I find it more than a little amazing how many new users jump on to this site and say, "I have this new train set / layout plan / train room, now please help."
I know I first got into the hobby 35 years ago when my father gave my brother and I a train set for Christmas. While that was fun for a while, I quickly lost interest in the "two loops on a ping pong table" and started something with some focus and a unified theme. I guess what made it work for me was that I wasn't afraid to chuck everything and start over if it didn't fit (yes, I still have a couple of structures, two locos, 6 freight cars, and a bunch of sectional track from that first layout).. This experience, however, taught me enough about what I DID want on a layout that my next experience (granted, it was 20 years later) was much more fulfilling.
So I though I might try to stimulate some discussion on this topic. For old hands, how can we get new entrants to the hobby to think through the basics (what railroad, what era, what location, what equipment), as well as some basic operational understanding (switching, yards, point-to-point vs continuous running) BEFORE they get in over their heads with a layout or plan that doesn't suit their needs.
For newcomers to the hobby, what gets you started in a given direction? A layout at a train show, a pre-fab track plan, a train set, or what?
Ultimately, it would be interesting to see if we can minimize the number of newcomers who charge ahead and then get frustrated, or jump on the forums having absolutely no idea how to proceed.
Any thoughts?
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Maybe we can get Kalmbach to reprint pages 2 to 6 of John Armstrong's 1983 18 Tailor-Made Model Railroad Track Plans which discusses the concept of givens & druthers and relative priorities (operations vs. mainline, running, track vs. scenery, etc.) along with his four page questionnaire that he used working with clients. [The book is out of print but copies can be found.]
I do like your questions/topics for thinking through the basics. What was the inspiration/raison d'etre should be the first.
Alan
PS
Stein posted this in the General Discussion forum [link] :
"Here is a link to page of the type of questions a for-hire layout designer ask his customers - the kind of things you should think through, and decide on for yourself, even if you were to hire someone else to do your layout planning for you: http://www.layoutvision.com/id13.html. Note that he says explicitly on his page that you don't have to have an firm and final answer for every single question on the web page above."
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
CTValleyRR So I though I might try to stimulate some discussion on this topic. For old hands, how can we get new entrants to the hobby to think through the basics (what railroad, what era, what location, what equipment), as well as some basic operational understanding (switching, yards, point-to-point vs continuous running) BEFORE they get in over their heads with a layout or plan that doesn't suit their needs.
The problem is that newcomers don't know what they don't know. They have no concept of what "operation" is or how switching is done.
Most forums don't discuss operations in any detail. On most forums the "operations" part of the forum is just a photo album of operating sessions, with little or no discussion.
One way to help is to try to have the modeler add operating features to the layouts or explain the use of various track features and moves. It is very common on this (and other forum) for somebody to post a plan of an operationally catatonic layout and 50 peole with "encourage" them with "Looks good to me.", "Good job!", "Looks fun to operate." comments. The trick is to offer suggestions without offending them, especially when they are showered with comments reinforcing the operationally deficient plan.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanMost forums don't discuss operations in any detail. On most forums the "operations" part of the forum is just a photo album of operating sessions, with little or no discussion.
Speaking as one of your newbies, I'll definitely concur with this part. There's an overwhelming amount of information out there on the technical aspects of laying and wiring track and an endless number of plans to browse. But, for those of us who didn't grow up railfanning, there's no convenient resource explaining how prototypical roads worked and how that translates into a simple model railroad track plan and/or operating session. Armstrong's book covers the prototype part of that, but it's in gruesome detail, and his application of those principles to layouts is aimed at much larger layouts than any newbie is likely to build. Koester's book on realistic operations is similar - lots of good ideas, but way over the head of someone new to the scene. What would be really helpful is a simple example of an operating session on a small layout, two trains maximum, describing what the trains are doing and why. Because really... how many people get started by building a 15'x20' walk-in with two yards, multiple towns, and service facilities? The best attempt at that that I saw was actually a little two-page article at the end of Kalmbach's "HO Railroad From Start to Finish". It was short, understandable, and free of unexplained railroad operations jargon ("the yardmaster", "the dispatcher", "waybills", etc.). More articles like that, fleshed out a bit to illustrate different industry and railroad operations, to explain some of that terminology, and to look back on implications for track planning would have been extremely helpful to me. I'm fairly experienced when it comes to diving into hobbies I don't understand and eventually pieced most of this together from various sources, but I think it turns off a lot of people. A short, newbie-targeted, and preferably free online resource of this type is much needed.
CTValleyRRI guess what made it work for me was that I wasn't afraid to chuck everything and start over if it didn't fit...
While I may be new to MRR, those very same words could come right out of my mouth in regards to, say, computer networking or backpacking or wargaming. To some extent, this is a result of the lack of good resources I described above - if the forum regulars seem to know everything and there's no easy reference to find it yourself, then it's easy to become dependent on them to do everything for you. But it's also, I'm afraid, a sign of the times. I've found that older folks (one of which I'm not, BTW - I'm a sprightly 33) are more comfortable with the attitude that you do some reasonable research, but then just get in and do it, make mistakes, learn from them, and do a better job the next time around. Today's world is all about pre-packaged solutions - "There's an App for that!" - and most younger folks and some older ones aren't comfortable with solving problems as you go. I wish I knew the solution for that - I know from experience that simply pointing people to good resources and being encouraging isn't always enough.
