On my current layout, which I built for personal enjoyment and not intended to be prototypical, I installed signals in the appropriate locations. However, I installed them so I could easily see them and their red/green lights from where I would most often be standing to operate the layout. So, the signals are not necessarily facing the direction of the train crew in all cases.
My question is this. What is the proper protocol for the placement of signals? When are they supposed to be seen from either direction? Are model signals made to be seen from both directions? Where are signals supposed to be placed and what type of signal is most appropriate in each instance?
I am not even sure of the right questions to be asked here, so don't hesitate to comment on what I need to know for my next layout which will be more prototypical if I can help it.
Thanks.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi!
I'm anxious to read the replies to your questions! Years ago I picked up a small Kalmbach book called "Signals" (I believe) and it was a major help in understanding what they are all about.
I believe (NOT positive) that signals are placed to give the train crews the best view. Most RRs run contrary to vehicle traffic on multi lane mains, so typically the signals would be on the left side - but not always. Also, as I recall from my youth, the C&NW is one of the majors that ran the same as vehicle traffic, and of course their may be others that do that too.
From a modeling perspective, especially if one has operating signals, I would want them placed so I could see them. Those that need to be pointed away from the operator could be dummies. After all, operating signals can cost some major bucks for even a relatively small layout.
Good luck!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
mobilman44 Most RRs run contrary to vehicle traffic on multi lane mains, so typically the signals would be on the left side
I'm not sure I agree with this. I believe that generally most railroads are right hand running. And the signals would be mounted facing the train on the right side, as this is the engineer's side. If the main is single track, then the signal for the opposite direction would be on the left side of the track and be facing the opposite direction.
On a multiple track main there would probably be an overhead signal bridge of some type. In this case the signal would face the on-coming train, and would be offset to the right. The opposing signal would be mounted on the other side of the signal bridge, and be offset to the other side where it could be seen by the engineer.
Regards
richhotrain My question is this. What is the proper protocol for the placement of signals? When are they supposed to be seen from either direction? Are model signals made to be seen from both directions? Where are signals supposed to be placed and what type of signal is most appropriate in each instance?
To completely answer your questions would require a couple books worth of answers.
Signals are obviously placed facing the direction of movement they govern. Where they are placed depends on what type of signal system is involved (ABS, CTC, Interlocking) and what they govern. Whether they display signals in both directions on the same mast depend on what type of signal system is involved (ABS, CTC, Interlocking) and what they govern.
Then there is the issue of what you are doing with regard to the model system, since many model signal systems aren't set up to operate like a prototype system. Many are just switch indicators, most don't have full intermediate and approach signals, many are set up for just 2 color (R/G) as opposed to prototype signals with 4 colors (red-yellow-green-lunar) and flashing aspects.
It might help narrow down and focus the answers if you told us what you were ging to use the signals to do, what prototype railroad or area you are modeling and what era.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
As noted above, it can vary with the prototype.
maxmanAnd the signals would be mounted facing the train on the right side, as this is the engineer's side. If the main is single track, then the signal for the opposite direction would be on the left side of the track and be facing the opposite direction.
On one of the lines I railfan regularly, older signals laid out like maxman mentions are being replaced with single masts that have both directions on them:
So era might be another factor to consider.
richhotrainWhere are signals supposed to be placed and what type of signal is most appropriate in each instance?
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/index.html
Wikipedia has a decent page too.
As far as the modeling them goes, I have only operated on one layout that had a signalling system. It seemed that the viewing angle was such that I could always see the aspects even though I was not sitting in the HO scale cab. I did not look too close, but I think either the bulbs were sticking out farther than the hoods, or the hoods didn't stick out as far.
I'd be interested in seeing pictures of model signals that are viewable from the aisles too...
OK, a memory jog results in one more edit. A guy on another forum I frequent is a signal nut and has a working system, at least on his old layout. I have never seen the layout in person, but he has an excellent website with plenty of videos. Here's the relevant page:
http://trainman86.webs.com/runningthelayout.htm
Maxman,
Ooops, my coffee hadn't kicked in yet and I got it backwards. I actually caught it myself as I was reading the postings, and then saw your note. Ha, I'm a pretty good typist and too many times I do not go back and check what I wrote. I need to work on that!
