Happy New Year All,
Well, it's time I admit that as far as track layout my skills draw a vacuum. I have been drawing and redrawing a proposed layout based on my home town of Chillicothe Ohio, approx 1949, but all I seem to come up with is drivel. To those of you who are good at track planning my hats off to you.
I did have access to the digital Sanborn maps but now I guess they are available to paid research only. While I had access I printed the most relevant maps but my printer was in need of ink so my copies are not super. I have them in jpeg format for what they are worth as well.
If anyone is really bored and wanted to help out another modeler I would love to have some help on the layout. What I am trying to design is a 14'x6'x30" shelf layout in HO based in some part of my hometown. I realize it won't be exact but a representation. The other option I have for my layout space has been designed as a car float dockside scene in S scale that I like. A CSX civil Engineer threw my S scale option together while he had a free min and it looks interesting. Would just like to see both so I can decide.
Thanks,
Tom
Tom,
On the new layout I freelanced the entire track plan well what there is of it right now and at times I am wish I had followed a predetermined plan so as I had better direction and would not be encountering some of the problems I have encountered that would be nothing for a more experienced modeler or one with more artistic talents then myself. I have an over all very general track plan but when I decide hey this looks like a good spot for an industry I cut in a turnout and a siding and so on and so forth.
That is why I highly recommend either checking out the interactive database on this website or pick a plan that closely resembles what your shooting for from one of the many track planning books available. I had the pleasure of meeting Harold Werthwein and visiting his Erie Wyoming Division layout. A true prototype model if there ever was one. When Harold gives you the nickle tour he tells you that just around that curve on top of that hill there used to be a little yellow house with a white picket fence around it, you can bet your last dollar that that little yellow house was there because he has pictures of it to prove it. He has numerous structures throughout the layout that are exactly as they used to be in the exact locations etc. The track plan is as close as it can be to being 100% right on the money copy of the prototype. Let me say a few things in his favor that most of us don't share. He is by far a master model railroader no question, he is what I like to say some what of an railroad historian as he knows the railroad he models probably better then anyone. He has an extremely large space to work in 40'x80' of memory serves me correct, and he's just plain old one talented man who really knows this hobby. But evenhe will tell you that one has to work with in the confines of the space he has available.So nothing can be exact 100%.
So if your like me and lack in some, many or all of the qualities that make a great model railroader then why not take advantage of one of these track planning resources and tweek it a bit here and there to make it your own.
hi Tom and Allegheny,
Allegheny2-6-6-6 so as I had better direction and would not be encountering some of the problems I have encountered
It would have been a great lesson if you would have described the problems you have encountered. My feeling is you wouldn't have seen the problems in the plans in the database too. But now you have learned from your mistakes, it's the road we all are taking.
IMHO the most "newbies" feel benchwork, wiring and tracklaying are the big problems; and scenery building is the great fun. In reality coherent planning is the big problem, The issues mentioned first can be a bit time consuming, but with a good book and some friends you will not encounter any major problems here.
I am really curious to the lessons of mr Allegheny; those lessons let you look at other plans in a different way.
Tom, I've seen the Sanborn maps in Chillicothe too. Not to difficult to come up with a nice switching layout. The major question is what you want. Watching trains crossing the river? You could post the Sanborn.jpg's and the drawings you made and explain why you didn't liked them.
BTW you could also show us the dockside design.
Paul
Paul,
So far all of my drawings have just made it to the trash, so I have nothing to show for my trials. Here however is a link with my S scale dockside railroad. Again please note I did not design this but Pete Silcox did.
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/kf4mat/TermDockRRlayout.jpg
Hi Tom,
I 've done some doodling on paper; the results are in the dustbin however. When you can post the Sanborn.jpeg's my memory will come back. I remember a junction between two major RR's with a nice depot; and a tight radius interchange around a roundhouse. And just before crossing the river a very modelable branch turned to the right. All these goodies just in the streets of Chillicothe.
