hon30critter Rich I was referring to the posts that suggested that the OP was no longer watching the thread, and the posts that said the question was too general. I thought the OP asked a good question and I appreciated some of the advice given. Taking pot shots at the OP is not in the spirit of these forums. Like Bambie's mom said "If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all". And remember - Walt Disney was a model railroader. Dave
Rich
I was referring to the posts that suggested that the OP was no longer watching the thread, and the posts that said the question was too general. I thought the OP asked a good question and I appreciated some of the advice given. Taking pot shots at the OP is not in the spirit of these forums.
Like Bambie's mom said "If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all". And remember - Walt Disney was a model railroader.
Dave
Yes, it always seems to me that saying the OP asked the wrong question is like professing to be a mind reader. In this case, he didn't ask for help in designing a layout, just for our lists of mistakes we'd try to avoid.. so I think we have to leave it there until he asks for more help.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Build dominoes and only do your main line at first, it is nice to have trains up and running asap! Then you can cut in any turnouts you need off the main but you will have trains running from almost the get go, without the trains running you could loss motivation in such a large space.
I blame Paul - - LOL
He cut and paste the OP's first post, not his last post, and I missed the OP's last post.
My apologies to the OP. I should follow my own advice and read (and re-read) the entire thread.
Onwards and upwards.
Alton Junction
richhotrain We know that the OP is following the thread because he responded with a cryptic remark rather than engage us. We are not looking for any thank yous. We are looking for the OP to tell us if we are being helpful.
We know that the OP is following the thread because he responded with a cryptic remark rather than engage us. We are not looking for any thank yous. We are looking for the OP to tell us if we are being helpful.
Guess you did't see this post by the OP further down in the thread (before the thanksgiving post)?
Bluegill1 Yes, I've followed responses. Kinda started a do's and Don't list. I have obtained the books mentioned and read them (over and over), coming from a 3 rail background it's a big change to move from a round and round loop to an operational mentality. I've been fortunate to have met several fantastic members of our local Division of the NMRA who have let me participate in several operating sessions. That has helped immensely. After reading, operating, talking and listening( a lot of listening), I have gathered the following from everyone: Finish the room, plenty AC outlets and circuits & light, L girder construction, fascia, 30" reach rule, don't use cheap material, I'll go with 3/4" birch plywood sub, with homosote on top, followed by cork roadbed, 36" aisle, less than 2% grades including the branch line running up the holler, around the walls with no duck unders or liftouts, code 83, probably Walthers track & switches(due to great selection), track install needs to be rock solid, DCC all the way(sound brings it to life), min 32" radius, #6 turnouts, don't rush.....but get started, two staging areas ( at ends), no turnouts in tunnels or beginning/end of grades, painted backdrop(first), do not "cram" the track in ( I will not). I like CSX, 1990's, West Virginia coal, Logan sub division, isolated branches using "mine critters". I'm attracted to the mountains vs urban, drags of Hoppers vs intermodal, GP38 "mine critters" vs large Dash 8/ SD70 units, sound vs silent, mountains & valleys vs flat terrain, winding trackage vs straight, small towns vs cities, weathered vs non weathered, slow vs fast. Hope this gives an idea of where I'm at. I'm currently helping a nephew in his basement(benchwork), so I'm able to get my feet wet over his basement w/ L girder/ risers etc.... In fact, I'm leaving for there as soon as I finish typing this. Thank you for everyones insight and helpfulness. The room is cleaned out, the saw horses are up, the saw is plugged in. I'll keep everyone updated as I go. David
Yes, I've followed responses. Kinda started a do's and Don't list.
I have obtained the books mentioned and read them (over and over), coming from a 3 rail background it's a big change to move from a round and round loop to an operational mentality. I've been fortunate to have met several fantastic members of our local Division of the NMRA who have let me participate in several operating sessions. That has helped immensely. After reading, operating, talking and listening( a lot of listening), I have gathered the following from everyone:
Finish the room, plenty AC outlets and circuits & light, L girder construction, fascia, 30" reach rule, don't use cheap material, I'll go with 3/4" birch plywood sub, with homosote on top, followed by cork roadbed, 36" aisle, less than 2% grades including the branch line running up the holler, around the walls with no duck unders or liftouts, code 83, probably Walthers track & switches(due to great selection), track install needs to be rock solid, DCC all the way(sound brings it to life), min 32" radius, #6 turnouts, don't rush.....but get started, two staging areas ( at ends), no turnouts in tunnels or beginning/end of grades, painted backdrop(first), do not "cram" the track in ( I will not).