CTValleyRRFor newcomers to the hobby, what gets you started in a given direction? A layout at a train show, a pre-fab track plan, a train set, or what?
I'm a systematic type. I try to learn everything I reasonably can about the overall organization of a subject, then pick some tidbit that looks interesting, run with it, and see where it takes me. I didn't grow up close to the RR industry and knew basically nothing about specific roads or their operations. But being a Chicagoan, I was interested in modelling a Midwestern road, researched a few of them, and found the NKP's history pretty interesting. They also had cool Berkshires. Well, there's a good road to start with! I had an existing interest in WWII from my gaming background, so that seemed a reasonable era to pick. Having done some research on the various lines and nearby industries, I'm now at the point of settling on a particular location. I'm leaning toward Euclid, OH - it's named after my favorite geometer (I'm a math teacher, BTW), it has an interesting local short line (the Euclid RR, serving a nearby bluestone quarry), it's home to what was the premier producer of Art Deco metal decor (Chase Brass and Copper, which went on to produce munitions in WWII), and it's the birthplace of one my favorite sci-fi authors (Roger Zelazny). Alongside the historical research, I'm browsing track plans and considering how plausibly they could model what I'm interested in. At the same time, I'm fiddling around rearranging sectional track on my table to get a better sense of available space and the overall look of different plans.
So I didn't have any kind of firm goal when I started out - I just tried to learn what I could and followed whatever caught my interest. I'm happy with where that's taken me so far. But I suspect most people would approach the hobby rather differently, with some specific goal (road, operation, location, etc.) in mind.
I kind of get the feeling it bugs you to read those posts (like mine will be till I am up to speed)?
The internet is a new thing. Not too many years ago you could not post..."now help" so you had to just figure it out. I am doing both. There is so much new stuff out there, and some stuff you just don't find without a tip from a seasoned pro. I look at the people that answer, as people helping people. I will one day pass that along. If we all just told everyone to go figure it out then why have the forum? I post questions I cannot quite find an answer to. I look to the exp. people to possibly open a door, or shine some light; and they have... so thanks!
If noob post bug you just don't read them. Even better, get a members only area for seasoned people and police it so noobs are removed along with their posts. Everyone is a noob at something.... Shoot every day I have to teach my boss how to do our job.
I posted a question about road/rail bed. I would have never thought of using ceiling tile! but one of the answers explained in great detail everything I needed to do. THAT old dog taught me a new trick.
When I first got back into MRR, I spent all my down time at work trying to come up with a track plan to fit my 15' x 24' space. I found it very frustrating because there was always something that would put the kybosh on my trackplan. Thinking outside the box I thought how about filling the room with as much benchwork as possible while leaving enough space to make it a comfortable place to be. So I started drawing designs of just benchwork and not worrying about a trackplan.
Thinking that in real life the geography of the country wasn't made to accommodate the railroad, but rather the railroad had to work with the local geography. The only thing I worried about when designing the benchwork was that it had to accommodate minimum 30+ inch radius curves. I soon had my local geography in the form of benchwork done on paper. It covered the most surface area of the room while making doors and other things still accessible. By doing it this way I ended up with a much longer mainline than I had ever came up with by drawing trackplans.
The next thing to consider was industry. When the CPR pushed through to the west coast of Canada Industry soon started to pop up along the way. So not knowing to much about switching I started reading about it. I also went to Google Earth and started looking down at all the industrial areas to see what was involved with as far as sidings and access off the main line was handled. My conclusion was that in order not to foul up the main an appropriate amount of siding was always required. But in some places where you have a mountain on one side and a river on the other I did see sidings for some small industries go right off the main. I guess you work with the space you have in real life too.
I went back to my layout plan. Benchwork drawn up first and then a trackplan to fit my benchwork. I then looked at all the places I could put industries and the other things I wanted and boy did it all come together nicely. I had spots for lots of things that would require a siding and space to do it.
In conclusion I'll just say, that as soon as I realized that some industries would take up more than my entire room if I was to do them to scale I had to think a little differently. Always do your reseach and reading before proceeding to the next step. This includes learning at least a little about switching and ops. It is one more thing that makes the layout less toy like and and more like a real working model.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I think we need to lighten up a bit gentlemen and do for others that we wish some had done for us back in the day when we first got started. Let them profit from your years of experience and making mistakes. Tell me honestly that there isn't one of you who did something you wished you hadn't done and learned a lesson the hard way and would have much appreciated a senior or more experienced modeler say stop wait don't do that and here's why and this is what you should do. I recently met a world class celebrity modeler if you will who is building a new layout now after having torn down a very famous well published layout of 25 years. I was amazed when he told me and I'm paraphrasing a bit being it was so long since he had built a new layout that he was amazed at how much new stuff he didn't know and was learning so many new things about building a layout. Maybe they just weren't available way back when when a lot of us got started and maybe they were but we just didn't know about them. The internet is a fabulous invention that has changed our lives for ever and it's one of the greatest tools any model railroader especially the new ones has at his disposal. Think about way back when in the dark ages of model railroading when many got started and you wanted to build a certain structure or find the exact color of a Western Maryland Caboose used in 1954. You trudged off to a library and if you were lucky maybe you found something or you wnet to the hobby shop and had to purchase RMC or Model Railroader etc. hoping to find the right information. Now all you have to do is type in a search on Google.
