I'm wondering if I could scrap the idea of using foam board on top of my layout. I've got this stuff 2" thick on top of 3/4" plywood, and I'm wondering if maybe I should just attach the track and roadbed directly to the plywood. I figure that would be enough that I could use Atlas under-table switch machines or a Tortoise since the combined thickness I'm guessing (plywood + roadbed) would be right at 1".
Might be better in the long run, I'm thinking, because I could wire under the layout and not have to have really long lengths of wire. Since the water feature I'm planning would not be very deep, I'm not sure it's worth making a 14' deep (approximately 2" in HO scale) water feature, instead making a bridge over the creek.
You don't have to use foam board at all if you don't want to use it. There are other methods for scenery that work just as well.
I attach my roadbed directly to strips of plywood that are mounted on risers. I do use foam board stacked and carved for landforms. And then I paint on plaster and attach rock molds to the foam board.
If you have you plywood base attached to risers, you can stack foam board below track grade and carve away at for your creek.
Craig
You see, that's kind of what I thought. I'm having a heck of a time getting the foam board back together and I could always use pieces of it for mountains and the like. And, yes, I do know not to cut it with a hot wire cutter.
So I get like maybe a 1" riser set and put the water under that, forming it directly on the table, right?
I got some really good plywood, so I think I'll do that. I got to thinking of a layout a friend of my father's showed me one time, and I didn't see any foam board. Plus, with the table one of my coworkers built for me, it looks pretty level as it is.
I assume I need to paint the plywood top first, or at least paint it when I get the roadbed laid down (which won't be for a while as I was recommended to get the layout working the way I wanted it first). Any suggestions?
The risers I am talking about are part of the bench work. They hold up the plywood that is usually cut out cookie cutter style.
But yes, you can buy the foam riser set to change track grades if you are building on a flat surface such as a hollow core door or sheet of plywood.
That's exactly what I'm doing. Not against cutting out plywood, but I'm going to mangle the board enough as it is.
Okay, I'll try it without the foam board. Seemed to work before, and I can mount the switch machines under the layout.
At this point, I can always go back to foam board, but this will give me greater flexibility.
Nothing is really required. There are many combinations that work well. But the idea that switch motors won't work with foam - I actually have 4" total of foam on top of 1/4" plywood and there are no issues with mounting my turnout motors. I happen to be using servos, with the Motrak mounting brackets, but that makes them end up being pretty much exactly like a Tortoise. Nothing special needs to be done, I just use longer pieces of piano wire than come with the Motrak mounts.
With just plywood you can glue a servo directly to the plywood. which is how my friend has been doing his. That might not work with layers of foam on top.
----Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I've been using 2 inch foam over plywood for the last couple of layouts and have no problems with tortoise machines. Just use thicker music wire. Foam is never required but it does lower the noise level and give you more options with scenery.
Springfield PA
I found that the plywood isn't necessary. I have lightweight benchwork and just 2-inch foam - no plywood at all.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
To answer your basic question, NO foam is nto needed.
Some build their layout with a plywood only base.
SOme build with a luan plywood and cover it with foam.
Some build with rigid foam on an open grid framework of 1 by's.
Some build a layouout table tehn build up the scenery with wads of paper covered with plaster of paris.
Some build the table then use the foam to create changes in terrain.
Some build a layout base that is all different heights to get terrain effects they want.
YOu can build you layout however you want. There is NO "carved in stone" or "hard fast rules".
One of the ideas behind using the foam is that it creats a lighter weight layout should you have to move it.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
OracleUsr I'm wondering if I could scrap the idea of using foam board on top of my layout. I've got this stuff 2" thick on top of 3/4" plywood, and I'm wondering if maybe I should just attach the track and roadbed directly to the plywood. I figure that would be enough that I could use Atlas under-table switch machines or a Tortoise since the combined thickness I'm guessing (plywood + roadbed) would be right at 1". Might be better in the long run, I'm thinking, because I could wire under the layout and not have to have really long lengths of wire. Since the water feature I'm planning would not be very deep, I'm not sure it's worth making a 14' deep (approximately 2" in HO scale) water feature, instead making a bridge over the creek.
