I'm really sorry if I wasn't real clear about my intentions or measurements. Also I was trying to figure out which direction I was going. At first I just guessed at the size of the room as I hadn't taken the time to measure. I just knew that a 4x8 sheet of plywood would fit. When the excitement of my new adventure wore off and found this forum after I had started. I started having second thoughts then everyone here got me to think straighter and more clearly. As it is right now if I start all over I am out only two sheets of 1/4" plywood that I cut up into parts and a little glue. All because I got in too big of a hurry. I will think before I say and do from now on. Again sorry for all the confusion.
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread the information that is pouring in is fantastic!
Peace Out
Duane
Nice post, Duane.
Believe me, all of us can sympathize with the excitement of a new layout. We also understand the "I just sat down at my computer for a few minutes and don't feel like running off to measure" feeling. If you're guessing, just say so (although for something like room size, it's a safe bet that someone will ask you to go measure pretty quickly).
As you've no doubt realized, model railroading is a hobby that requires a little thought before action. It looks like, with Byron's help, you've settled into a track plan and scale. While you work on getting your benchwork modified (hopefully, you used wood screws, which will enable you to reuse a bunch of pieces) and getting your track laid -- and BTW, take your time here, and lay it level and free from bumps and kinks, because poorly laid track will cause no end of operational headaches and perhaps ruin the hobby for you forever -- think about what era and railroad you would like to model. You can make up your own road or use an existing one, staying true to history or not as it suits you. Similarly, you can model a real area or a representative one. If you make up details, I would advise you to make them plausible (no buttes in the Northeast, for instance). Once you've got that nailed down, selectively begin making structure, locomotive, and rolling stock acquisitions that match your location, era, and railroad name.
Check back from time to time and let us know how things are proceeding.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I would strongly suggest the largest scale you can be satisfied with. As we get older our skills don't usually improve. Also if you have specific types of equipment in mind see if it is available in your scale prior to making a choice. Second suggestion if a published track plan appeals to you go ahead and start with that but realize your tastes may change. With that in mind keep as much of your structures and expensive items so they can be removed and reused if you decide to redo your layout.
Have fun and enjoy. One other thing that could be very helpful would be joining a local club so you could try some operations etc and see what appeals to you. I found a local club that seems to be the exception rather than the rule in that the group seems like old friends rather than another job, although some of that is the general demeanor of Texans in general.
damigg cuyama: damigg: So I found a plan that I likes and went ahead with the bench work and got it done. It's 104x8 with a 2x32 L shape on the left side. damigg: This is all helping make my decision because I am sure not commuted to just 4x8 but I it is set up in a 10'x10' room. damigg: http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/Bench-Top.jpg I have trouble matching the measurements you gave in the first post with the graphic. But if this is what you have built in a 10'X10' room, much of it will be unreachable as you try to build a layout unless you cut access hole "pop-ups" in multiple places. Most folks find that they cannot reach more than 30" over a built-and-scenicked layout, sometimes less. Note that MR's Virginian (typical of HO 4X8s), requires aisles on at least three sides. In your space, one could build the equivalent of the Virginian, but designed for better access, such as this 8X10 HO layout: In this case, the access areas are really needed only for construction and occasional maintenance. And in the larger 10X10 space, you could probably eliminate at least one with a narrow access aisle. Best of luck. Byron OMG! I am so going to try this layout my room is 12x11 with the door in just the right spot.! Thank You Byron! This layout has so many things going it will be great fun. But I have already ordered some of the track that was going towards the Virginian, but It looks like a lot of it will work with this one too. Now I guess the next trick is bench work? At least I have a more certain direction. I will try and keep everyone posted on my progress. And thanks to all of the great people hear in the forums all the help so far. OH Wait! Should I do open grid or Styrofoam? Thanks Again Duane
cuyama: damigg: So I found a plan that I likes and went ahead with the bench work and got it done. It's 104x8 with a 2x32 L shape on the left side. damigg: This is all helping make my decision because I am sure not commuted to just 4x8 but I it is set up in a 10'x10' room. damigg: http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/Bench-Top.jpg I have trouble matching the measurements you gave in the first post with the graphic. But if this is what you have built in a 10'X10' room, much of it will be unreachable as you try to build a layout unless you cut access hole "pop-ups" in multiple places. Most folks find that they cannot reach more than 30" over a built-and-scenicked layout, sometimes less. Note that MR's Virginian (typical of HO 4X8s), requires aisles on at least three sides. In your space, one could build the equivalent of the Virginian, but designed for better access, such as this 8X10 HO layout: In this case, the access areas are really needed only for construction and occasional maintenance. And in the larger 10X10 space, you could probably eliminate at least one with a narrow access aisle. Best of luck. Byron
damigg: So I found a plan that I likes and went ahead with the bench work and got it done. It's 104x8 with a 2x32 L shape on the left side.