Moobilman, for lack of a better label you may have been afflicted with what I call "Mark's syndrome." When keyboarding, I'm often writing the opposite of what I'm thinking, like up/down, left/right, west/east, agree/disagree, etc. Proofreading closely often doesn't work, but immediately after posting the errors are glaring. Seems like I'm always editing my initial posts within minutes.
Is there a medical title/description for this affliction other than "mentally defective."
Mark
odave On one of the lines I railfan regularly, older signals laid out like maxman mentions are being replaced with single masts that have both directions on them:
Hmmm. Not sure what is going on here. Those signals look like they're facing 90 degrees from each other. Is one of the heads mounted temporarily?
Regarding visibility on the model....the signals on my friends railroad are generally close enough to the aisle that the "engineer" can see them as he walks with the train. There are certain locations, however, where the signal head is turned slightly toward the aisle so that the 1:1 scale engineer can see them. The HO engineers would probably have a visibility issue, but so far none of them have complained. Or maybe they are complaining and we can't hear their 1/87.1 scale voices.
maxman Is one of the heads mounted temporarily?
Sorry - when I took that picture, the signal had been newly installed but not yet activated, which is why the heads are turned aside. When it was activated, the heads were aligned with the track as normal.
markpierceIs there a medical title/description for this affliction other than "mentally defective."
"spatially challenged"?
odaveSo era might be another factor to consider.
That might be true. Most railroads run with the small hood forward, so I'd guess that there would be adequate visibility for the engineer to see the signal no matter which side of the rails it might be mounted. I would assume that as long as the engineers knew the rules for that section of railroad there would not be a problem, at least on a single track line. Not sure what they would do on multiple track.
I don't think you would find signals mounted that way when there was a boiler or long hood at the front of the engine.
Prototype signal heads have mounting adjustments so the light can be aligned for best sighting. If the track is curved, spreadlight or deflecting lenses may be required to make a wider beam. (Page 61 of Introduction to North American Railway Signaling by the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers)
An old timer, who is a retired railroad employee ,explained it to me this way "generally speaking most signals were located on the engineers side or what you people would call the right side not only for the fact that the engineer is the guy running the train so of course he should have clear view of the signal and also for the simple fact of logistics for the equipment needed to support the signal. To quote him "They don't work on air" so why run cables under the tracks and in the event that you have some sort of problem where the cables were effected you would now need to take up the tracks for repairs and halt revenue service again to quote him, "yeah like that would put a smile on the face of some mucky muck up in the front office" He ended his little railroading lesson by saying well there's always an exception to the rule and walked away with out explaining it...........lol
maxmanI don't think you would find signals mounted that way when there was a boiler or long hood at the front of the engine.
Any place a single mast is used for signals in both directions (such as the picture of the signals shown above), one signal will be on the "wrong side", the fireman's side for half the trains.
I don't believe the OP has provided any additional information on what he intends to use the signal system for or how complicated he wants to make it. Without some input on that it will be difficult to help him.
maxman Not sure what they would do on multiple track.
This line (CN's Holly Subdivision) is double tracked between Pontiac and Detroit. For the newly installed signals, each main track has its own single mast, mounted on the "outside" of the track. Each mast has two heads pointing in opposite directions, similar to the above.
But that's just this CN sub - other prototypes may be different. The OP will want to do some additional research when his focus has been narrowed beyond gathering background info.
dehusmanAny place a single mast is used for signals in both directions (such as the picture of the signals shown above), one signal will be on the "wrong side", the fireman's side for half the trains
Yes, Dave, I understand that and it seems pretty obvious to me that that would be the case. But era was mentioned above. So my question would be in the era of steam engines and 1st generation diesels operated long hood forward, where the engineer's visibility is restricted, would they have put two signals for opposing directions on the same mast, assuming a single track line? Or is this a "modern" day practice?
dehusman Any place a single mast is used for signals in both directions (such as the picture of the signals shown above), one signal will be on the "wrong side", the fireman's side for half the trains. I don't believe the OP has provided any additional information on what he intends to use the signal system for or how complicated he wants to make it. Without some input on that it will be difficult to help him.
