I see many just 'stack' pieces of rigid foamboard on top of one another to achieve the desired height as opposed to using elevated 'T' supports (old school method). That's fine if there are no turnouts on this elevated section, but what do you do if there are?Run a 2" to 6" rod up from the plywood base to reach the turnout??
I use a 2-inch foam base. The problem of driving turnouts with Tortoises is the same. All it takes is a stiffer wire - I use something like .040 "music wire" from the hardware store. You need to drill out the small hole in the Tortoise to accomodate the thicker wire. Positiong the fulcrum slider near the top of the Tortoise to get the appropriate travel distance for longer throws.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I have 4 inches of foam plus 1/4" of plywood to go through, and while I use servos and not Tortoises, the method of operation is the same, the rod wiggles back and forth to move the throwbar. With wire stiffer than comes with the Tortise, I have no problem with this at all.
An alternative is to use a J shaped wire, preferrably in a brass tube, so it just rotares, moving the arm back and forth to move the throwbar. The advantage is a much smaller hole, the disadvantage is there's a bit more visible rod up top, from where it comes out of the hole a tie or two away fromt eh throtbar and then is bend over to reach the throwbar hole. The other advantage is that the Tortoise or whatever underneath can be oriented in any directionm and laid on its side, since all you are trying to get is twisting motion, not rocking. It doesn't matter to which side or direction the twist comes from (think of a crank handle - it works the same no matter what part of the rotation its on).
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Amazing how popular Tortoise is, considering that I never mentioned them.
Ground throws are out, so was Tortoise (AFAIK). I was considering servos, but unsure of the associated electronics. I would to go with the new Atlas, but not sure yet.
I was just wondering how others do it as I am dong cookie cutter construction w/ risers.
LION has an elevated subway station. Him cannot put motors under the track, that is where the traffic on Broadway lives. LION put the switch machines on the back wall, and connected them to the railroad with 1/16" welding rod. Eventually the Tortoise machines will be hidden inside of a building. It will have to be an NYCT maintenance building in order to justify walkways to the structure which will hide the control rods.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
videobruce ... I am dong cookie cutter construction w/ risers.
... I am dong cookie cutter construction w/ risers.
In areas where I have that kind of roadbed construction, I just mount any switch machines directly to the bottom of the roadbed itself. Elevation above the base benchwork level is immaterial.
Rob Spangler
videobruce Amazing how popular Tortoise is, considering that I never mentioned them. Ground throws are out, so was Tortoise (AFAIK). I was considering servos, but unsure of the associated electronics. I would to go with the new Atlas, but not sure yet. I was just wondering how others do it as I am dong cookie cutter construction w/ risers.
My layout is flat with extruded foam, but my friend's is a more traditional cookie cutter. He has Tortoises, servos, and some old GB style (jack screw) switch machines, all just mounted udner the subroadbed. His is just plywood, plus roadbed for the track on top, and in tight clearance areas all he does is glue the servo right to the bottom of the subroadbed, the short distance makes the required hole small.
The only place Tortoises are 'out' is if the clearnace underneath is too small, but then that's what servos are for. They are a fraction of the size of a Tortoise, generally 1" long, about .86" high, and .45" wide. Fit anywhere. Tam Valley probably has the most complete line of controller options. There are others but often they are just DCC stationary decoders. Tam Valley has a controlelr that has no DCC capability, and their ones that do also have buttons and LEDs for local control ont he panel, without using DCC. They are what I use.
I'm considering servos, but undecided. Since I plan on using Peco, it would be nice to use their motors, but I don't like the idea of that hole and the inaccessibility.
My previous foam top layout, I mounted the Tortoises right under the turnout, similar to the way Peco motors mount. It's not really inaccessible - one thing I would NOT do is solder the rail joints on a turnout. If one acts up, slide the joiners back, lift out the turnout, and fix it or the motor. Drop it bac in, slide the joiners, and maybe touch up the paint on the rails. One of the ways shown ont he Tam Valley web site for mounting servos has you attach it directly to the bottom of the turnout, also just liek the Peco motor - and about the same size, the size I gave is for a 9G servo, if you mount it that close to the turnout you can use even smaller 4.5G servos.
I'm just long over the slam-bang of solenoid switch motors It just seems old fashioned when there are multipel ways to have noce smooth slow action like the prototype. However, to use servos or Tortoises with Peco you need to remove the spring so the points can move freely. Newer Peco turnouts make this pretty easy.
---Randy
Interesting about those servos mounted directly to the turnout. I didn't see that on their web site.
