Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
In New York the closest any railroad ever got to the downtown core was the underground approaches to the two major termini, and they were never used for freight. The only freight line on Manhattan was the New York Central's West Side line, which didn't venture far from the docks.
In Manhattan, at least, skyscrapers were office buildings, sometimes with retail establishments and banks in the lowest above-street levels. Most of them were heated by the New York Steam Company, so had no need for fuel deliveries. Paperwork deliveries were more likely to arrive in briefcases than in anything larger.
Someone who knows more about Chicago can detail the narrow-gauge electric tramway that ran under the center of town in that city. I believe that it was primarily for freight - but totally invisible from above.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - where the skyscrapers had trees growing on them)
I think Chicago did have a freight railway system beneath parts of the city. It would be a really neat thing to model, actually, but it was short cars and electric motors, as I recall, not something you're going to find RTR today.
I model subways myself. In the Boston system, there are subway stations which in some places are in the basements or sub-basements of downtown buildings. My own subways are right below the streets and buildings of my surface layout.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
At one time, there was an elevated line on the lower west side of Manhattan that ran through buildings. I don't know if that was used for deliveries or not.
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
Chicago's freight tunnels have been fully documented in the book Forty Feet Below by Bruce Moffat (Interurban Press). This operation used 4-wheel mine-type electric locomotives. It was 24" gauge; the system standard was 20-foot radius curves, and most of the tunnels were 6'9" wide and 7'6" high. The system hit a high of 59 miles of track in about 1916. This system operated until 1959, at which time 47 miles were still listed as in service. I recall seeing one of the tunnels that was exposed by street construction in Chicago in the 1960's.
I don't think that those freight tunnels go to the heart of the question, however, and Chicago has another example of standard gauge under a skyscraper right there on the lakefront. The tracks of the Illinois Central and the electrified suburban lines (operated by IC and the C,SS&SB) went directly under the Prudential Building near the north end of Grant Park. If one took the IC suburban from the south side, the last stop was actually in the basement of the Prudential Building. I believe that this is still the case. My father was a conductor on the IC out of Freeport, Illinois and there was a period when IC freight trains out of the Iowa lines would "tie up" with the locomotives directly under the Prudential Building. Crews were housed in the "Loop" YMCA at that time. Later, trains were routed all the way south to Markham Yard.
I don't recall seeing a siding for deliveries there under the Prudential Building. I suspect that "tracks under skyscrapers" is more an example of maximum use of valuable real estate and right-of-way than something for the supply of the building itself. Trains may thus pass under the building, but not a lot of activity loading or unloading down there.
Bill
I thought this site might help you and others a touch.
http://www.oldnyc.com/index.html
I've used it for inspiration on industrial areas. It will certainly give you a taste of NYC. You can see where some tracks ran through buildings. There was a high line that ran through Manhattan that has since been turned into a greenway as well. The name escapes me just now.
Cheers,
Glenn
"OldNYC" is an awesome site. Thanx for posting the link.
Chuck
Grand River & Monongah Railroad and subsidiary Monongah Railway
Capt. GrimekThe main line on my pike will have to pass under my skyscrapers but hoping to include a spur or three as well. I appreciate the help and info. Keep 'em coming if you have other examples? Cheers.
"Skyscrapers" don't use freight cars, they are office buildings, not manufacturing plants. The spurs under buildings in a city are not for office buildings but are for plants next to the office buildings. For example in Phillie the Bulletin newspaper and the USPO had spurs under street level. Neither of those were "skyscrapers" but large 4-5 story above ground buildings.
My suggestion is put a newspaper publisher or the main post office on the next city block behind the skyscraper and build the sky scraper on the air rights over the main line.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Not only does Chicago have skyscrapers built over the IC Tracks along the lakefront, it also has buildings above the tracks leading into Union Station. This being to the west of south branch of the river.
Again, this is mostly making use of the land (oddly, one of these structures is Boeing's Headquarters) However, what was once the world's largest Post Office sits above these tracks and would take delivery from the mail cars as they entered the station. Not really sure how this worked, but it could be an interesting operation to model.
Gary B.