Hey guys,
My apologies for starting this thread and then disappearing. My kids and grandkids are in town, and we have been running around visiting, and I have not been able to manage this thread until now.
dehusman indicated earlier in this thread that it might help narrow down and focus the answers if I told us what I was going to use the signals to do, what prototype railroad or area I am modeling and what era.
Good point.
Currenty, I have a large L-shaped layout with a double mainline, measuring 42'x22'. It is freelance and not based upon a prototype. I operate in DCC and the main control panel is at the point where the L forms two legs. All of my signals face this point, so that I can see them and their lights. But that means that an engineer coming toward me cannot necessarily see the lights on the signal. I have two types of operating signals, single and double searchlights and dwarf signals, green over red. I also have a few non-operating signal bridges.
I use the searchlights for all turnouts on the double mainline - - green for straight through and red for divergent. A single turnout has a single searchlight signal. A crossover has a double searchlight signal. Why do I do this? Quite honestly, when I set these signals up 7 years ago, I thought it looked cool and it helped to visually show me how the turnouts were set. I gave little regard to prototypical operation.
I use dwarf signals in my yard, again for all turnouts on yard ladders - - green for straight through and red for divergent.
I am contemplating a new layout which would be loosely based on the prototype by modeling the Santa Fe tracks from Alton Junction in Chicago at 21st Street into Dearborn Station at 8th Street. I have no desire to use block signals but, rather, to continue to use signals, searchlights and dwarf signals, to indicate the position of the turnouts. On the track route from 21st Street to 8th Street, there are at least three signal bridges over the 4 main C&WI tracks and the 2 Santa Fe tracks leading into Dearborn Station. I would like to model these signal bridges as operating signals.
My first question is: do these various signals have to be viewed from both directions to be prototypical?
My second question is: which side of the tracks is the searchlight signal placed?
My third question is: say a signal bridge spans 4 tracks leading into and out of Dearborn Station, what is the function of the lights on the bridge?
dehusman, you did a great job of answering these questions in your first response. Based upon my three questions raised here, any additional insights?
Any comments or advice, or criticisms, from everyone that you might have for me would be most appreciated.
As for the first two questions...
Up until the last decade or so, signals were required by regulation to be above and to the right of the track that they were controlling. Now they can be on either side of the track, so you do sometimes see a signal mast with two heads pointing in opposite directions. You would never have seen that before maybe the 1990's.
As for no. 3...
The answer above partially answers it, because you had to have the signal heads above and to the right of the track. If you had say a four track mainline, you often wouldn't have clearance between the tracks to install four separate signal masts between the tracks. Signal bridges allowed each signal to be above and to the right of the track as required. Signals could be placed on both sides of the signal bridge depending on the trackwork it was controlling.
This has changed a little in recent years, but traditionally a single head signal was a block signal, indicating whether the track blocks beyond was clear. Red means the block you're coming up to is occupied and you normally have to stop; yellow means the block is clear but the next block is occupied; green means the next two blocks are clear.
A double or triple head mast usually is an interlocking. This means that there is either a crossover from one mainline track to another (as you'd normally see approaching a busy station), a branchline branching off, or two rail lines crossing at grade. If you came up to a turnout where a branchline split from the mainline, you would see green over red if you were going on the mainline, red over green if you were going on the branch, and red over red if the turnout was aligned for a line that had the next block occupied.
The other two lines above, converging together to become one line, are often signalled in models by just using a single red or green signal head. However in the prototype often a "dummy" red light is added, so it can show green over red for clear or red over red for stop. That's because in the real world, red lights often don't mean "stop" but are "permissive", meaning you can slow way down and enter the block, prepared to stop at any obstruction. Interlocking signals are used at say a grade crossing because red over red ALWAYS means STOP, and there is no chance an engineer would confuse the signal and run thru the signal thinking it was permissive and cause an accident.
richhotrain My first question is: do these various signals have to be viewed from both directions to be prototypical?
They should be viewed by a train approaching them. If they don't point down the tracks then they are "out of service".
The same function as every other signal. To convey information regarding route, speed, authority and how trains approach the next signal.