I like CSX, 1990's, West Virginia coal, Logan sub division, isolated branches using "mine critters". I'm attracted to the mountains vs urban, drags of Hoppers vs intermodal, GP38 "mine critters" vs large Dash 8/ SD70 units, sound vs silent, mountains & valleys vs flat terrain, winding trackage vs straight, small towns vs cities, weathered vs non weathered, slow vs fast. Hope this gives an idea of where I'm at.
I'm currently helping a nephew in his basement(benchwork), so I'm able to get my feet wet over his basement w/ L girder/ risers etc.... In fact, I'm leaving for there as soon as I finish typing this.
Thank you for everyones insight and helpfulness. The room is cleaned out, the saw horses are up, the saw is plugged in.
I'll keep everyone updated as I go.
David
Sounds to me like the OP has been reading the advice offered, and is summarizing pretty well some of the main points.
How about we drop the meta-discussion about whether the OP is listening, and focus on discussing things we have learned from in earlier layouts instead?
Smile, Stein
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
hon30critter David Naysayers aside I think you asked a good question and got some good answers. You have given me food for thought - specifically the reach in factor. I have spent a lot of time on a plan but now I am stopped in my tracks (pardon the pun). Thanks Dave
Naysayers aside I think you asked a good question and got some good answers. You have given me food for thought - specifically the reach in factor. I have spent a lot of time on a plan but now I am stopped in my tracks (pardon the pun).
Thanks
Naysayers?
Dave, you ought to read the entire thread before you criticize any of us.
The OP has been provided with lots of good advice, and all that we have asked for is for him to respond and give us some additional guidance concerning his needs and desires so we can help him more.
I guess we could just shoot in the dark, continue to provide advice, and have no idea where we are heading, but what's the point of that?
Glad to know bluegill1 is watching and listening and learning...ANd that he has 3 rail experience...
that puts him off to a good start without our help I think!
ANd Happy Thanks Giving back to him!
..ANd to all a good nite...oh sorry, wrong holiday...
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Bluegill1 Opps, I forgot to wish everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving! David
Opps, I forgot to wish everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving!
I guess that this is all that we are going to get.
Bluegill1 Getting ready to get started on my first HO layout, I'll be working in a 18x 20 area. I am staying away from any duckunders, lift outs ect.......... If you had to do it all over again, what would you change, include, or avoid? Thanks, David
Getting ready to get started on my first HO layout, I'll be working in a 18x 20 area. I am staying away from any duckunders, lift outs ect..........
If you had to do it all over again, what would you change, include, or avoid?
Thanks,
Sounds like a very experienced modelrailroader. As I said before, the initial question is to broad. Even the no duck-unders or lift-outs should not be carved in stone. They are great and importent druthers, don't get me wrong. The question always is: at what price? Then the balancing art of good design starts. To be honest I assumed planning and design was the phase he is in. In the same posting , my mistake of course, my way of working too, i said: my prime interests are devoted to the job that i am doing. The finer issues about DCC or how to build a lake, will get my undivided attention later.
So when he is ready to start, he could ask about benchwork or design. Not only by asking a broad question, but telling what he is trying to do and asking for alternatives.
The lists, professional designers ask their clients to answer before their brains are used, are a great start to read and start a thread with.. To be honest, with 40 years experience in teaching, the kind of question asked, give away at once if students did their homework or at least have been thinking about the subject. Questions like: " Please explain, i do not understand it at all" , to often, if not always, hides the lack of doing their jobs. Rich said it loudly, the OP did not respond to all the tips given. It turned out he is in good hands and should be quite able to ask more specific questions.
