Getting ready to get started on my first HO layout, I'll be working in a 18x 20 area. I am staying away from any duckunders, lift outs ect..........
If you had to do it all over again, what would you change, include, or avoid?
Thanks,
David
On my 2.5' by 4' N scale portable layout, I would have avoided using fascia board on the bottom of the layout and just used it on the sides. It's MUCH heavier with the fascia board on the bottom, and I'm paying for that now.
The LION's layout is a walk in, and while I have made many changes on it recently, if you are rebuilding from scratch:
1) NO under table wiring. Wiring panels are along the front of the layout (behind a curtain, but you can do it differently, maybe shelves and doors under your layout). For switches, lights, relays and misc, I use a 25 pair cat 3 telephone cable and terminate it at panels about every 10 to 15 feet. Drop a wire below the layout and pull it over to the nearest panel. I did the same thing for track power except that I bought 250' of four conductor 14 ga in-the-wall type speaker wire. It is so nice using new wire after all of the found stuff I had been (and still am) using.
2) Install plenty of AC along the fascia. either get an electrician to do it, do it your self if you are able, or else daisy chain power strips if you have to.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Based on Davids question
See and operate as many layouts as you can!! I can't stress this one enough. You will see, discover & learn so many things that you may not have even known existed to even consider for your layout. The Op SIG group is great for this http://www.opsig.org/
Start with something smaller for your first layout. You can make just as many mistakes and learn from them on a smaller layout as you can a larger one..... Use this to define what you are looking for out of model railroading
Have an objective. Given and Druthers are a nice start but you need more. This should help http://www.layoutvision.com/id51.html It doesn't have to be cast in stone but you'll be happier with some form of direction. Also from Byron's site http://www.layoutvision.com/id13.html
Use quality materials. Don't go cheap on your materials. Wait if you must. This is for building your layout as well as outfitting it too.
Lastly, remember to have fun
ratled
bonus one - if you can get a quality mentor that will always help
Modeling the Klamath River area in HO on a proto-lanced sub of the SP “The State of Jefferson Line”
BroadwayLion
Daisy chain power strips??? I smell smoke!!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Similar thread from a while back with useful ideas, worth a look: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/167342.aspx
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama Similar thread from a while back with useful ideas, worth a look: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/167342.aspx
For a much longer take on my opinions, see the last post in the cited thread.
The condensed version can be boiled down into four letters:
KISS
As in, "Keep it simple, Simon!" For openers, don't try to cram every possible noodle into the bowl of ramen. Leave the multi-slipswitch puzzle palaces for later - but also leave room to add them.
I am building in a similar space - but I would NOT recommend my design to anyone not walking around in my socks (no shoes in a Japanese house, please.) It's the result of a lifetime of layout planning and construction, and embodies a concept that has been set in stone since 1964.
You've made a good start with, "No swinging gates, liftouts or duckunders." Now, if you can arrange to keep everything within reach of an access aisle, you'll really be on to something.
Good luck (found at the intersection of preparation and opportunity.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
After a number of layouts that used 4x4 or larger sheets of plywood I have gone modular and love it. I can rearrange and move things easily. I have an HO layout and all my modules are 2X4ft. Easy to work on and transport.
RMax
hi,
a 20 x18 area is huge. Staying away from duck-unders or lift-outs seems great. You could enter your plan on here, someone might find a few issues.
Since you stated you are rather new a lot of pitfalls could be yours. The most obvious one is building a to complicated and to large railroad. Having a masterplan in mind is not bad at all. Building in phases, sections or modules that can be accomplished in a limited amount of time is a great option.
Questions about the kind of operations you like, the era and locale and the kind of trains you would love to run will be asked. If you love bigboys with 50 cars in tow you also need big radii and long turnouts (R min between 30" and 40" and #8 turnouts); the same applies for passenger trains. Running trains can be done on many ways; is the emphasis on dispatching? Or when role-playing are you the engineer of a way-freight? How big a crew do you envision?
One of my first questions would be about the way you envision (un)coupling and about layout height; they can't be seen apart.
Anyway without knowing your wishes a sensible discussion is imposible. A drawing of your space, with all obsticles clearly visible (like doors) is a great way to start. A first draft of your plan as well, just as much as giving information about what you to achieve. Opening a general thread about other's mistakes sounds like a way to avoid showing your plans.
SmilePaul
Bluegill1 Getting ready to get started on my first HO layout, I'll be working in a 18x 20 area. I am staying away from any duckunders, lift outs ect.......... If you had to do it all over again, what would you change, include, or avoid? Thanks, David
If I had to do it all over again? any advice to you?
RUN!!! As FAR, AS FAST as you can!!! STEP AWAY from A layout!!!
You will get hooked, it will consume massive amounts of time, money and energy.
It will cause you to lie {"uh, no, honey, I've had THAT loco for a long time honey"], sneak around {"I'll be right there honey" as you sneak in a NEW loco to the layout}, and cheat {using strong hairspray to hold foliage on trees instead of glue because "who will know?"}.
It will provide long hours of enjoyment, amaze others and disturb pets! It will cause consternation when others want to "play with your tains too", especially when the wife says " aw,honey, let them'.