If all you are doing is indicating switch position, then I wouldn't get too worked up on being "prototypical" since whatever you do will not be strictly prototype.
A couple of questions regarding searchlight signals.
On the prototype, where and when were single searchlight signals used versus double searchlight signals?
In my circumstances, if I am merely using searchlight signals to indicate the position of the turnout, would I always use single searchlights? Or, how offensive would it be if I used double searchlights for crossovers and single searchlights for simple turnouts?
Rich, I'm with you I built the layout for my enjoyment and I love to see the signals change. Its not prototypical but it sure is fun.
Wabashbud Rich, I'm with you I built the layout for my enjoyment and I love to see the signals change. Its not prototypical but it sure is fun.
It sure is fun. I have a desire to be prototypical, or at least to be "based upon the prototype", but at some point I just have to draw the line and be satisfied if it "looks real".
richhotrainA couple of questions regarding searchlight signals. On the prototype, where and when were single searchlight signals used versus double searchlight signals? In my circumstances, if I am merely using searchlight signals to indicate the position of the turnout, would I always use single searchlights? Or, how offensive would it be if I used double searchlights for crossovers and single searchlights for simple turnouts? Thanks. Rich
I am basing this on Canadian rules but in broad terms most US rules are similar.
A single searchlight signal can only give three indications, clear, stop, or prepare to stop at next signal (to simplify the operating rules definitions). Often even the red actually means stop and proceed at restricted speed, unless it has an plate with the letter "A" below it on the mast; then it means stay stopped.
Two heads in a vertical line provide the same "Absolute" stop indication if they are both red. They will provide information about the route ahead (speed or direction) if one or other searchlight (or both) shows something better than red.
Where they are staggered on a mast it indicates a permissive signal, similar to the single searchlight with no letter. When both red, stop and proceed at restricted speed. If it is red over yellow, say, then approach the next signal at slow speed because you will be taking a diverging track. Yellow over green means slow down to take the diverging route at the next signal, but expect clear track thereafter. The yellow indication with a single head would force the train to approach prepared to stop, which in areas with limited sight lines will slow it unnecessarily.
Generally, at facing point turnouts, or diamonds, the usual practice was to have two heads. When leaving double track or at the far end of a passing siding a single head could be used, usually with the "A" plate.
But model railroads are very compressed and to develop prototypically correct signaling would be a huge challenge. Most installations I have seen use simplified versions and they still look good, especially if they at least turn red when the block beyond is occupied.
John
Great information from everyone including the most recent info from cx500, dehusman and wjstix.
I realize that my questions on this issue present some difficulties in providing answers because I want my signal choice and placement to look real and prototypical, but I do not feel compelled to operate the signals prototypically. You guys have all done a splendid job in addressing my questions in this manner, and I appreciate it.
Incidentally, since my new layout will be "based upon the prototype", I need to select a time period to model, and it will be some time between the late 1940's and the early 1950's, so let's say 1948-1954.
Thanks again, and any further thoughts will be appreciated.
richhotrain On the prototype, where and when were single searchlight signals used versus double searchlight signals? In my circumstances, if I am merely using searchlight signals to indicate the position of the turnout, would I always use single searchlights? Or, how offensive would it be if I used double searchlights for crossovers and single searchlights for simple turnouts?
Searchlight signals are just a type or style of signal, they mean the same thing as any other type or style of signal in the same configuration.
The number of heads depends on the indication being communicated. Normally multiple head signals are used where a train leaves a main track and goes to another main track or siding. At a siding switch in CTC there would be 3 signals. On the main track on either side of the switch and one in the siding. All the signals would face away from the switch. The signal on the main track closest to the points of the switch would have 2 heads and all the rest would have 1.
At a crossover in CTC there would be 4 signals, two on each track, one on either side of the crossover, all facing away from the crossover. The signals closest to the points of the switch would have 2 heads and the signals on the frog ends of the crossover would have one head.
At interlockings it was common to have signals with 2 or 3 heads.
Switches to industrial spurs and yard tracks normally do not have signals.
cx500 A single searchlight signal can only give three indications, clear, stop, or prepare to stop at next signal (to simplify the operating rules definitions).