damigg: This is all helping make my decision because I am sure not commuted to just 4x8 but I it is set up in a 10'x10' room.
damigg: http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/Bench-Top.jpg
I have trouble matching the measurements you gave in the first post with the graphic.
But if this is what you have built in a 10'X10' room, much of it will be unreachable as you try to build a layout unless you cut access hole "pop-ups" in multiple places. Most folks find that they cannot reach more than 30" over a built-and-scenicked layout, sometimes less.
Note that MR's Virginian (typical of HO 4X8s), requires aisles on at least three sides.
In your space, one could build the equivalent of the Virginian, but designed for better access, such as this 8X10 HO layout:
In this case, the access areas are really needed only for construction and occasional maintenance. And in the larger 10X10 space, you could probably eliminate at least one with a narrow access aisle.
Best of luck.
Byron
OMG! I am so going to try this layout my room is 12x11 with the door in just the right spot.! Thank You Byron! This layout has so many things going it will be great fun. But I have already ordered some of the track that was going towards the Virginian, but It looks like a lot of it will work with this one too. Now I guess the next trick is bench work? At least I have a more certain direction. I will try and keep everyone posted on my progress. And thanks to all of the great people hear in the forums all the help so far.
OH Wait! Should I do open grid or Styrofoam?
Thanks Again
I have been spending the last day and a half trying to figure bench work for Bryon's Water wings plan. What would be the best way to do this one?
Later and Thanks in Advance :-)
damiggI have been spending the last day and a half trying to figure bench work for Bryon's Water wings plan. What would be the best way to do this one?
I'd use L-girder because I have found it so fast and easy for a non-precision carpenter (me) to build, but open grid would work fine too.
A good source for what those terms mean and how to build benchwork is: Basic Model Railroad Benchwork
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I am really struggling with what I should put an L-Girder under this track for bench the work.
At least I have enough scratch paper to last at least a year.
damigg I am really struggling with what I should put an L-Girder under this track for bench the work. At least I have enough scratch paper to last at least a year. Thanks Again Duane
No.... we're struggling with this one. Perhaps you don't understand what we mean when we say, "L girder", but I'm having a really hard time understanding how someone who put this:
damigg So I found a plan that I likes and went ahead with the bench work and got it done. It's 104x8 with a 2x32 L shape on the left side. It turned out great it's straight, square and level and ready for drawing the layout on it.
So I found a plan that I likes and went ahead with the bench work and got it done. It's 104x8 with a 2x32 L shape on the left side. It turned out great it's straight, square and level and ready for drawing the layout on it.
... in his first post is having trouble with bench work for this track plan. L girders are a type of construction which joins two boards (usually 1x2's for our purposes) into one beam by fastening them together at right angles in the shape of a capital L. This provides a strong unit which resists flexing both horizontally and vertically. How you join these L girders together with joists (which can also be L girders) and legs has nothing to do with "L girders construction".
Your basic L girder supports can run left to right across both side lobes, and top to bottom across the top part of the drawing. Use joists made of L girders at each end of the supports, and fasten your table legs to these at about 4' intervals (your legs can be either L girders or 2x2 lumber). If you need more support, use gussets of 1/2" plywood to support the legs. Don't over-engineer it. It has to be sturdy and level.
This base will support plywood (overkill), extruded foam insulation panels, or plywood / Masonite subroadbed at your option.