I think it's great that some of these new guys charge head first into the hobby with great exuberance and full of great ideas or maybe none at all but at least they want into the hobby. So it's the responsibility if you will of more senior more experienced modelers to help them with their questions and be more helpful then condescending when ewbies ask what soem precive as stupid questions or don't know what their doing.
I have been in the classic car Ho trod motorcycle business for 37 years and have forgotten more about building hot rods then most people will ever know but when I go to a car show or a cruise night if some guy who doesn't even own a hot rod wants to ask me anything I will always take the time to answer him the best I can. My advice to them is don't be afraid to get into the hobby if you feel the passion to want to own or build one your never going to know anything if you don't start some place.
Thats all these guys are looking for is a place to start.
dehusman The problem is that newcomers don't know what they don't know.
Good point.
Another challenge is that lot of people seemingly are not familiar with the concept of trying to define their goals before looking for ways to reach those goals. It is a bit harder to get to where you want to go, when you don't know (even roughly) where you want to go :-)
And of course, even though some people might not like that I mention "the elephant in the room" : a lot of people cannot communicate very well in a written medium like a web forum.
If you can't spell and you can't use a dictionary or a spell checker, you can't use search engines very well. Mind you - I am not talking about just the odd typo here, or people who don't know the difference between "there" and "their", or such piddling issues.
If you cannot formulate a clear sentence or break your thoughts down into coherent paragraphs, it is hard for others (and yourself) to understand what you want to accomplish.
If you have had a tortured relationship with written texts, it is hard to use books and web pages to gather information.
In short - if someone is has a lot of trouble with expressing himself in writing, he or she will probably also have trouble gathering and making use of information already in place.
So - you reply to each new poster as he or she comes online and asks the first questions. Some get up to speed fast, some at an average tempo, some slow, some never.
Smile, Stein
(edited a little for clarity ...)
steinjr So - you reply to each new poster as he or she comes online and asks the first questions. Some get up to speed fast, some at an average tempo, some slow, some never. Smile, Stein
.. that´s life - you win a few and you lose a few ...
Seriously, I admire the patience some of you guys show in answering the sometimes not so intelligent questions raised here. However, there is a risk of "dumping" just to much of our knowledge on to someone who has yet to learn the basic language of model railroading, which may be discouraging to some of the newbies in here.Does it make sense to explain the details of a real railroad operation to someone, who just wants to put up a "train set" to watch trains running around a loop? Maybe not, but how to tell, how serious a guy is about entering into this fascinating and rewarding hobby?
IMHO, this is not the job of a forum, but should be vested with the LHS or local clubs.
I'm not sure a lot of newbies are going to listen to all that sound advice. I didn't. I read all kinds of good advice but I thought I knew what I wanted and I didn't pay much attention to all that good advice. As a result, I started two unsuccesful layouts. With newbies, a lot of time enthusiasm trumps reason. Some people just have to learn things through experience.
jecorbett I'm not sure a lot of newbies are going to listen to all that sound advice. I didn't. I read all kinds of good advice but I thought I knew what I wanted and I didn't pay much attention to all that good advice. As a result, I started two unsuccesful layouts. With newbies, a lot of time enthusiasm trumps reason. Some people just have to learn things through experience.
And I'm not sure that isn't all bad. A lot of people, such as the the original poster, are looking for a solution to "get it right the first time". The LDSig motto is "only make new mistakes".
Sometimes those mistakes aren't a waste of time. Consider them practice It may take years of bouncing around for the modeler to decide on what he or she wants out of a layout (or prototype or era or region). There may be an extraordinary few who know from the very first 1x4 exactly what they want to do. The vast majority or newcomers, not so much. Unfortunately the RTR, immediate gratification society we now have doesn't value the journey, They want to be beamed directly to the destination. I dno't the think the majority of new modelers know where their personal destination is.
There currently is more information available to modelers than there has been at any time. The beauty of the modern internet over old school books is that research is just a few clicks away. The danger of the internet over books is that the internet is not permanent. About 15-20 years ago I wrote a letter to the NMRA and told them that they needed to start a project where they sought out dispatchers and interviewed them to see how they operated TT&TO. I suggested that they send an interview team to the dispatch offices of the major railroads and solict dispatchers to be interviewed. that was going to be the last time there was a critical mass of TT&TO qualified dispatchers in concentrated locations.
TT&TO died about 1985. That means that to be a qood TT&TO dispatcher you had to have started dispatching in about 1980. Most railroaders retire with about 35 years of service. If you do the math that means that the within the next 5 years, the vast majority of dispatchers who actually operated TT&TO will have retired. Within the next 30 years the majority of people who operated trains, as crews or dispatchers, under TT&TO will be dead. There will be no one left who has actually seen it work. There will be no more first hand experience on the forums to answer questions.
By the way, to the best of my knowledge the NMRA did not act on my suggestion.
hi,
I always loved the cornerstones of good-design by Byron Henderson. His list can be made a bit longer; a short list with 12 points is all you need.