I would disagree. It seems to me you are letting your choice of switch machines drive your scenery. There are many alternatives to Atlas under-the-table switch machines that don't have the 1" limitation; some of these were discussed in your other thread. To me, switch machines don't do much to help me create the desired final effect of my layout - the depth of a water feature definitely does. So I would give the water feature priority. That doesn't mean you have to use foam to get where you want to go; there are many alternatives there as well.
I think that often on early layouts in one's model railroading "career", one tends to forget that a flat table top is not a necessary element for building a layout. You can have places where foam and/or plywood don't exist - places where you can see the floor until the scenery is put in. The only parts of the layout that have to have something like foam and/or plywood is under the track - the rest is optional.
I personally don't think laying the track straight on the plywood is a great idea. I would use some kind of roadbed, with cork being my least favorite personally.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
My layout is built on a 2" x 4" frame with 1/2" plywood as the surface.
I drill 5/8" diameter holes in the plywood to mount my Tortoises.
The roadbed is 5mm Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed.
I see no use for foam board on my layout. Where bridges need to span water, I just remove an area of the plywood and built auxiliary supports out of plywood to support the bridge and trains running over the water.
Rich
Alton Junction
One of the nice things about foam over plywood is that if you decide to do any major changes, the foam will pull right up with the scenery on it. Underneath you'll have bare plywood to start over with another layer of foam..
One word, Sir, Homasote.
Jimmy
ROUTE ROCK!
One word, just foam, easy to cut and fix if you want to change something (and you will). Also you said something about not using a hot wire, as long as you use a hot wire less than 450 degrees, like WS's, no problem, you go (if I remember right) over 467 degrees and you can emit toxins!!!!!!!!!!
When I make my benchwork, instead of using a sheet of plywood under the foam, I nail 2" wide strips around the top edge of the frame of the benchwork. This gives me more surface to glue the foam to. When I used a full sheet of plywood, I found it a PITA to wire the track. I have areas of my layout, where the track is on top of foam up to 12" thick. I made a tool out of a wire hanger that works pretty much like a sewing needle to pull the wire through.
I sanded a point onto one end of a straightened wire hanger with a bench sander.
I flattened the other end of the hanger with a hammer and bench vise. Then, I drilled a hole in the end. Thread the wire through the "eye', and twist it around the end. Push the pointed end through the foam, then pull the wire through.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
If foamboard disappeared from the planet, I wouldn't miss it.
Homasote is awfully heavy. Is it really worth using?
When you say "just foam" what kind are you talking about?
OracleUsr Homasote is awfully heavy. Is it really worth using?
Homasote works just fine for roadbed, provided you support it with something solid. I'd think the weight wouldn't be a concern except for large portable sections that were intended to be moved frequently.
Rob Spangler
rrebellTwo inch blue, pink, whatever, personally I use the white beaded as the other stuff is usually not available to me on the west coast
Finding pink and blue foam in mild-winter areas
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
OracleUsrHomasote is awfully heavy. Is it really worth using?
I've used homasote instead of plywood & foam as a base for two past "flatter" layouts. Grid-benchwork underneath used 2-ft. centers, and was quite strong for weight-bearing/leaning during layout construction + exceptional for spiking track.
If foam had been available (and used) at that time as a layout base, I still would have used no less than 2-ft. grid-benchwork centers, but; the "fear factor" would be high anxiety for any intentional or accidental weight-bearing/leaning.
In fact, you'll find homasote is still a recommended layout component for subroadbed, and spline subroadbed. For example, see Homabed.
However, this time around, CR&T will use a plywood base, due to mission-critical traction line-pole stability + overhead wire-tension soldering. Foam will only be employed for targeted landscape shaping.
