likely under the throw bar) and gently work it lose. Repeat until successful. Then keep working the points until the glue re-sets. I have yet to fix this issue, as I figure I needed to get my method of application down better first. And I am getting better at that, so the bungled switch will be a job for the near future. Will alcohol alone work the elmers glue mixture loose? Again, just my observations. Hope you find something there that works. Excellent observations and thanks for your input. I couldn't ask for better from you or any of the others who have been so forthcoming with their expertise. Thanks a million fellas!
So far, I'm still using the 50% elmers glue solution. It does take a bit for me to mix it completely, but I don't seem to have issues with this. I'm using dishwashing soap, not dish"washer" or hand soap. I have not diluted the 70% alcohol.
I'm learning to deal with the mess and tried taping but found it to be neither here nor there. I just needed to realize that this is "part of the process" I apply the ballast much the same way you've described and I do find "shaping the sides" with the 1" foam brush to give a good even effect. (btw, I'm using fine ballast, not sure of the brand, I'll check once I get home). I like the idea of dressing the holes with a putty knife...I'll try that.
I use a children's eye dropper style medicine thingy-bobber (<---that's a highly technical term, do becareful how you use that phrase) I do spray the alcohol with a very fine mist from a range of about 12"...no movement of ballast with this method
As for "staining the ties", my ties had just been "weathered" by yours truly. It is very possible that I didn't allow enough time to let the paint cure. (less that 24 hours) I used floquil pens (RR Tie brown for the ties, Rail brown for the rails). I don't know if the water could be the issue or not, however on unpainted ties, I did not have the staining and the paint or lack there of was the only variable that changed. Someone had suggested earlier that I not use alcohol as the wetting agent. I tried this and found the results to be less than satisfactory. I swithced back to wetting with alcohol.
I have yet to fix this issue, as I figure I needed to get my method of application down better first. And I am getting better at that, so the bungled switch will be a job for the near future. Will alcohol alone work the elmers glue mixture loose?
Excellent observations and thanks for your input. I couldn't ask for better from you or any of the others who have been so forthcoming with their expertise. Thanks a million fellas!
farrellaa
And I thought I drank a lotta coffee!!
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I dont spray the alchohol. I dribble it on using a white glue bottle. I also use Arizona rock & Mineral ballast, which is real rock as opposed to the WS walnut shells.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I haven't tried this personaly, it just came to me reading this thread. Has anyone used an airbrush to apply the alcohol water mix? You should be able to turn the pressure down low so as not to disturb the ballast, and the application would be precise, not getting over everything like the spray bottle application.
chugg I haven't tried this personaly, it just came to me reading this thread. Has anyone used an airbrush to apply the alcohol water mix? You should be able to turn the pressure down low so as not to disturb the ballast, and the application would be precise, not getting over everything like the spray bottle application.
I'm deathly afraid of trying an airbrush. On anything. For anything. True story.
Stupid I'm sure...but true all the same.
FC2TurboMSS Here are the questions: 1. What a mess! What do you guys do to contain the stray ballast rocks? Do you tape off? 2. The alcohol spray attacks my interior latex paint I used for my layout board. Would it be better to somehow pre-soak the ballast in alcohol? Or is there another method of putting the alcohol down? 3. The ballast stained my freshly painted (but dry) railroad ties. They are not grey-ish. Should I prewash the ballast? Is there a fix for this? 4. I have successfully made one of my turnouts useless. Not sure if its rocks or glue, but it won't move. I'm sure I watched something on how to protect these, but it alluded me at the time of the crime. Any help would be helpful...duh...why its called help...sorry...its early in my day here. I'm not at all discouraged. This is my children's Christmas Tree oval that I'm making to use for practice in all these little methods. So the fact I'm a ballasting idiot, is fine with me...lol...i'll get better. But I would like to know if I'm just that big of an idiot, or does everybody see the same issues I am the first time they ballast track. Thanks for the assist guys (gender neutral term).
Just finished up ballasting a big patch. A number of things to remember
1. Paint your road bed ballast color before you lay the track. When some ballast flakes off or you miss a spot, it isn't so noticeable.
2. Dunno what all this hi proof alcohol business is about. You need to wet the bone dry ballast otherwise the glue/water mixture won't sink in. Use plain tap water with a few drops of dish wash liquid in it. Spray it on with an old spray bottle, like the kind 409 cleaner or Windex come in. Don't mess with alcohol, stick with "wet water".