But it will be worth it.
*Decide in advance if you want DC or DCC and wire accordingly.
*solder frequent track joiners, but leave some for natural heat expansion to avoid buckling. Good electrical conductivity or DCC continuity will insure good operations.
*be sure to include enough feeder wires.
* test your track thoroughly before making it "permenant" to be sure you have good trackwork.
These and more will cause you fewer heartburns down the road.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Bluegill1 Getting ready to get started on my first HO layout, I'll be working in a 18x 20 area. I am staying away from any duckunders, lift outs ect.......... If you had to do it all over again, what would you change, include, or avoid?
You mentioned the five key words in your question.
"do it all over again"
No matter what people tell you, you are going to make mistakes, you are going to screw up, you are going to have regrets. Eventually, you are going to do it all over again.
Rather than ask, what would you change, include, or avoid, you should ask how did you do this or that?
You need to be concerned about things like framework and layout surfaces, height and width of layout, size of turnouts, wiring considerations, things like that.
After you build your first layout, you will find out what you like and what you dislike. You will learn what you did right and what you did wrong. Then, you will move on to build your second layout, and you will do it better.
Rich
Alton Junction
a 20 by 18 ft. area is HUGE and it just begs to be filled with track.
What would I do if I had that much space available for a layout?
I would certainly not fill it with a lot of track, but would use the space to build a simple layout, allowing for a lot of scenic details, just to give me this feeling of a train running through a generous scenery.
Less is more!
If I were starting over, I would obviously avoid ALL mistakes this time around.
Of course, I'm human, so that ain't gonna happen. Really, the BIGGEST mistake you can make is in not admitting that you made one.
Some classics that have killed me over the years:
1) Shoddy trackwork -- especially elevation changes
2) "It'll never show" -- sometimes it doesn't, but the camera has a way of finding all the little boo-boos in a fast hurry.
3) Rushing to get something done.
4) Forgetting to have fun along the way.
5) Not experimenting with different techniques and materials.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Hi,
My goodness, I've been there, done that. In the early '90s I built a room filling two level HO layout in a 11x15 spare room. It was in place for 14 years, until I striped the room and rebuilt a new one - similar in appearance, but with DCC.
During the building and life of the first one, I kept lists of "what went right", "what went wrong", "what I would do again", " what I wouldn't do again". Man, I ended up with a pretty good set of lists, referencing design, benchwork, wiring, scenery, etc., etc. The list was a terrific help in designing and building the new one.
To answer your question, the earlier layout had 5 major faults (IMHO) that I did not want to repeat:
- I built in a reverse loop on the incline going to the lower level staging area. It was an accident waiting to happen and I rarely used it.
- I built a raised reverse loop on the main level, which was nice, but took up a lot of valuable real estate and because it was raised, hid a lot of structures and scenery.
- I put in turnouts in tunnels and out of sight locations, making them hard to get to and were the source of many derailments due to operator error. Have to say, the Atlas turnouts/machines worked flawlessly.
- I got too ambitious with the number of blocks and wiring in three separate throttles. Between that and the reverse loops, if you were away from the layout for a week or more, you had to relearn it all over again.
- Lastly, I had way too many rock facings for the layout, and worse, I colored them too dark. As Emeril would say, you can always add (color), but you can't take away. The rocks and strata looked pretty good, but they were just overpowering and too dark.
One more comment, the best thing I did for the new layout was to convert to DCC. If it had been on the first layout, who knows, it might still be with me.
Good Luck!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
hon30critter BroadwayLion Daisy chain power strips??? I smell smoke!!! Dave
Nah... I am using high quality components, and they are there for convenience. I am using the same five tools no matter which one they are plugged in to, and of these, only two draw power at any one time, and of these the one on all of the time is a 20W soldering iron.
There are also two power drills, one for screws the other for holes, and two motor tools, one with a cut-off wheel and the other for other bits. Of these, I can only use one at a time. And they are not *really* daisy chained, but each one is plugged directly into a heavy duty extension cord, the kind with three recepticals at the end. So the LION feels safe with this arrangement.
Heretofore he was dragging extension cords on the floor, tripping over them, tangling them, walking on them and rolling my tool cart over them. This is much better.
Why would this be a fire hazard?
In building my current layout, I picked up a 12v DeWalt cordless drill - and about the same time I inherited the exact same model from my father in law. So with the two of them, and 4 batteries, I had one in use for drilling pilot holes and the other for attaching the screws.
Having the cordless drills was much more convenient then corded ones - but of course that was only workable by having the extra batteries so there was always two charged ones available.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Don't wait for the room to be perfect - if you can't get it ready in a year or less start building something anyway. Otherwise you'll still be waiting to get started ten years from now.
Enjoy
Paul
I have daisy chained power strips. They work fine, but they are not powering anything but wall warts. There is no big load.
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Make sure your track work is rock solid and bullet proof before adding any extensive amount of scenery. Run all your locomotives, rolling stock, backwards, forwards, slowly, fast, upside down if you could. You really want to find errors in the track work at the early stages of layout construction rather than later.