P.S,: The first major Model Railroader "project layout" using foam construction was Modeling the Clinchfield Railroad in N Scale by Gordon Odegard. Dave Frary perfected foam-use in The Pennsy Middle Division in HO Scale -- While out of print -- You can still secure an inexpensive PDF-download. Lighter foam construction was important as each layout was constructed for exhibition & train shows portability.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
OracleUsrI'm wondering if I could scrap the idea of using foam board on top of my layout. I've got this stuff 2" thick on top of 3/4" plywood, and I'm wondering if maybe I should just attach the track and roadbed directly to the plywood.
Personally I think putting 2" foam over 3/4" plywood is a huge waste of both plywood and foam. I use open benchwork and run the plywood only directly under the track. The foam fills in where the track road bed is not.
I actually got my hands on a 4'x8'x1/2" sheet of homasote and have it on top of the plywood. I can cut a small hole in that for a shallow creekbed, I think.
I have used 1/2 inch homasote over 1/2 inch plywood for years, in fact, current Santa Fe layout was started in 1984 using this combination. Wouldn't use anything else.
Bob
Texas ZepherWell, yes. For over 50 years model layouts ran just fine directly attached to the plywood. Extruded foam is a relatively new addition to the model railroad construction techniques. Why don't you just cut a hole in the plywood where you want the water feature? Personally I think putting 2" foam over 3/4" plywood is a huge waste of both plywood and foam. I use open benchwork and run the plywood only directly under the track. The foam fills in where the track road bed is not.
Why don't you just cut a hole in the plywood where you want the water feature?
Exactly. The idea of using foam board for scenery is really only about 20-25 years old. People have building layouts without it for at least 100. The consternation sometimes about being able to source foam board in some areas is kindof amusing, since there's a myriad of other possibilities. Foam is the current "fad" for layout building, but there are many other ways to skin the cat, as the expression goes.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
I'm old school when it comes to benchwork and subroadbed. I like 1x4 or 1x3 framing with 1/2-inch plywood or partical board subroad bed only in places where the track runs (not solid table top). I like to either use good old cord for the roadbed or homosote. Sheet homosote for yards where I can draw in the track centers and nail or spike down the track. (seal the homosote with some sort of paint to help it resist moisture absorbsion.
I don't like foam under the rails because I don't want to glue it down while I'm building it. Eventually when the track is where I want it, it will be held in place by the glued ballast (old school).
Ain't nothing wrong with foam for the scenery. I will probably experiment with it but I'll probably go with whats cheapest.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I wound up using the homasote board and it looks like a winning solution, plus I like the ground color it provided as a base.
Here are some pictures:
Here is what I use to test the track integrity, a freight car unpowered by the locomotive
Shouldn't have a layout without a bridge of some kind:
Here is a photo of the track plan...not the greatest, but I think the idea is there.
The next challenge will be the flex track in the upper left hand corner of the layout. Should I nail the track around the piece first after getting the track set correctly? Otherwise, I think it's going to be hard to cut and place the flextrack.
Our former HO modular club used good ol' Homasote on all 26 modules we built. LOVED it's solid feel and ease of spiking track down [did NOT spike turnouts, to avoid deforming them]. If we wanted to run a bit deeper creek/ river under r-o-w, we'd plan ahead and stack Homasote on that module. Health Warning on Extruded Foam Use: Club was in module-building session on a Saturday in member's garage. Extruded foam started being shaped with Surform rasps. Yours truly IMMEDIATELY became very ill! Have asthma; had NO idea how bad small foam particles would be to my respiratory system. Was doing carpentry; NOT even working with the foam and still became ill for whole day!. After that fiasco, we ALL started wearing respirators! A word to the wise. TTFN.....papasmurf
P.S. Still use foam for elevated landforms but WITH respirator/ good vacuuming of layout area, before mask is removed.