Paul
Paulus Jas hi gentlemen, the OP has hopefully been reading all our comments. Since long i've the feeling he must be overwhelmed if he is still reading this thread anyway. Dreaming, planning, buying and building; starting with a doable piece of his dream layout. Thinking about being ih his position, I would love to hear about the possible mistakes regarding the phase where i am in. The OP did not tell us his dreams, nor his plans, he just showed us nothing. IMHO we are to often way to nice; why respond to those vaque questions. He did not even had the courtesy to thank all the posters or started some kind of conversation. We all keep trying to help a OP who has turned his back towards us. It is not my kind of fun. Paul
hi gentlemen,
the OP has hopefully been reading all our comments. Since long i've the feeling he must be overwhelmed if he is still reading this thread anyway.
Dreaming, planning, buying and building; starting with a doable piece of his dream layout. Thinking about being ih his position, I would love to hear about the possible mistakes regarding the phase where i am in.
The OP did not tell us his dreams, nor his plans, he just showed us nothing. IMHO we are to often way to nice; why respond to those vaque questions. He did not even had the courtesy to thank all the posters or started some kind of conversation. We all keep trying to help a OP who has turned his back towards us.
It is not my kind of fun.
No.... the OP asked what mistakes we'd try to avoid if we had to do it over again. I'm sure everyone who spends any time in the workshop has things he'd like a mulligan on.
For all we know, the OP is a Master Model Railroader who's about to start his tenth layout is looking for that one nugget among all the dross. I doubt it, but it's not impossible. He didn't actually ask for advice on how to build or design a layout. We're inferring that from what he asked.
David,
And to you too.
Hey, wait a minute.
That's it???
LOL
Even though the OP hasn't responded this ol' boy learned a lot. So I'll thank all of you for your excellent comments and ideas.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
Galaxy,
While it would be helpful for the OP {Original Poster if he doesn't know the abbreviation} to at least pop in and let us know if anything here is helpful, I would like to reiterate a few things. It is nice to know we are not just talking amongst ourselves!
ACCESS- Yes access is a MAJOR point. DOn't build anything that is over your arm reach or about 24" away without having a popup or drop out access beyond that to reach further into the layout.
Always have ACCESS to tunnels and hidden areas,,, it is guaranteed you WILL have derailments in there and will need to get trains out.
If you have aisles Allow plenty of aisle ACCESS for growing/aging. expanding girth! a 30-36" aisle is a must for one or two people. If more are going to operate trains, even wider is better.
Also: bulletproof trackwork planned out well will be a time and hair saver. take your time with trackwork, solder several joints to ensure good electrical and signal continuity and leave a few open wiht just rail joiners for expansion with heat. Wire well and solder wires to track and for wire connections.
Also: grades...do NOT exceed 2%!! WHile some can tell you they have 3, 4 or even 5% grades and have locos that will pull 25 unit trains up thta grade, most likely you will be servely disappointed if you choose a grade over 2%!! I tore up a 3% AND a 4% grade layout BOTH due to poor loco performance on those steep grades!
ALso: maybe Most importantly: READ, READ, READ AGAIN about trackwork, Layout planning and Layout operations as you will then know what to look for in a "good" layout. There are several books by Kalmbach {our leaders here} available at eth top right side gray tool bar under the "shop" button , OR ont he top black tool bar right side under "shop" button. They are desinged to be very informative and helpful books.
Hope this helps- pleas elet us know if w have helped!!
Paul, I generally agree with your comments. That was my first thought when I read the OP's initial post.
Where do you start in answering such a vague question? Or, maybe I should ask, where do you start in answering such a broad question?
Other than indicating that he wishes to avoid duckunders and lift outs, he gives us nothing to work with. What type of layout is he contemplating? Flatlands, mountains, yards, staging areas, whatever? Is he interested in steam or diesel or both? What era? Size of layout? Size of room?
As far as not hearing from the OP again, I have to agree with your comments,Paul. Whenever I initiate a thread, I do my best to stay involved and "manage" the discussion so that I get the information that I need and try to clarify what I don't understand.