The NMRA-site is a prime exemple of what I do not want. Looking at the 10 points for good design I found them very abstract. And looking for data regarding radii and switch numbers i coudn't find any standards. A list like:
1 Did you not only drew your trackplan, but also your room or space with all obstacles?
2 Did you apply a 2,5 ratio for your minimum radius?
3 Did you apply a 4 ratio for your switches? (Devide your min. radius by 4 and you have a matching switch- number)
4 Did you use a higher switchnumber when S-curves are used.
5 Did you provide for staging?
6 Do you have at least one passing siding?
7 Do you have facing and trailing spurs?
8 Do you have spurs to at least a teamtrack, a freighthouse, an interchange and a big landmark industry?
9 Is the reach-in distance never more then 30"?
10 Is aisle-width never under 24", with an average aisle-width of 30"?
Questions about grades, easements and footprints are still missing.
Keep in mind this shortlist is meant for newbies, an experienced modeller will know which standards he can ease a bit. To many times the old hats are debating these standards over the heads of those who still have never heard or realised a big 2-10-2 steamer is not able to run over a 18" curve with #4 switches.
If a rather short posting like this one, allready gives the impression of being as long as and as boring as War and Peace, we are facing a different problem.
Paul
Paulus JasKeep in mind this shortlist [ the NMRA list] is meant for newbies, an experienced modeller will know which standards he can ease a bit.
Questions 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 are "technospeak" and probably mean nothing to newbies or even some moderately experience modelers. Actually I'm not sure a lot of new to the hobby know what staging is let alone a trailing spur.
Maybe I am not giving people enough credit for reading forums (or even MR), searching the internet or actually going out and buying a planning book (like those from John Armstrong or Tony Keoster ).
Doc in CTPaulus JasKeep in mind this shortlist [ the NMRA list] is meant for newbies, an experienced modeller will know which standards he can ease a bit. Questions 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 are "technospeak" and probably mean nothing to newbies or even some moderately experience modelers.
Questions 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 are "technospeak" and probably mean nothing to newbies or even some moderately experience modelers.
Right. I don't think it would be possible to create a single very short list of questions you can give to someone starting out with track planning, which magically will make him or her aware of most issues he or she should think about.
And of course - most people learn more from their own mistakes than from the advice of someone else. As the old saying goes: "good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment" :-)
Still - it can't harm people too bad to read a couple of pages of lessons one could possibly learn from someone else's experience. Here is another such lists of tips, where things are explained fairly clearly as we go along - it comes from Byron Henderson's Layout Design blog:
Track Plan Analysis: http://mrsvc.blogspot.com/2008/02/track-plan-analysis-indexed.html
steinjrit comes from Byron Henderson's Layout Design blog:
Actually it reads well and is informative (seen this stuff somewhere else), highly recommended reading. I seem to have stumbled into some of his cornerstones and avoided some (not all) of his planning pitfalls all on my own (or is it because I read it somewhere and think they are my thoughts?).
hi Doc,
the questions you mentioned are technostuff?
When building a modelrailroad you have to learn a couple of things. I never said this list can be used without any explanation. It is just the kind of very basic knowledge you need. Very easy, very simple to understand; if you want to learn.
It is the kind of information you wil find in every book; problem is you can make this list very long indeed. But every newbie should become aware of at least the pitfall that they can't run every train they fancy over every configuration of tracks. And that there is more then just laprunning.
For me it was a combination of things. While looking for O gauge sets to get for the Christmas tree, I started thinking back to my days as a kid and enjoying my HO and N scale trains. Then, while, window shopping at a LHS I started getting the urge to "play" with the N scale trains again. And after attending a local Rail Days, and seeing a number of HO and N scale layouts I decided building a small N scale layout would be a great way to spend some free time, help me relax, and bring the kids some enjoyment.
For me it's not all about operation, or era's, etc., it's just about relaxing and having some fun. I spent most of the past weekend crawling around underneath my layout working on the electrical and control panel drawer. Tedious work in some ways, but I enjoyed every minute of it.
Overtime I've made it a point to learn as much as I can, either through books, forums, or even simulator software. I think the key to avoid frustration is to first accept the simple fact that nothing happens overnight, and if you don't take your time and rush through it, you'll a) make tons of mistakes, and b) fail to enjoy the ride.
Quite an interesting discussion we have going on here - I just hope, it does not get out of hand.
You can lead a horse to the water, but you cannot make it drink. We cannot prevent anybody from making costly mistakes, unless he/she is willing to listen, to collect information from various sources and to communicate in an orderly manner.
I guess, we all started out with an oval made of snap track, a passing siding and a spur leading to whatever type of industry. We started to make scenery by covering a table top with something "green", put structures on it and glued some "trees" to it. In our days, the internet with its vast opportunities of information was not available, yet we learned - by reading a book or visiting a model railroading club. That´s the way I did it. Now we can share our knowledge, which we accumulated over decades. If we attach some small rules to the way we are prepared to share our knowledge with people who are asking us to do so, what´s so bad about it? IMHO, it is perfectly correct to expect properly articulated questions in a proper language, to expect feedback on the hints we give. We invite the posters asking questions to work with us - if he chooses not to, why bother to spend all the precious time in answering his questions?