CTValleyRR damigg: I am really struggling with what I should put an L-Girder under this track for bench the work. At least I have enough scratch paper to last at least a year. Thanks Again Duane No.... we're struggling with this one. Perhaps you don't understand what we mean when we say, "L girder", but I'm having a really hard time understanding how someone who put this: damigg: So I found a plan that I likes and went ahead with the bench work and got it done. It's 104x8 with a 2x32 L shape on the left side. It turned out great it's straight, square and level and ready for drawing the layout on it. ... in his first post is having trouble with bench work for this track plan. L girders are a type of construction which joins two boards (usually 1x2's for our purposes) into one beam by fastening them together at right angles in the shape of a capital L. This provides a strong unit which resists flexing both horizontally and vertically. How you join these L girders together with joists (which can also be L girders) and legs has nothing to do with "L girders construction". Your basic L girder supports can run left to right across both side lobes, and top to bottom across the top part of the drawing. Use joists made of L girders at each end of the supports, and fasten your table legs to these at about 4' intervals (your legs can be either L girders or 2x2 lumber). If you need more support, use gussets of 1/2" plywood to support the legs. Don't over-engineer it. It has to be sturdy and level. This base will support plywood (overkill), extruded foam insulation panels, or plywood / Masonite subroadbed at your option.
damigg: I am really struggling with what I should put an L-Girder under this track for bench the work. At least I have enough scratch paper to last at least a year. Thanks Again Duane
damigg: So I found a plan that I likes and went ahead with the bench work and got it done. It's 104x8 with a 2x32 L shape on the left side. It turned out great it's straight, square and level and ready for drawing the layout on it.
Sorry For The Confusion
I will burden no one with anymore dumb questions on this one and I will (trust me) get this done.
Admin If possible please remove this tread.
Thank You So Much For Everything.
damigg Sorry For The Confusion I will burden no one with anymore dumb questions on this one and I will (trust me) get this done. Admin If possible please remove this tread. Thank You So Much For Everything.
Stow the self pity (and the Excessive Use Of Capital Letters) somewhere and try to _explain_ what you are not getting instead.
The concept behind L-girder construction is pretty simple: 1) Each beam is made from two planks put at a 90 degree angle, so the end profile looks like an L. This makes the combined plank as stiff as a massive beam of the same outer dimensions, but without getting as heavy, and it makes it easy to put a screw through the thinner part. 2) When you build benchwork from L-girder beams instead of rectangular frames, the cross beams lays on top of the main beams, instead of having to fit into rectangular boxes, so it is easy to vary lengths, angles etc:
It doesn't take precision joining at 90 degree angles - the top layer of beams (which runs out towards the aisles) lies on top of the bottom layer, and can run at various angles etc.
Then you fasten risers (vertical planks of varying length) to the crossbeams, and put your track on a plywood cutout which are fastened to the risers. If you need to vary height, you unscrew the riser from the crossbeam and refastens it higher or lower. If you need to vary radius, you move the riser.
All of which are explained in great detail and with better illustrations in the book on benchwork that Byron recommended..
As for Byron's plan, you could put L-girders under that plan in many ways - the only thing you have to make sure you don't do is to plug up the two access holes by having beams running straight through the access holes.
Start by looking for places to put long beams under, the so the cross beams (girders) on top of those beams will run towards the fascia/aisle. Nothing has to be at 90 degree angles.
Smile, Stein
hi Duane,
google L-girder and you might find a chapter about L-girders from a book by Jeff Wilson, you might also find the following picture:
Byron Henderson already gave you the title of a good book about building benchwork (the link above is to the very same book). I completely agree with him; L-girders are very forgiving and easy to build, flexible too. So easily to change afterwards.
Though you will need more then just the legs and L-girders; anyway cross-beams are always needed. On the plan SteinJr provided lots are used, a distance of about 18" between cross-beams is typical. On top you could have a sheet of foam or plywood. But when you want grades and elevations risers and cleats are needed as well. Look carefully at the picture above, risers and cleats are added to the first 3 cross-beams. While plywood is easily to bend for constructing grades, foam is not. Here special risers like those sold by Woodland Scenics are often used.
BTW i prefer books above haphazardly gathered information on forums. Unless you learn which respondents can be trusted, all of them are helpful however.
Smile
Paul
After being up for 18 hours i just checked out what I posted before I went to bed.
OMG! sorry for that horrible post. I sincerely do apologize for that.
Anyway I really do understand L-girder and was just having a hard time figuring how to get it to fit under the track. With the pointers above I am now beginning to understand. I always thought you had to have two rails. I didn't know you could actually use just one rail when you needed.
I just printed more copies to take to work with me to see what I can come up with. I will post up what I think might work later for some opinions.
Good Morning
damiggI always thought you had to have two rails. I didn't know you could actually use just one rail when you needed.