After 3 pages of replies and nearly 60 hours of elapsed time, we need to hear back from the OP.
richhotrain MisterBeasley: HOn21/2: Don't buy ANYTHING unless you need it. That was going to be my suggestion, too, but with a caveat. The hobby is full of manufacturers who do "limited production runs." So, you can't always count on things being available a year from now. If there's a critical kit, car or engine that you know you will want, sometimes it's a good idea to buy it now rather than risk disappointment later on. Consider, as an example, the Walthers Car Float kit. This is a barge used for moving freight cars across short water gaps where bridges are impractical. The kit was "retired" by Walthers some years back, and the "black market" for them drove the price of a $40 dollar kit into the hundreds. Then, Walthers did another production run of both the kit and the Car Float Apron where it "docks" on a layout. I bought the apron right away, planning to get the car float itself once I was ready for it. To my great dismay, the production run ended and Walthers quickly ran out of stock. Fortunately, I managed to find one at Trainworld, so my story had a happy ending, but I thought I'd be searching train shows for years before I was able to come up with the kit. Mister Beasley, That is a great point. The list is endless with regard to retired or out of production items. In fact, that topic could be worthy of an entirely separate thread. A couple of structures that immediately come to mind are the Walthers 130' turntable and the Walthers Bascule Bridge. The list of retired or out of production locomotives is endless. Rich
MisterBeasley: HOn21/2: Don't buy ANYTHING unless you need it. That was going to be my suggestion, too, but with a caveat. The hobby is full of manufacturers who do "limited production runs." So, you can't always count on things being available a year from now. If there's a critical kit, car or engine that you know you will want, sometimes it's a good idea to buy it now rather than risk disappointment later on. Consider, as an example, the Walthers Car Float kit. This is a barge used for moving freight cars across short water gaps where bridges are impractical. The kit was "retired" by Walthers some years back, and the "black market" for them drove the price of a $40 dollar kit into the hundreds. Then, Walthers did another production run of both the kit and the Car Float Apron where it "docks" on a layout. I bought the apron right away, planning to get the car float itself once I was ready for it. To my great dismay, the production run ended and Walthers quickly ran out of stock. Fortunately, I managed to find one at Trainworld, so my story had a happy ending, but I thought I'd be searching train shows for years before I was able to come up with the kit.
HOn21/2: Don't buy ANYTHING unless you need it.
Don't buy ANYTHING unless you need it.
That was going to be my suggestion, too, but with a caveat. The hobby is full of manufacturers who do "limited production runs." So, you can't always count on things being available a year from now. If there's a critical kit, car or engine that you know you will want, sometimes it's a good idea to buy it now rather than risk disappointment later on.
Consider, as an example, the Walthers Car Float kit. This is a barge used for moving freight cars across short water gaps where bridges are impractical. The kit was "retired" by Walthers some years back, and the "black market" for them drove the price of a $40 dollar kit into the hundreds. Then, Walthers did another production run of both the kit and the Car Float Apron where it "docks" on a layout. I bought the apron right away, planning to get the car float itself once I was ready for it. To my great dismay, the production run ended and Walthers quickly ran out of stock. Fortunately, I managed to find one at Trainworld, so my story had a happy ending, but I thought I'd be searching train shows for years before I was able to come up with the kit.
Mister Beasley,
That is a great point.
The list is endless with regard to retired or out of production items. In fact, that topic could be worthy of an entirely separate thread.
A couple of structures that immediately come to mind are the Walthers 130' turntable and the Walthers Bascule Bridge.
The list of retired or out of production locomotives is endless.
Except that I would count this as something you need..... perhaps not today, but eventually.
Next layout: 40" curves minimum, #10s on the main, homasote everywhere and pre-plan signals and blocks better.
Next room: more light. Crew lounge. More light.
Current layout has 30" curves and #8s on the main, but long cars just don't look right.
MisterBeasley HOn21/2: Don't buy ANYTHING unless you need it. That was going to be my suggestion, too, but with a caveat. The hobby is full of manufacturers who do "limited production runs." So, you can't always count on things being available a year from now. If there's a critical kit, car or engine that you know you will want, sometimes it's a good idea to buy it now rather than risk disappointment later on. Consider, as an example, the Walthers Car Float kit. This is a barge used for moving freight cars across short water gaps where bridges are impractical. The kit was "retired" by Walthers some years back, and the "black market" for them drove the price of a $40 dollar kit into the hundreds. Then, Walthers did another production run of both the kit and the Car Float Apron where it "docks" on a layout. I bought the apron right away, planning to get the car float itself once I was ready for it. To my great dismay, the production run ended and Walthers quickly ran out of stock. Fortunately, I managed to find one at Trainworld, so my story had a happy ending, but I thought I'd be searching train shows for years before I was able to come up with the kit.