BUT: We also have to learn to accept the fact, that not all members and guests in this forum thrive to become expert model railroaders. If they can get their fun out of that 4 by 8 with a loop or a figure 8 on it, so it be!
Enjoy!
tppytel What would be really helpful is a simple example of an operating session on a small layout, two trains maximum, describing what the trains are doing and why.
What would be really helpful is a simple example of an operating session on a small layout, two trains maximum, describing what the trains are doing and why.
Byron Henderson's website article "Starting Ops on a 4X8" is along those lines.
tppytel Today's world is all about pre-packaged solutions - "There's an App for that!" - and most younger folks and some older ones aren't comfortable with solving problems as you go.
Today's world is all about pre-packaged solutions - "There's an App for that!" - and most younger folks and some older ones aren't comfortable with solving problems as you go.
I agree. Sometimes it seems like some people just don't want to take the time read what's offered, and the nice, meaty posts by folks such as Stein (our own Tolstoy ) have no effect. But even if the OP doesn't want to invest the effort, others reading the thread will certainly benefit.
Conversely I do think that some people, mainly those who have trouble defining what they want or narrowing their focus, will benefit from just throwing some track down and running some trains. I would just remind them that they may not necessarily be satisfied with the results in the long term.
Sir Madog BUT: We also have to learn to accept the fact, that not all members and guests in this forum thrive to become expert model railroaders. If they can get their fun out of that 4 by 8 with a loop or a figure 8 on it, so it be!
Absolutely. A hobby is something we do because we think it is fun.Nobody should feel browbeaten into doing their model railroading in a way that is not fun for them, just because that is what someone else thinks is the fun way.
As I told another poster by PM a couple of days ago:
You must understand this: it is your layout. You are the boss of your layout. The rest of us can make suggestions about what to do and how to do it, but you are the one who have the final word about what will be done, and what will not be done, and how it will be done. If someone suggest a layout plan to you, and you mostly like it, but it doesn't have everything you want, you can say "I like this part of the plan, but I really wanted to have two trains running at the same time on my layout - any way to work that in ?", or some such thing. The important thing to remember is that it is your layout. You need to tell people what you want to have. They will try to give you some suggestions that fits your wishes. If what you want doesn't fit, they will tell you and suggest some alternatives. But you first need to tell them clearly what you want.
You must understand this: it is your layout. You are the boss of your layout. The rest of us can make suggestions about what to do and how to do it, but you are the one who have the final word about what will be done, and what will not be done, and how it will be done.
If someone suggest a layout plan to you, and you mostly like it, but it doesn't have everything you want, you can say "I like this part of the plan, but I really wanted to have two trains running at the same time on my layout - any way to work that in ?", or some such thing.
The important thing to remember is that it is your layout. You need to tell people what you want to have. They will try to give you some suggestions that fits your wishes. If what you want doesn't fit, they will tell you and suggest some alternatives.
But you first need to tell them clearly what you want.
IMO, getting advice never hurt anyone.Being asked to clarify what your goals are never hurt anyone.
You can always choose to disregard advice you don't want to follow.
It is harder to find any use of advice you never got :-)
Paulus Jas hi Doc, the questions you mentioned are technostuff?
Yes, Paul, technostuff (or technospeak). As has been said multiple times in posts on this forum, we all bring our own interests and concerns to model railroading. I'm not much of an operations person (see Stein's post preceding). I enjoy building structures etc. and am spending far more time detailing than I did 20 yrs ago. My layout design will allow for some operations, but I won't drive my design or scenery decisions on that basis.
As to the quote, I'm sorry but any site designed for new to the hobby types needs to be more fundamental. If someone wants to operate (as opposed to run) a layout, then they can go do more reading and learn about that. But to ask someone if they worried about leading and trailing spurs is not going to help them get started.
Personally, I think everyone should read John Armstrong's book on operations and planning, or any good planning / thought process sites out on the web. And while experience is good for learning, so is ripping up and redesigning layouts in a CAD or design program. I am on version 12 of my layout design and it keeps evolving as I notice what doesn't work, what is overly complex, what doesn't serve the various structures (industries for the operations people) and scenery.
hi Ulrich,
you hit the nail on the head, but
I hear the words of Spacemouse "even if you have the IQ of SpongeBob" or the words of a bitter ex HO-er "ït was not on the boxes". If you want to play football you will have to learn the rules, if you want to enjoy baseball you have to learn the rules. If you want to have an layout without derailments and with just a bit more then doing laps, you will have to learn the rules.
Just as learning what a pitcher does, you will have to learn what staging does. Just as knowing what a base is you will have to know what a trailing spur is. All Americans knew what Meat Loaf meant by getting to third base, so all modelrailroaders should know the relation between the length of their cars and the minimum radius.
If you don't want to know, your problem. Looking back never use the word bitter. And when learning some rules or words is immediately technospeak to you, you have the problem. If you want to find out your self, don't ask questions on a forum.
A shortlist of questions can have a lot of different uses. If someone response is like: i just want to run some trains, great. Another might ask to explain the difference between trailing and facing spurs. A third might respond like: Is it really impossible to push a cut of autoracks through a #4 crossover?
