Hello All
I just finished the basic framing of my new layout. The frame is made up of 2x3 boards and stands on 2x3 legs that are average 46 inches high. Each leg is secured with a pair of 1/4 inch bolts. What is the best method to stabilize the benchwork to keep it from swaying? I know that it will stiffen up some when the plywood is put on but I think I'll need more on the legs.
Second question is how far should the supports be on a 2 foot wide bench when using 1/4 inch plywood? Also a 3 foot wide bench.
Thanks
Springfield PA
One thing you could easily do is to run a piece of 1X3 between each leg, on the inside, all around the benchwork, and about 24" off the ground. That does 2 things.
1.) It stabilizes the legs.
2.) You can now take some 1/2" mdf or plywood, and mount it onto those 1X3 boards here and there to make storage shelves.
By making it 24" off the ground, it will still give you plenty of storage space, while at the same time giving you space BENEATH any shelf to run a broom or mop or vacuum to keep the place clean. Alternately, you can use that same space for Rubbermaid storage containers, etc.
respects,
Thanks,
I was considering doing shelving and that pretty much answered that.
If you run leg supports on the horizontal, it will still wobble. You need them on an angle like in this pic. Think supports like you see on a gate.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The object is to keep rectangular leg structures from becoming rhomboids - and the best way to do that is to install diagonal braces. A simple, light X-brace on each pair of legs, and a diagonal brace across the bottom of the joists, converted a free standing table from tofu to granite in terms of rigidity.
I originally installed joists on 16 inch centers, but my benchwork is L-girder type and I have moved (or even removed) joists as necessary to provide proper support to the cookie-cut sub-roadbed at the tops of the risers. The ability to shift joists around is a major advantage of L-girder design.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
If I go with the shelving as Gwedd noted can the diagnal supports be on just one side and do the job?
Hamltnblue If I go with the shelving as Gwedd noted can the diagnal supports be on just one side and do the job?
I found that I needed a single diagonal on 3 sides of the leg foot print.
What I did on my benchwork was put a horizontal piece (I used 1x2) on the inside of each leg pair, and a single diagonal brace on the outside of the leg pairs.
Across the back I put a horizontal piece on the inside of the legs. I found that was not enough to stop the wobble. Adding a diagonal across the outside of the back 2 legs did the trick.
The closer you can get the diagonal to a 45 degree angle, the better it will work. Real shallow angles or near right angles don't have enough "diagonal" to set up the rigid triangle that prevents the wobbles.
just my experiences
Fred W
Thanks again. About the plywood bracing. How far apart should there be suppor for 2 and 3 foot wide benchwork?
I am trying the method of using aircraft cable to secure the layout. I have a concrete floor, and am able to anchor some eye bolts into the floor, and other eye bolts with "wood" threads into the underside of the top benchwork pieces. The aircraft cable thickness is 1/8" which is thin and even overkill for a layout, but so far works fantastic for any peninsulas and parts of the layout that cannot be secured to the walls. I have installed some turnbuckles to keep things tight, as well as having a large eye bolt attached to the underside of every leg to help adjust things if the floor isn't level.
The real advantage is that the strength of the aircraft cable eliminates "earthquakes" caused from someone bumping the layout. I'm sure that you could take a running leap at the layout and nothing would come off the rails.
One drawback is that you may lose space for undermount shelving because of the cables.
almo
Hamltnblue Hello All I just finished the basic framing of my new layout. The frame is made up of 2x3 boards and stands on 2x3 legs that are average 46 inches high. Each leg is secured with a pair of 1/4 inch bolts. What is the best method to stabilize the benchwork to keep it from swaying? I know that it will stiffen up some when the plywood is put on but I think I'll need more on the legs. Second question is how far should the supports be on a 2 foot wide bench when using 1/4 inch plywood? Also a 3 foot wide bench. Thanks
HB,
As others have indicated, the conventional wisdom is to diagonally brace the frame work for added stability, and I won't dispute that. However, all of my bench work is 2x4 framing with 1/2" plywood screwed on top of the frame work. I do not use diagonal bracing because I want complete access under the layout.