Gary B
Fox River Valley Railroad
While that Forty Feet Below book has all kinds of good maps and even some drawings of the Chicago equipment, there is considerable information on-line as well, and here's one:
http://users.ameritech.net/chicagotunnel/tunnel1.html
It could/would be a fascinating scene to have the front of a layout serve as a cut-out down through the various levels of such a city site. The standard gauge RR tracks may have been there first, and the big building such as your Department Store were built overtop. Through the opening in the fascia one could see the tracks running under the street, and if you used that IC Chicago concept, you could put a stop under there for Suburban Trains. How handy to get off the train and take the escalator right on up into the store!
Then at the next lower level, you could have the freight tunnel similar to that in Chicago, which would handle all of the packages coming to and from that Department Store. "N" gauge is HOn30, so that is not that far off of the 2' prototype. This could be mostly hidden trackage, where the little train in the freight tunnel just appeared periodically and automatically stopped at the loading area under the store using an automated electronic control. Some of that old AHM HOn21/2 mine-car type cars (offered in the early 70's) would be very adaptable, and more modern N gauge locomotives are far more dependable and slower running than that AHM stuff was. A great deal of modeling could be put into a very small area with this kind of concept..... and then if you could even have an elevated station above all of that, supported by those nifty steel pillars. Why, the possibilities are astounding!
If I'm not mistaken, both Doc and Glenn are referring to the West Side Line, which was moved out of the middle of Tenth Avenue onto sometimes elevated, sometimes depressed right-of-way. The buildings which it served were hardly skyscrapers!
Two downtown, close to but not under skyscrapers, were the NYC Main Post Office, served by PRR and immediately adjacent to Penn Station, and the REA parcel handling facility adjacent to Grand Central. Both were served by passenger 'head end' cars, not ordinary freight equipment.
The closest the New York City subways ever came to hauling freight was a rather odd-looking car used to deliver coal to the elevated stations - the ticket booths were heated by pot-bellied stoves until sometime after WWII. The car itself resembled a two-bay hopper with a side-door caboose section between the slope sheets, and was pulled by a work motor. I saw the car itself, once, but have never seen a photo.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Capt. GrimekIn large cities such as Chicago, N.Y.C., etc. did industrial/delivery tracks ever terminate under skyscraper-ish buildings in the downtown core or as near to it as an industrial yard would get? What types of 'scrapers would get deliveries? Newspapers/paper/ink, government buildings? If this scenario existed, what modeling features and details would be good to have? Sidewalk elevators? Fork lifts/interior freight elevators? My layout is mid-1940s to transition era. I'm starting with Bachmann Cityscapes Metropolitan and Trade Tower Buildings and their "Dept. Store". Thanks.
in Chicago:
C&NW's Navy Pier line: http://www.chicagoswitching.com/v5/articles/article.asp?articleid=73
MILW's Kingsbury street: http://www.chicagoswitching.com/v5/articles/article.asp?articleid=28
And this in New York City (Manhattan):
Lehigh Valley's west 27th street freight yard - pier 66: Starrett - Lehigh Building (above the freight yard): http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/lv27.html
Maybe more interesting because the yard is in the open is neighbour B&O's west 26th street freight station:
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/bo26.html
I hope this gives you some inspiration.
greetings,
St. Louis, MO had/has some extensive underground rails. The downtown areas of the Metro train that runs from the airport, through downtown and out to the Mid American airport in Illinois are run in pre-existing tunnels under the city.
There's more information here: http://stlexplorer.wordpress.com/2009/12/31/tucker-avenue-train-tunnel/
In Chicago, the C&NW sold the "air rights" to a yard for the Merchandise Mart. I do not know if this yard is still in use, or if there were loading docks for the Merchandise Mart itself.
Dan
I bellieve the Navy Pier line and the tracks under the Merchandise Mart are one in the same. It also runs under Marina City and the Tribune Tower.
I have some under city tracks on my layout. The raised section with the pillars was orginally suppose to have the tracks under it, but they ended up in front. I also have my Union Station actually above my mainline due to lack of space. I think this maybe what you have in mind.
I'll post some pictures this weekend, if I figure out how.