What I don't like about servos is the addition of additional electronics, but mostly the ridiculous charge of $3 for a small piece of nylon/plastic to mount the servo, which is the same price as the servo itself. $1 I might buy, but $3 is overpriced.
Of course, direct mounting would solve that issue. I'm just uncomfortable about drilling a somewhat large hole through the table. If it is off by even a few mm's, you have a problem.
It's not NEARLY that touchy. The hoel has to be close but exact to the mm? No way. It's pretty simple too, just lay the turnout in place, mark to either side of the throwbar as well is between the rails to either side of it, make an X, drill hole close to the centerof the X. The amount of motion required to move the points side to side isn;t that much.
As for the Motrak mounts, for thicker bases like mine they are worth it for easy of installation. The give a fulcrum point like on a Tortoise to increase the travel of the far end of the actuating wire. They're actually MORE expensive than the servos - you do not buy the servos there, you buy them on eBay, 6 for $13. Combines with the Motrak mount and a Singlet, it's still less that a Tortoise and you get buttons, LEDs, and a DCC decoder with all that. For a thinner structure such as my friend's more traditional plywood and riser, where you can just glue the servo right to the bottom, you can easily save the cost of the mount. Since the thickness of material it has to work through is little over 3/4", it doesn't even need a very large hole.
CHeck the User Gallery part of the Tam Valley site, this shows a couple of direct to the turnout applications, the teeny servos are 3.7G, It also shows one mounted in a DIY sort of like the Motrak, the servo is taped tot eh bottom of the base and a thin pieceof palstic is put over the bottom of the hole up to the turnout with a wire-thickness hole drilled in it to serve as the fulcrum hole. I haven't foudn any double stick tape that really holds worth a darn though, so I dunno about this method.
This si all super easy to do, there's little skill involved in setting this up. It takes me 4-5 tries to get the wire up through the throwbar from below, but my friend has a knack for it and gets them first time - so at a work session I had him put all mine in place. I preassembled the servo to the Motrak mount and attached the wire, leaving it extra long. They include a piece of dounle side tape, so I stick that on, and once the thing is pressed up against the underside it sticks long enough for me to put a couple of screws in the provided holes. No holding it up and in alignment whiel simultaneously trying to drive screws. Once it's all tested, the wire gets clipped off tight against the throwbar.
I have Atlas, Peco and Tortoise machines on my layout. I love the slow-motion aspect of the Tortoises, and the built-in contacts for signals, panel indicators and/or frog power are a big plus.
If you don't mind the twin-coil "snap" rahter than the slow motion, I see nothing wrong with using Peco machines since you're using their turnouts. The Peco turnouts are designed to work with Peco machines. If you use any other machine, you must remove the small springs that hold the points in place. There's an accessory attachment for Peco machines that provides a single-pole, double-throw (SPDT) contact set. It attaches physically to the bottom of the switch machine. Because they need to overpower the springs, Peco machines take more of a kick than Atlas machines. A capacitive discharge (CD) circuit is highly recommended. Besides providing more of a jolt to the machines, the CD circuit will also protect the machines in the event of a stuck toggle, which I would imagine is probably the most common cause of twin-coil switch machine failure.
As Randy suggested, installing the turnout with maintenance in mind is a good idea. Leave the rail joiners loose, don't glue down the turnout, go easy on the ballast, and leave plenty of slack in the wires that power the machine so that you can lift the whole assembly out. Also, since you've got loose rail joiners, make sure you've got feeders (with extra-long leads) directly to the turnout so you don't have to depend on the rail joiners for connectivity.
I never used a CD system until my last layout. I was amazed how well it worked and the fact it's almost impossible to burn out the coils.
"Motrak for which motors? Servos?
I don't mind the 'snap' of a twin coil machine. Slow motion is only good if you can see the points. Many of my turnouts won't fall under that classification.
The other thing I don't like about Peco machines is there are no additional contacts for position w/o adding something.
I was considering the new Atlas under table machine with built in contacts.
Th Motrak mount is the $3 part for mounting servo motors. Craig Bisgeier came up witht he design and Motrk Models massed produced them in cast resin, the original was fabricated from bits of styrene which is WAY too much work if you need a bunch of them. I actually wanted to pick up some last year at Timonium (Motrak was there) but he said the previous weekend, at Amherst, DUncan from Tam Valley bought out his entire stock because he was running out.