To me the biggest problem making a shortlist are the old hats, War and Peace long debates whether a 1:2.5 ratio or a 1:3 ratio should be mentioned, or no ratio at all.
if you do not want to understand something, don't try.
What you fancy, is your business. An easy question: do you have spurs and why do they all face the same direction?, is not meant to get them started. But when someone comes up in a forum with a design, it is an issue you can question. Or as was done in another design with lots of spurs going into different directions, you could question why a runaround or passing siding was omitted.
All very basic and very easy to understand. If it is techno stuff for you, great. If some one else thinks, hey sounds logic, also great.
If someone tells he is not much into operation I do not know what is meant by it. If it means: I like to sit in a armchair, with the cat on my lap, a cigar in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other, I get the picture. If you want to have your trains looking great, you can enter the ratio debate. Again this is not helping someone to start; if you are happy with one foot long coaches on a 26" radius you are happy with it. If a new kid in town wants to run one foot long coaches it is so easy to say that an18" radius won't work. Hundreds of postings with all different opinions will follow. Should we leave it for "newbies" by repeating tables by John Armstrong and Andy Sperandeo using a 30" radius and #6 switches. (and #8's when S-curves are involved)?
Paulus JasJust as learning what a pitcher does, you will have to learn what staging does. Just as knowing what a base is you will have to know what a trailing spur is. All Americans knew what Meat Loaf meant by getting to third base, so all modelrailroaders should know the relation between the length of their cars and the minimum radius.
By the time you need to know what that third base means, you've been familiar with the rules of baseball for over a decade. I'd hope.
But to keep the analogy going, you can enjoy or start to enjoy a sport without knowing all the technical stuff right off the bat. When you're a kid and you're going to play football, the uncle enlisted to be quarterback is just going to tell you go "go deep" because kids like to run in a straight line really fast. If you go out to play football with the kids and huddle up and start telling them to run go routes, slants, fades, and all that its just going to confuse them and be no fun. People can readily enjoy football on the "wow that guy tackled that guy right after he caught the ball" without going into "the mike linebacker who came in on the blitz bit on the play action and the quarterback was free to throw the screen to the flanker, but the corner was in tight man coverage and the play resulted in the loss of yardage."
On day 1 of wanting to play football, you probably don't know or even need to know what the difference between a flanker and a slot receiver is. To me, throwing all that stuff at a guy that's like "hey I just put a sheet of plywood over a ping pong table and put the track from under the Christmas tree on it what now" is just going to be overwhelming. My favorite model railroad book HO Railroad from Start to Finish basically starts with this premise and eases into everything in a completely logical way. And it doesnt even have off layout staging.
I think many of the "newbie questions" are more of how do I do this or how do I do that regarding the construction aspect of model railroading. I would say it safe to say that most if not all newbies have no idea what is meant by the term "Operation" thats something you get in the hospital right would be the typical response. Most want/need advice on the correct way to lay track, make turnouts aka switches to them function correctly. How do I keep my cars from derailing how do I make a mountain or a tunnel etc. There are very few people who venture into any hobby looking to get into the complicated or more complex aspects of the hobby right off the bat. Does a guy who wants to build an R/C plane with is kid and go to the park not knowing anything walk into a hobby shop and want ask to start off with a top of the line stunt flying airplane or something basic and rudimentary.
I know seasoned modeler who are extremely talented who have built fantastic model railroads who don't give a hoot about operation or doing this with that train or the proper length of a passing siding etc. etc. They do it for the love of building and the love of model trains. as long as it looks great and it works who cares and I tend ot agree with them. Model railroading allows you some free license if you will to create what isn't real and to make things the way you want them not necessarily the way someone e says they should be or the way the prototype did them. Isn't that part of the fun of the hobby creating what you want not what some else tell you you have to do, thats called work not fun.
Not everyone who ventures into a new hobby be it model railroading or R/C planes or riding motorcycles or anything stays in them very long and becomes very efficient at them or shal I say take them too seriously.
Lets be honest when you sit back and think about how much there really is involved in this hobby and how complex it can become it can be intimidating and the tail can definitely wag the dog no question about it. The best thing anyone can do is show newbies in the hobby what separates us from a lot of other hobbies. Our willingness to help the new guy and treat him the same as anyone else, you never know when a newbie might just be a diamond in the rough.
Original question in the thread was:
how can we get new entrants to the hobby to think through the basics (what railroad, what era, what location, what equipment), as well as some basic operational understanding (switching, yards, point-to-point vs continuous running) BEFORE they get in over their heads with a layout or plan that doesn't suit their needs.
The debate so far has strayed in various directions, as forum debates tend to do.
Some people seem to feel that there are some "basic rules" (or at least, basic recommendations) to planning a layout, everybody should know those rules/recommendations, and if you don't want to learn those rules, then by golly - you deserve a good tongue lashing
Well, okay - the tongue lashing bit is maybe going a little bit overboard
Some people seem feel that the most important thing is to not scare new people away by overwhelming them, so keep things very simple, and just let the new model railroaders make their own mistakes and learn from that.
Whatever you do - don't mention the war (*). Umm - I mean - don't mention things like staging - that may send new modelers into screaming hysterics
(*) - Sorry about that - just had a Fawlty Towers moment there ....