A single searchlight signal can only give three indications, clear, stop, or prepare to stop at next signal (to simplify the operating rules definitions).
Not necessarily...by adding a flashing feature, more aspects can be indicated.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
steemtrayn cx500 A single searchlight signal can only give three indications, clear, stop, or prepare to stop at next signal (to simplify the operating rules definitions). Not necessarily...by adding a flashing feature, more aspects can be indicated
Not necessarily...by adding a flashing feature, more aspects can be indicated
And by adding a letter or number plate you can get other alternatives. In the GCOR a single searchlight with no dwarf signal can display 8 different indications, with a dwarf signal, 16.
While I was very much aware that by adding flashing signals the number of indications of even a single head could be expanded, that adds a whole new layer of complexity that few will dare to attempt in model form. Has anybody tried, for example, to reproduce CROR#422 ("Slow to Limited"), which is a three head signal, red over flashing yellow over flashing green? I understood the original poster as intending a simplified representation while avoiding glaring misplacements.
To expand on another post, on some old ABS installations there were not always signals for each track at the end of a siding, instead just a mast with one head located on the single track beyond the turnout. Train Orders provided the sole movement authority; the signals were mostly a safety overlay. Approaching the siding there was usually a double headed signal, but even if it was "high green" for the mainline, if the train's orders required it to take the siding for a meet it would stop. A crew member would then line the switch (instant change in signal indication) and send the train into the siding.
The detail variations in signal installations are endless. I have seen or known of a number, just enough to be aware that there must be countless others. If you are modeling a specific prototype and location, want to be perfectly correct, AND have the ability to develop the necessary signal logic, try to meet your local signal maintainer. I suspect many of them will be astonished, and then proud of their job, to find somebody is that interested.
cx500 To expand on another post, on some old ABS installations there were not always signals for each track at the end of a siding, instead just a mast with one head located on the single track beyond the turnout. Train Orders provided the sole movement authority; the signals were mostly a safety overlay. Approaching the siding there was usually a double headed signal, but even if it was "high green" for the mainline, if the train's orders required it to take the siding for a meet it would stop. A crew member would then line the switch (instant change in signal indication) and send the train into the siding.
Exactly correct which is why I wanted to to know what type and purpose the signals were for.
The detail variations in signal installations are endless. I have seen or known of a number, just enough to be aware that there must be countless others. If you are modeling a specific prototype and location, want to be perfectly correct, AND have the ability to develop the necessary signal logic, try to meet your local signal maintainer.
Which is also why I asked. The less prototypical the intent of the signals, the more freedom and less specific the model signals need to be. While not diminishing the large amount of work it takes to install any form of signal system, pretty much anything above what accomplishes the goal becomes "scenery", so the pure functionality doesn't have to be too much of a concern. If you want to put a 3 head signal up, and all the signal does is indicate switch position, all you really need to display is 2 aspects (normal reverse). None of the other 15 possible indications a 3 head signal could display don't ever need to be shown.
richhotrain ... Incidentally, since my new layout will be "based upon the prototype", I need to select a time period to model, and it will be some time between the late 1940's and the early 1950's, so let's say 1948-1954. ... Rich
...
Incidentally, since my new layout will be "based upon the prototype", I need to select a time period to model, and it will be some time between the late 1940's and the early 1950's, so let's say 1948-1954. ...
You could try to pick up a book of operating rules at a train show, or find a website for a railroad's historical group. That would give you a few ideas and historically accurate info. The operating rules show signal aspects that an engine crew would encounter, and what they mean. There are usually special applications spelled out, too.
Seems like you settled on searchlight signals; there are also semaphore and color position light signals. Semaphore signals could have a lighted indication; I used to enjoy seeing them at night on the old Erie main across western New York. That would give you something visible on the layout from either direction. B&O and PRR had different types of color position light signals.
A railroad might have signals to indicate just block occupancy; most of the discussion so far has been about interlocking signals. Interlocking signals need to be located outside the interlocking (in advance of switches), to allow an opposing move to cross in front of a train stopped for a stop signal.
When I eventually get a layout built, I hope to have control panel indications in addition to wayside signals. A control panel would give you a way to "see" the signal operation.