The Atlas undtertables are probably more finicky than either Tortoises or servos to install, just based on the design. You'll almost certainly have to disable the spring on the Peco turnout to get it to work. The Peco motors will be the easiest, with Peco turnouts. The contacts just clip on the back of the motor, pretty easy, again the whole thing should be built before the turnout is actually installed so it just drops in. SOlder wires on first as well, so it is easy to connect it all upwhent he motor is essentially buried. With a CDS you shouldn;t have to worry too much about one failing, it's still more likely the turnout itself will have a mechanichal failure than the point motor fail. Oh - and test before installing, of course. Big bummer to get them in place, finally hook up the control switch,a nd find it was a bum motor.
videobruce I was considering the new Atlas under table machine with built in contacts.
The Atlas machine has a short vertical throw bar. It is designed for 1/4 inches of roadbed on top of 3/4 inch plywood, so it's 1 inch long. The whole assembly is plastic, so it would be tricky to add a longer section, and I'd imagine the plastic would twist. I've never heard of anyone successfully mounting one of these more than an inch below the turnout. You would definitely need to remove the Peco springs to use an Atlas machine. To me, one of the selling points of the Peco turnout is those springs and the solid lock of points to stock rails.
The Atlas motor I used was to original design from decades ago. They have a new version, w and w/o position contacts that looked like a possibility that I would like ti try.
I do like the idea of mounting a motor directly to the turnout, but don't like the necessity of a large hole beneath. The other issue is lack of position contacts w/o an additional purchase. I'm surprised Peco hasn't addressed this by now.
I don't remember how long the uncut 'pin' of those Atlas under table machines was since all of my salvaged motors have been trimmed. It surely seemed longer than an inch.
I don't think they really changed much. The non-deluxe ones look like the regular tabletop ones with a longer pin adn a pad to make the mounting area flush. The deluxe versions look a bit different but with limited travel and the screws so close together, they have to be lined up nearly perfectly to work at all. And no drilling template provided.
Ach... Who needs nasty template! You make one hole under the switch throw bar (and you *know* where that is. Then you mount the switch, slab a dab of glue (silicone caulk, if you will) on the motor, and then once you have gotten the actuator up through the throw bar, you can slide the motor about (and test it until it is perfect) before the silicone sets. When it is just right, leave it alone and let the glue set.
DONE.
(Nasty Template!)
Well not everyone is convinced caulk will work. I tested a Turtle with caulk - and when I went to get it off it took a chunk out of the foam. I'm convinced, if I wa still usign them, I'd caulk them in place and forget the screws. That won;t work too well with the Atlas ones, they have such a short hrough is needt to be precisely mounted or it won't close the points allt he way in one direction or the other.What they really need to do with them is put one screw at one and and the other at the opposite end, so you can make tweaks like that to get it lined up. A Turtle doesn;t really care, you can mount it halfway off center of the throwbar hole and it will still push hard enough in each direction.
I only have seen photos of the newer Atlas motors.
When I used to old style 15 years ago, I had one hell of a time mounting these, not just positioning them, but securing them using small enough screws to go through the holes in the motor which holes in the plywood had to be drilled first since there was no way they could be self installed like drywall screws.
The caulk route sounds easy, but I would question the ability of the caulk to hold the motor until it setups without some 'aid' (tape for example).
I don't want to drill and/or screw upside down unless I absolutely have to when it comes to small screws.
videobruce The caulk route sounds easy, but I would question the ability of the caulk to hold the motor until it setups without some 'aid' (tape for example). I don't want to drill and/or screw upside down unless I absolutely have to when it comes to small screws.
I have a foam-base layout. For Tortoise-mounting, I cut squares of 1/4-inch plywood, about 3x3 inches, just like the template provided. I pre-drilled the large hole for the throw rod, and small ones at the corners for mounting screws. I also drilled a 1/4-inch hole straight down through the foam from the top. Note that I said "drilled," not "punched." Drilling removes all the material and leaves a nice clean hole that won't close in on itself when the pressure is removed.
Next, I took a 3 or 4 inch carriage bolt with a big washer and inserted it through the hole from the top. I put plain old white glue on the top of the plywood square and slipped it over the other end of the bolt from the underside, making sure it was square with the track so that the throw rod would move perpendicular to the direction of travel. Another washer and a wingnut followed, tight enough to get some pressure without distorting anything. After 24 hours, I removed the bolt and had a solid mount. They've been in place for quite a while now with no problems.
That is for HO isn't it? I model N, or doesn't it matter?
SHould work either way. If you want to see pictures of what I had mentioned for a crank mechanism that will work through anythickness of benchwork, check YankeeFlyer's post in the other topic on Atlas Undertable Switch Motors. He's done that, and posted pictures of the parts and how it works.