I guess I fall somewhere in between. I do not feel that new modelers will have to learn by heart all design recommendations before they will be allowed to play. We are not in track planning boot camp here, and it is a hobby - it is supposed to be fun.
But I also feel that it is generally a good idea to ask some questions to get a clear idea about what the new modeler is actually looking for, rather than to make assumption.
The new modeler probably will not know exactly what he or she is looking for (and he/she certainly won't know what he or she will be wanting to do 30 years down the line), but it is likely that they at least will have some rough idea about why they want to build a model railroad layout.
I also feel that it is generally a good idea to point out some possible pitfalls and non-obvious alternatives when a new modeler shows up, either holding a random track plan in his hand or looking for a track plan.
That new track plan doesn't have to have interchange tracks or staging or whatever. It doesn't need to be about one specific railroad in one specific location at one specific time.
It should have whatever functionality the new modeler wants. But tempered by some experience.
It is fair game to point out that a starting layout need not be a H0 scale trains on a loop with two spurs on a 4x8 foot table.
It is fair game to point out that a track plan has spurs which cannot be switched very well without a runaround, and then go on to explain about facing and trailing spurs and runaround moves.
Or to point out that curves are sharper than recommended for the equipment the new modeler wants to run.
And stuff like that.
If the new modeler doesn't want to listen to advice, no problem. Their layout, their choices. Let them make their own experiences.
But we do not need to take things to either extreme : demanding that new modelers have to learn all the "rules", or being so afraid of scaring people away that we don't present them with any complexity.
Smile, Stein (aka Leo Tolstoy ...)
steinjr If you can't spell and you can't use a dictionary or a spell checker, you can't use search engines very well. Mind you - I am not talking about just the odd typo here, or people who don't know the difference between "there" and "their", or such piddling issues. If you cannot formulate a clear sentence or break your thoughts down into coherent paragraphs, it is hard for others (and yourself) to understand what you want to accomplish.
As I said in a different post - any online forum is based on written communication. So, knowing the difference between 'there" and "their" or "to", "two", and "too" DOES make a difference in how the the person's written communication is interpreted. The ability to formulate a clear sentence, to get one's thoughts and questions into a coherent, intellegible paragraph is paramount to getting a good response. If I read a thread and it is poorly written, incoherent with poor grammar, spelling etc. I'm more likely than not will not respond to it. Typos are one thing, but if the OP doesn't take the time to properly formulate their post why should I waste my time responding with something when I've already wasted my time reading and trying to understand their post.
Also, if, based on the OP's post, it's easily apparent that they didn't bother trying to find an answer to their question before posting it for all to respond to, then why waste my time responding when the OP didn't feel it was worth their time trying to find an answer on their own. There are forum members who have been on this forum for quite awhile, post a lot fo questions, respond to a lot of questions yet haven't taken the time to be come familiar with basic terminology. They couldn't tell you the difference between switch points and a switch frog. Some may say "Big Deal" but when you're trying to explain something about a turnout then it becomes important.
To get back to the original premise of the OP, people need to invest a little of their own time on the subject their asking about. That would eliminate a lot of the newbies asking the same questions every week to 10 days. There seems to be a mindset amongst newbies to rush in and try to get something done or running and then ask questions like "What did I do wrong" or "How do I fix _____" instead of giving the project some real thought as to what the goal is, how to accomplish it or even is it achieveable or realistic. "Why think it about myself when I can go and ask someone else to solve it for me." Once you get people beyond this mindset then you can start to solve some of the issues cited by the OP.
Hi,
steinjr Some people seem to feel that there are some "basic rules" (or at least, basic recommendations) to planning a layout, everybody should know those rules/recommendations, and if you don't want to learn those rules, then by golly - you deserve a good tongue lashing
My feeling is there are basic recommendations and they should be made; if the OP wants to listen or not is his problem.
However my biggest worry is all the well meant advices by "pro's" or "would be pro's" , and all of them different. It may be difficult, but when a new kid in town is asking about the minimum radius, he is not waiting for my personal view: so I tell him he'll find the information for HO on page 17 in 102 Realistic TP's. The beauty of the 102 TP's book is another table with different values on page 24. For N-scale even both tables on page 17 have different value's.
IMHO it is not to difficult to explain why plan 12 (Montadon Branch, in very same book) has more goodies then plan 13 (Great Northern Ry), despite its pretty looking picture. Compare the rough plan from a Penn Nut with the plan Texas Zephyr drew and built in Junior High. But how to tell him in a, to him decent or acceptable way? O'Dave felt himself put down by the NMRA table, while he liked the LDSIG table.
So I can read, I can listen, I understand most of the stuff presented, but for me it is sometimes hard to say things in a nice way. I know, "C'est la tone qui fait la musique". OTOH we also have to accept that not every one masters that art.
CTValleyRR I find it more than a little amazing how many new users jump on to this site and say, "I have this new train set / layout plan / train room, now please help."