There are almost always still two girders (what you are calling "rails") One is often attached to the wall with the flange pointing in where the benchwork is narrow. A single L-girder won't work very well, the joists (cross pieces) need two points upon which to rest.
The book would explain a lot and is worth the small price. Good luck.
I ment girders. But anyway the part that I am having problems with how to the areas under the two loops. How would I construct the benchwork for those areas?
Later
Hi Duane,
like this:
When using a plywood "top" in cookie-cutter style the plywood takes the forces the additional diagonals take other wise.
The L girder on top is secured to the wall.
I got off work a little bit ago and here is what I got so far.
<a href="http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/?action=view&current=BenchIdea2.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/BenchIdea2.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/BenchIdea2.png
damigg I got off work a little bit ago and here is what I got so far. <a href="http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/?action=view&current=BenchIdea2.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/BenchIdea2.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a> http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/BenchIdea2.png
"don't put a beam right through where you need a hole" and "doesn't need to be at 90 degrees" :-)
Minor modification:
steinjr damigg: I got off work a little bit ago and here is what I got so far. <a href="http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/?action=view&current=BenchIdea2.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/BenchIdea2.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a> http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/BenchIdea2.png "don't put a beam right through where you need a hole" and "doesn't need to be at 90 degrees" :-) Minor modification: Smile, Stein
damigg: I got off work a little bit ago and here is what I got so far. <a href="http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/?action=view&current=BenchIdea2.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/BenchIdea2.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a> http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/BenchIdea2.png
I have taken that into consideration also. But where I get to have this layout in the room I will have access all the way around both ends with out having to go under to get to those areas of the track. That was my thinking on that one. So would I still need to change?
Thanks tons for the pointer.
damigg I have taken that into consideration also. But where I get to have this layout in the room I will have access all the way around both ends with out having to go under to get to those areas of the track. That was my thinking on that one. So would I still need to change?
Nope. If you actually have room to walk all around the peninsulas, you do not need to leave a popup hole in the benchwork.
Some of the confusion might be because your room has been described in a number of different ways, and your layout are not shown as placed in the room.
You have described your room as a "12x11 foot room". The layout you want to copy (Byron's Virginian track plan) was made for a an 8 x 10 foot space, so adding a two foot corridor on all four sides of for access from all directions of the return lobes seemingly would take a room that was 12 x 14 feet big. If you intend to make do without access from the left end of the lower left end lobe, and the top end of the upper right hand lobe, then you should be able to make do with a room 10 x 12 feet - i.e. a two foot corridor at lower left and a 2 foot corridor along the right side of the room.
My room is 12' 6" by 11' 6" (I had a tape measure this time) with the long side will be at the door opening and the door actually will clear the finished layout. giving me easy access all around plus still very easy access to the room. The short end when laid out will be almost 3' from the wall. Which is more than enough room for me get all the way around that end too. Cool!
If I can get a heck yes! I will start buying wood tomorrow. If not what changes do I still need to make?
PeaceDuane
one of my favorite plans was the kinicinic rail and dock layout that was built as a project by the MR staff many years ago. it can be found in "popular model railroads you can model". no longer in print but i found mine on amazon. i'm sure it would be in the 75 year dvd collection as well since it was an MR project layout
damigg
Duane,
Not wanting to step on Byron, Stein, and Paul's thread here, but I suspect their collective heads are spinning a bit since we are on the 4th page, and only now finally figured out the dimensions of your room.
By my observation, if you are fitting that plan into a 11.6 wide room, you will have an aisle of only 24 inches along the west side and an aisle of about 1 foot at the east to access the back of the NE loop. Not good enough, IMO. And, you will need the full 12.6 of length to be able to swing in front of the bottom loop to head along the west, leaving the top of the layout along the wall, right?
It might be best to shove the entire layout to the east in order to have proper 3 ft access along the west side, and to also be able to follow the train along that longish wall and switch the turnouts. Then plan to build a hole in the NE loop for access, possibly tucked behind a backdrop.
- Douglas
Progress Report.
Hope it is OK to keep this thread going with progress report. But I just want to show that I getting it going.
Anyway I am going to started trying to get the track plans transferred to the plywood tomorrow.
I did have to include an access point on the far end of the bench.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/Duane151/Benchwork8.jpg
Thanks For Looking