Instead of diagonal bracing, I match the horizontal 2x4's on the top of the framing with 2x4's on the bottom of the framing. That bottom framing along with the plywood screwed on top provides plenty of stability. True, I have to "step over" (crawl over) the bottom horizontal 2x4 to get under the layout, but that is no big deal. And, those bottom 2x4 members permit me to set up shelving off the basement floor by spanning the horizontal 2x4's with plywood.
As far as plywood supports, I place a 2x4 support every 24 inches. That is plenty. On a former layout, I did 16" OC spacing, but that was overkill. Plus, Murphy's Law set in, and every time I needed to install a Tortoise, a 2x4 support was in the way.
Rich
Alton Junction
I thought of installing shelving under my layout, but decided to hold off for the time being until I get all my wiring and switch machines in place. Even now I run into problems at times because the X bracing I used on the legs gets in the way when I am under the layout, fortunately I can temporarily remove these when I need access to certain areas. Using these braces and a horizontal brace on my legs has made my layout rock solid.
I would caution strongly against the use of 1/4" plywood....for anything! My friends and other posters on this list have had some success with 1/2". Not me. Our Maryland humidity swings have created plywood warping havoc even with 1/2" ply on the occasions when I've used that. Even if it's overkill my suggestion would be to use 3/4" unless you are in a region with very stable or low humidity. In terms of joist spacing I suggest 16".
Lance
Layout construction, design, and track plan books: http://www.shelflayouts.com/bookstore.htm
HoosierLine Even if it's overkill my suggestion would be to use 3/4" unless you are in a region with very stable or low humidity. In terms of joist spacing I suggest 16". Lance
Even if it's overkill my suggestion would be to use 3/4" unless you are in a region with very stable or low humidity. In terms of joist spacing I suggest 16".
Wow, Lance, you are the last guy that I am going to challenge.
But 16" OC joist spacing with 3/4" plywood?
I used wood gussets on the appropiate corners and the results have been excellent. The bench work is very solid.
Don't Ever Give Up
I didn't read your entire OP. I missed the part about the 1/4" plywood. To give you some reasons for my recommendations, common goals for benchwork:
In your case, the last apparently does not apply - I doubt you would use 2x3 studs if that were the case. I'm not sure how much priority you are giving to being able to modify easily. To me that's a big deal; to others not so much.
I'm assuming from your description and dimensions that you are using a ladder style grid that is 2-3 ft wide, using 2x3s for both the rail and the crosspieces (joists in Westcott's book). I am also assuming that your intention is to fasten the 1/4" plywood directly to the rails and joists from above. If this is true, please don't.
1/4" plywood is quite flexible. When laid flat, it needs to be supported every 8-12 inches to prevent it sagging between supports. And, because of its flexibility, it will conform itself to any uneveness in your support structures. Did you true up the top surfaces of the rails and crosspieces so that they are all within 1/16" of each other in the same horizontal plane? And is the wood seasoned enough that it will remain within 1/16" over time?
Westcott recommended 1/2" plywood on supports space at 16". I have used 1/2" plywood at up to 18" support spacing successfully. But my layout was full of grades, so that the plywood was generally bent. Bending plywood stresses it, and makes it much more rigid than laying it flat. I should note, however, that this was in the days of much better quality 1/2" plywood. I used 5 ply AB grade. And there are several known examples and reports where over time the 1/2" plywood sagged between the supports but the Homasote on top did not. That's why Lance and others with experience recommended 3/4" plywood. The other reason for 3/4" plywood is that will not conform itself readily to small uneveness in the tops of the rails and joists. Instead, it will bridge the low points.
The second point is that using risers and cleats to raise the plywood up above the tops of the rails and joists has several advantages.
The disadvantage of cleats and risers is the extra work, and it makes the whole assembly "thicker".
Other possibilites instead of getting thicker plywood are gluing foam or another piece of 1/4" plywood to your existing 1/4" plywood.
I have used both 1.5" and 2" extrude foam glued to 1/4" plywood very successfully. The result is rigid enough to space supports at 24". Just be careful to glue the 2 together on a totally flat surface. Otherwise, the combination will pick up and hold forever any curves in support while the glue sets. Don't ask me how I know this.