HOn21/2 Don't buy ANYTHING unless you need it.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Byron Henderson has a little list of 8 common mistakes in track plan design:http://mrsvc.blogspot.com/2006/10/tricky-traps-1-4.html
http://mrsvc.blogspot.com/2006/11/tricky-traps-5-8.html
And also some tips on the things he checks for when analyzing a track plan:http://mrsvc.blogspot.com/2008/02/track-plan-analysis-indexed.html
IMO, worth reading and considering.
Smile,Stein
I absolutly agree! Simple Track Layout in the beginning, and plenty of room for Towns, Hills, etc. You wont believe how much fun you'll have working on scenery! Good Luck!
Mark.
http://mwcohio.blogspot.com
Keep your grades gentle. Under 2%. Grades steeper than 2% mean even the best locomotives have trouble hauling themselves up the hill, let alone pulling cars.
Go for broad curves, 30 inch or more. So you can run 80 foot passenger cars and big steamers.
Color code or mark your wiring as you install it.
Do the back drop FIRST, even before doing benchwork. Even a plain blue sky improves a layout enormously AND gives a nice uncluttered background for photographs.
Read "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" (John Armstrong).
Plan for a walk around operations layout. Operators follow their trains around the layout, using wireless or plugin throttles. Turnout controls are located on the fascia, near the turnouts they control.
Put in a smooth clean floor, to make finding small dropped parts easy. Tile or linoleum. No carpet.
Put in plenty of lights. Also plenty of AC receptacles. Put the lights on one circuit breaker and the receptacles on another so that a stalled or short circuited tool that pops a circuit breaker doesn't put the lights out too.
Keep every thing with in reach from the aisles.
Good Luck and have fun.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Agreed about the backdrop, do it as early as you can, it can be a serious PITA to do after all the scenary is started, even designed with just track in the way can be challenging. Other things like dont be afraid to leave an area unsceniced until you re happy with your track layout.
Have fun with your trains
tomikawaTT The condensed version can be boiled down into four letters: KISS As in, "Keep it simple, Simon!" For openers, don't try to cram every possible noodle into the bowl of ramen. Leave the multi-slipswitch puzzle palaces for later - but also leave room to add them.
The condensed version can be boiled down into four letters:
KISS
As in, "Keep it simple, Simon!" For openers, don't try to cram every possible noodle into the bowl of ramen. Leave the multi-slipswitch puzzle palaces for later - but also leave room to add them.
Ahahah!!! Is it your personnal variation on the famous "Less is more"??? It's what my forme LHS told me once in my forming years... I didn't believe him until quite recently.
Anyway, well said... In the second phase of our layout rebuilding, we scrapped siding form the original plan as we built it. I don't feel any regret about it anymore.
It's always amazing how a simple, yet prototypical operated road, can take as much time to operate as a labyrinth. Many small and "simplist" switching layouts have recently enjoyed remarkable success.
Matt
Proudly modelling the Quebec Railway Light & Power Co since 1997.
http://www.hedley-junction.blogspot.com
http://www.harlem-station.blogspot.com
Hi Lion and Rich
Just for clarification, 'daisey chain' means to plug a second power strip into the first, and then a third into the second etc. etc. The power for all outlets comes from only one circuit.
First to answer Rich's question, with all those outlets available there could be the possibility that everything gets plugged into the same circuit. Boosters, accessory power, work lights, tools etc. all on the same circuit. That could very easily overload things and then you would be relying on the fuse/circuit breaker to save the day.
Lion is obviously aware of how much load he has on the circuit. In his first post he did not specify exactly what he had plugged into the circuit so I (wrongly) assumed the worst.
My main concern was to avoid someone who is less familiar with safe electricity use from assuming that it would be okay to feed the entire layout in that manner. I should have been more clear in my first post.