I'm not sure why you find it amazing. I get a train set. Set it up on the floor. Watch it chase it's tail around the oval for the 60 zillionth time. And I figure there's got to be more than this. This doesn't look like the display I saw at the club/museum/LHS. How do I get from the circle on the floor to the magnificent display I saw? In this day and age, the answer is I go search the Internet. I come across train.com - seems like a logical site to check. After wading through the ads, I come to the reader forums. Asking seems like the logical thing to do, since I don't see my question on the 1st page.
How can I, the newcomer, possibly know what era, prototype, or region I want to model? All I know is that the colors for railroad XYZ looked pretty good to me at the LHS. And I probably know enough to match the engine and caboose with the same railroad name. But I want to build my own version of that display I saw - how do I get there?
I would guess it's a combination of all 3. The train set (scale/gauge doesn't matter) is the 1st concrete step for most. The display layout stimulates the vision or dream - it could be just a photo in MR or in the LHS. It doesn't have to be a physical display layout. But if we remember back to when we really first started, I don't think the initial inspiration came from the prototype for very many, especially today. The pre-fab track plan is the 2nd step towards that vision, and the first beyond that train set.
Ultimately, it would be interesting to see if we can minimize the number of newcomers who charge ahead and then get frustrated, or jump on the forums having absolutely no idea how to proceed. Any thoughts?
I don't see that happening. Hobbies are supposed to involve the emotions as well as the intellect in order to bring us pleasure. If model railroading wasn't at least partially emotional, the great layouts would never be built.
Before Internet, how did we get our vision for our dream layout? From Lionel and other catalogs, from books, and from magazines - and maybe, once in a while - a physical visit to an already-built layout. The nice thing about the "good old days" is that the information was generated from one source, and didn't get contradicted 2 posts later. Catalogs, magazines, books are all one-way communication tools. At an LHS, you are pretty much a captive receiver of what the staff wants to tell you about how to proceed with the hobby. Same is true of visiting a layout. So for the most part, our instructions on next steps had some coherence and made some sense - whether for good or bad.
Post on this forum, asking whether trackplan X from book Z is a good one for a newbie to build - and what do you get? Use DCC, don't bother with DCC - and I, the newbie, don't even know without looking on the box whether my trainset used DCC or DC. Use foam and cork; no, use plywood and Homasote instead. Real model railroaders use metal wheels and Kadee couplers all their rolling stock. A 4x8 is a good starting point; no, it's not, build an around-the-walls layout instead, you'll be much happier. Of course, the question is never asked whether I have the money, carpentry skills and tools, or desire and interest to build more than the 4x8 at this time.
Plan your own layout, use ABC software. No, CDE software is much better in some way. Save the money and learning curve, draw with pencil and graph paper. Draw what? The only thing I the newbie have ever seen is multiple trains chasing their tails on a display layout. That's most likely the best I can do for a plan on the 1st try.
Anyway, you get my drift. It must be incredibly confusing and frustrating for a true newbie to receive the responses he does on this forum.
But my rant is not over. The newbie gets told his design is toy-like, and only runs trains on different paths in circles. Well, duh. What did I see in the display layout? Trains running in circles on perhaps rather convoluted paths. Isn't that what real model railroaders do? Didn't some 90+% of you (surprised me with how high a percentage it was) just confess that you did little more than glorified loop running in the thread on how you operated? Did any of you notice what a small minority of the posters spent their "operations" time switching?
Of course, nobody dares tell the newbie the truth. Most of us, if we even have functioning layouts, don't have layouts that are conducive to switching or T&T operations, no matter what our operational desires are. For switching, you have to have turnouts and rolling stock that doesn't derail, truly level track or roll prevention devices, locomotives that operate without a single jerk or hesitation at 5 scale MPH, and couplers that reliably couple and uncouple 99.99% of the time by whatever the specified method is. How many of our layouts consistently meet those criteria?
Timetable and train order ops are even more demanding. Multiple train staging, disciplined operators, a workable communications plan, and functional yards are all needed in addition to the requirements for switching operations. Yet we all criticize the newbie's planned layout if it isn't planned for T&T ops from the very beginning - a goal he has no realistic hope of achieving on the 1st layout (or likely, the 2nd, either).
Do I have a better suggestion? Unfortunately, no. Until we - the supposed mentors of the newbies - reach a consensus on a reasonable path for the majority of newbies, they are going to be confused by our contradictory recommendations, imposition of advanced practices before the newbie is ready to understand the reasons and pros and cons, and imposition of personal (but contradictory) views of how the hobby should be practiced.
If there are better ideas out there, I'm all ears.
Fred W
Mmm. I guess the new user has at least two main options:
If the new modeler wants advice on one simple, consistent and mostly reasonable for many people path to building a layout, he or she should go buy a starter book and follow that.
Say Jeff Wilson's "H0 scale Model Railroading - Getting Started in the Hobby" or Marty McGuirk's "N scale railroading: Getting started in the Hobby, second edition". Or one of the other starter books.
Any one of these books have the potential to lead the reader to a layout, provided he or she actually have the room for it in his or her home and is able to get the necessary skills.
If, on the other hand, the new modeler wants advice on at least some of the many alternate paths that can be followed, or customized/tailor made advice for his or her available space and wishes or dreams, he or she should ask questions in an interactive forum on the net.
And be prepared to get a lot of potentially conflicting advice.
Interactive user forums and books written by professional authors are different tools for different jobs.