But most of all, have fun and don't be afraid to rip something out if it doesn't look right.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
Don't buy ANYTHING unless you need it.
Plan/work to have something operational quickly. On my previous (bigger/basement) layout, I was able to put in a fairly basic dogbone loop that had the turnouts already in place for the connections to the larger portions of the yet-to-be-built layout. That way I had a place to test run equipment, break in a locomotive, or just let a train run awhile while I worked on the rest of the layout. Getting something operational quickly will help maintain your motivation.
Bill
ACCESS -- The word is in all-caps for good reason, but then again, my first HO Scale layout was in jr-sr high when the lesson was learned.
If you ever need to reach it -- Be sure trackage is within reach whether it is (+) or (-) 32" benchwork width, or hidden trackage as in tunnels -- Always look ahead for access.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
sfcouple Make sure your track work is rock solid and bullet proof before adding any extensive amount of scenery. Run all your locomotives, rolling stock, backwards, forwards, slowly, fast, upside down if you could. You really want to find errors in the track work at the early stages of layout construction rather than later. But most of all, have fun and don't be afraid to rip something out if it doesn't look right. Wayne
Second that.. and tack down the track to make sure it all works before glueing it down forever. Last thing you want is to be laying track down and working your way around the room and find you missaligned at the end.
I have been really happy with everything I have done so far. I think this is because I researched everything every step of the way. Most of the info came from these forums. The one oversight I had was I forgot to paint my cork roadbed before laying the track. Not a biggie but I wished I had done it.
After taking all of the advise from this forum the few things I did that I am glad I did were.
1. Put up and paint your backdrop before you do anything else. It is a nightmare to do it after. I am glad I listened. Here is the proof. Show some willpower, do it first..
2. Take the time to get rock solid trackwork. Don't go to the next section until the one your working on is perfect. It can take some willpower.
3. Put planned turnouts in as you go. It is just easier to do it this way.
4. The religion of model railroading has many beliefs. Listen to them all and choose the path you wish to follow. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Make your trainroom a nice place to be. You will then spend more time there, produce better, and enjoy the hobby even more.
5. Don't get sucked in to pre ordering upcoming products. I did this a couple of times on supposedly short run items seven years ago. I can still get them now, but for half the price.
There are probably more things I could add but this is a good start from my perspective. Good luck and ask lots of questions.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Hi Lion and Rich
Just for clarification, 'daisey chain' means to plug a second power strip into the first, and then a third into the second etc. etc. The power for all outlets comes from only one circuit.
First to answer Rich's question, with all those outlets available there could be the possibility that everything gets plugged into the same circuit. Boosters, accessory power, work lights, tools etc. all on the same circuit. That could very easily overload things and then you would be relying on the fuse/circuit breaker to save the day.
Lion is obviously aware of how much load he has on the circuit. In his first post he did not specify exactly what he had plugged into the circuit so I (wrongly) assumed the worst.
My main concern was to avoid someone who is less familiar with safe electricity use from assuming that it would be okay to feed the entire layout in that manner. I should have been more clear in my first post.
tomikawaTT The condensed version can be boiled down into four letters: KISS As in, "Keep it simple, Simon!" For openers, don't try to cram every possible noodle into the bowl of ramen. Leave the multi-slipswitch puzzle palaces for later - but also leave room to add them.
Ahahah!!! Is it your personnal variation on the famous "Less is more"??? It's what my forme LHS told me once in my forming years... I didn't believe him until quite recently.
Anyway, well said... In the second phase of our layout rebuilding, we scrapped siding form the original plan as we built it. I don't feel any regret about it anymore.
It's always amazing how a simple, yet prototypical operated road, can take as much time to operate as a labyrinth. Many small and "simplist" switching layouts have recently enjoyed remarkable success.
Matt
Proudly modelling the Quebec Railway Light & Power Co since 1997.
http://www.hedley-junction.blogspot.com
http://www.harlem-station.blogspot.com
Agreed about the backdrop, do it as early as you can, it can be a serious PITA to do after all the scenary is started, even designed with just track in the way can be challenging. Other things like dont be afraid to leave an area unsceniced until you re happy with your track layout.
Have fun with your trains
Keep your grades gentle. Under 2%. Grades steeper than 2% mean even the best locomotives have trouble hauling themselves up the hill, let alone pulling cars.
Go for broad curves, 30 inch or more. So you can run 80 foot passenger cars and big steamers.
Color code or mark your wiring as you install it.
Do the back drop FIRST, even before doing benchwork. Even a plain blue sky improves a layout enormously AND gives a nice uncluttered background for photographs.
Read "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" (John Armstrong).
Plan for a walk around operations layout. Operators follow their trains around the layout, using wireless or plugin throttles. Turnout controls are located on the fascia, near the turnouts they control.
Put in a smooth clean floor, to make finding small dropped parts easy. Tile or linoleum. No carpet.
Put in plenty of lights. Also plenty of AC receptacles. Put the lights on one circuit breaker and the receptacles on another so that a stalled or short circuited tool that pops a circuit breaker doesn't put the lights out too.
Keep every thing with in reach from the aisles.
Good Luck and have fun.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com