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
I have just gotten back to ballasting after 40 years and I was a bit apprehensive since my standards have gone up in that time. It has come out great and doesn't seem difficult and this is in spite of using smaller ballast, 50 and 60 sieve which is usually called n and z scale, for my HO track. I have a couple of suggestions: spray the alcohol with a fine mist sprayer like women's hairsprays come in , be gentle with the first couple of blasts so as not to blow the dry ballast away and don't oversoak it. With a little experimenting you can get it just wet enough so the ballast doesn't float I also let it soak in for a minute or two and then come back with more and since it evaporates you should add some more every five minutes or so and shield the sections that have been glued. I think some people flood the glue on too heavily. I apply it drop by drop using an ear wash bulb with a piece of brass tubing added to make the opening smaller. I don't think bristle brushes should be used to spread the ballast. Maybe it's just due to my fine material but I find the bristles act as little springs that launch the grains. I use a block of soft foam rubber like is used for packing protection. This can be cut to size on a band saw (not a circular saw).
I use a 16oz sprayer and put in about half an inch of rubbing alchol and fill the rest with water,myself,I don't like straight alcohol.For glue I use white glue at 3to1 mix,but I suppose 1to1 or 2to1 wouldn't make a difference.Wet ballast first,be carefull not to move ballast around alot with spray,br carefull.Most likely you'll have to re touchup ballast but if you're carefull it shouldn't be too bad,you usually have to touch up a few spots.I know ballasting can get old quick so do a few feet and then come back later.Make sure to form the ballast when it's dry and as I said if you're carefull you should be in good shape.
jharrison I don't think bristle brushes should be used to spread the ballast. Maybe it's just due to my fine material but I find the bristles act as little springs that launch the grains.
I don't think bristle brushes should be used to spread the ballast. Maybe it's just due to my fine material but I find the bristles act as little springs that launch the grains.
You need to use s brush with softer bristles and use gentle motions (notice that word "gentle" is in caps in my original post). Some ballast grains will get caught in the bristles, but I haven't launched a grain since I got the hang of this technique.
When it comes to spreading the ballast and knocking it off the ties, I use a 1" foam brush, laid on it's side. The thickness fits between the rails nice, and settles the ballast down without the flinging action you get with a bristle brush. I just run the corner of the foam up against the rail and work it back and forth along the length of the rail. No more of those pesky grains that like to get stuck in the tie plates. And no more flinging rocks into my surrounding scenery.
Hey All.
I use a spray bottle that is used for cleaning eye glasses. It puts out a small fine, contained spray pattern and holds enough spray for all the ballasting I want to do at one time. My mix is a tinny bit of soap and maybe 20% alcohol. Then use dropper with 50/50 Elmer's glue. Works for me.
I like the idea of the foam brush if it doesn't cause static electricity to pick up the ballast. I often wondered if a antistatic dryer cloth could be used to make a brush cling free? Hmmmmm
Have fun
Lee
yankee flyer Hey All. I use a spray bottle that is used for cleaning eye glasses. It puts out a small fine, contained spray pattern and holds enough spray for all the ballasting I want to do at one time. My mix is a tinny bit of soap and maybe 20% alcohol. Then use dropper with 50/50 Elmer's glue. Works for me. I like the idea of the foam brush if it doesn't cause static electricity to pick up the ballast. I often wondered if a antistatic dryer cloth could be used to make a brush cling free? Hmmmmm Have fun Lee
Yea, the static can be a factor sometimes. If it gets to be a problem, I just "huff" some air from my mouth over the brush. That little bit of moisture seems to calms things down.
Doug from Michigan yankee flyer: Hey All. I use a spray bottle that is used for cleaning eye glasses. It puts out a small fine, contained spray pattern and holds enough spray for all the ballasting I want to do at one time. My mix is a tinny bit of soap and maybe 20% alcohol. Then use dropper with 50/50 Elmer's glue. Works for me. I like the idea of the foam brush if it doesn't cause static electricity to pick up the ballast. I often wondered if a antistatic dryer cloth could be used to make a brush cling free? Hmmmmm Have fun Lee Yea, the static can be a factor sometimes. If it gets to be a problem, I just "huff" some air from my mouth over the brush. That little bit of moisture seems to calms things down.
yankee flyer: Hey All. I use a spray bottle that is used for cleaning eye glasses. It puts out a small fine, contained spray pattern and holds enough spray for all the ballasting I want to do at one time. My mix is a tinny bit of soap and maybe 20% alcohol. Then use dropper with 50/50 Elmer's glue. Works for me. I like the idea of the foam brush if it doesn't cause static electricity to pick up the ballast. I often wondered if a antistatic dryer cloth could be used to make a brush cling free? Hmmmmm Have fun Lee
For that "more permanent solution" get some of the old fashioned liquid fabric softener and dilute it about 10:1. Mist your applicator with this solution and let it dry about once a week. This will keep static at bay.
FWIW, if you live in a climate where static electricity is a problem in winter, a light dose of this stuff on your carpets will lick that problem too.