Gluing a second piece of 1/4" plywood also works well. The result is stronger than 1/2" plywood because of fewer voids and more plys in the sandwich.
just my thoughts and experiences
Not so much for vertical support Rich but that 16" spacing also provides some additional resistance against warping and bowing that I sometimes see even with 3/4". I do think there is a large variation in experience depending on the wood a person ends up with and their area of the country. In Maryland we go from sopping wet humidity in the summer to bone dry in the winter. At least for me that has made some of the wood I've used a little "wiggly". Also the the extra strength also comes in handy if you need a tornado shelter...
HoosierLine Not so much for vertical support Rich but that 16" spacing also provides some additional resistance against warping and bowing that I sometimes see even with 3/4". I do think there is a large variation in experience depending on the wood a person ends up with and their area of the country. In Maryland we go from sopping wet humidity in the summer to bone dry in the winter. At least for me that has made some of the wood I've used a little "wiggly". Also the the extra strength also comes in handy if you need a tornado shelter... Lance
Lance,
Thanks, I see your point about warping and bowing, makes sense.
Living up here in the Southwest Suburbs of Chicago, just outside "tornado alley", that added strength does have an added benefit as you say.
Some great reading and Suggestions. Thanks all
I'll read through the thread again before moving forward. As to the 1/4 inch plywood, we use it at the club with success which is why I picked it. I did leave out that there will be a 2 inch foam base on top which was already answered above as well. I think I'll experiment with the ideas on bracing but at a minimum I'll have some horizontal for shelving so I'll start there and add some of the ideas until it is good and solid.
Hamltnblue
Hey
The last 8 ft. I added to my layout is made with all joist etc. Ripped out of 3/4" plywood as in photo. solid, stable and straight. Just need a table saw. Just my opinion.
Have a good one.
Lee
Gwedd One thing you could easily do is to run a piece of 1X3 between each leg, on the inside, all around the benchwork, and about 24" off the ground. That does 2 things. 1.) It stabilizes the legs. 2.) You can now take some 1/2" mdf or plywood, and mount it onto those 1X3 boards here and there to make storage shelves. By making it 24" off the ground, it will still give you plenty of storage space, while at the same time giving you space BENEATH any shelf to run a broom or mop or vacuum to keep the place clean. Alternately, you can use that same space for Rubbermaid storage containers, etc. respects,
I'm sure if we did a physics or an engineering experiment, the diagonal bracing method would out perform the lower shelf method for stabilizing the legs. However, I have used the lower shelf method on my layout and the legs are rock solid. Also, I think it helps if the lower horizontal shelf is a solid piece of ply or MDF, rather than pieces or just horizontal 1x with no shelf at all. I would use at least 1/2 inch for the lower shelf. You could probably place short diagonal pieces in the upper corners or even gussets in addition to your lower shelf, but that might be overkill at that point.
Since you used 2x3 for the legs, that helps to eliminate wobble than if you would have used 1x or 2x2's.
- Douglas
Tonight I finished the top of the table including the joists for supporting the pywood. They're between 16 adn 18 inhces as suggested earlier. Distance was dictated by the length of the section. Also drilled the holes through the joists for wiring. Always best to do it before laying the ply. I have it basically level at this point and next thing is to stabalize it. I think I'll use diagonals along the wall and shelves to brace the rest.
Hi HB,
Just throwing the idea out there, but maybe think of using some of the 1/4 inch ply as leg bracing. I'm experimenting with making triangles of length 72 inches on the horizontal and 24 inches on the vertical.
Each 24 inch width should make 2 supports for my layouts legs (which is enough for me), and I am planning to take some of the 'meat' off the oblique side to use on the benchwork - waste not want not.
In theory, I hope this gives me the lateral strength in both directions of movement along its lineal axis.
Another benfit of this is that I can simply as a support brace (1x2) to the plywood where needed in order to mount a shelf if i ever want one.
Cheers,
Brett
The Railroad must get through . . . . .
http://blandfordrail.wordpress.com/
Cross brace each pair of legs along with gussets. If separate tables, once everything is level then bolt them together. I also use levelers on the bottom of each leg to do easy adjustments if need be. If you do this you should be able to sit on the benchwork and it will not move. Here you can see the legs...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55404580@N02/5390631644/
Hope this helps
M