The "proquest, welcome" entry is off, so it is up to you.
Paulus JasI 've done some doodling on paper; the results are in the dustbin however. When you can post the Sanborn.jpeg's my memory will come back. I remember a junction between two major RR's with a nice depot; and a tight radius interchange around a roundhouse. And just before crossing the river a very modelable branch turned to the right.
There is a verbal description (and some links to photos) in one of the old threads of the OP - click on the thread count under his name for the old posts.
From memory - the area could be described like this:
One RR line running north-south, crossed by a line running SE-NW. Union Depot at the intersection, in the SE corner.
All the interesting stuff is along the B&O (or C&O ?) line running SE-NW. To the east of the intersection is their yard and engine house, on the south side of the line.
Along the line running NW from the intersection there were various industries on both sides of the railroad line.
A industry area spur going off to the west about five blocks NW of the intersection. Quite a few industries along this spur.
Smile,Stein
Memory wasn't too far off - here is the description from an earlier thread - with some new comments added in [brackets], based on what I remember in my head about the Sanborn maps of the town:
You have a crossing between the B&O and the N&W downtown [N&W runs north-south, B&O SE-NW]. You have a union passenger station, a freight station, RR shops with a turntable, a transfer table and lots of interesting structures. You have little industry branch up by Riverside Avenue [branching off as a facing spur when heading NW on the leftmost of the two SE-NW mainlines] North of Riverside Avenue [off the left track of the double track main] you have the Coal Dock of the Union Coal and Ice Co [NW of the Riverside Avenue junction, spur heading off northwards], and a Junkyard [N of the Riverside Avenue Junction, spur curving down and right from the rightmost track of the double track main]. Along the Riverside Avenue branch you have a Wood Post company [trailing spur when heading into branch, south of branch, back towards the junction], a double ended siding for runaround moves [north side of industrial branch], a material waste yard with three tracks [three facing spurs below branch], the Standard Elevator and Supply co [trailing branch when heading up the branch from the junction] and several other industries [I think there might have been a power plant at the very end of the Riverside Avenue branch, by a small lake - but I am not totally sure about that one] Along the double track main from the RR crossing downtown NW to the Riverside industrial branch, you have the rail served Ice Plant of the Union Coal and Ice Co, you got a siding into C.A. Hertenstein Lumber Co, Hertenstein north of East 2nd Street, a spur into a wagon shed and a paper plant [from memory, everything but the paper plant was on the right/northern side of the double track SE-NW main, spurs branching off towards the north-west, paper plant was on southern side, spur heading off towards se - so everything was trailing spurs if SE bound traffic ran downwards on the right main, NW bound traffic ran upwards on the left main]
You have a crossing between the B&O and the N&W downtown [N&W runs north-south, B&O SE-NW]. You have a union passenger station, a freight station, RR shops with a turntable, a transfer table and lots of interesting structures.
You have little industry branch up by Riverside Avenue [branching off as a facing spur when heading NW on the leftmost of the two SE-NW mainlines]
North of Riverside Avenue [off the left track of the double track main] you have the Coal Dock of the Union Coal and Ice Co [NW of the Riverside Avenue junction, spur heading off northwards], and a Junkyard [N of the Riverside Avenue Junction, spur curving down and right from the rightmost track of the double track main].
Along the Riverside Avenue branch you have a Wood Post company [trailing spur when heading into branch, south of branch, back towards the junction], a double ended siding for runaround moves [north side of industrial branch], a material waste yard with three tracks [three facing spurs below branch], the Standard Elevator and Supply co [trailing branch when heading up the branch from the junction] and several other industries [I think there might have been a power plant at the very end of the Riverside Avenue branch, by a small lake - but I am not totally sure about that one]
Along the double track main from the RR crossing downtown NW to the Riverside industrial branch, you have the rail served Ice Plant of the Union Coal and Ice Co, you got a siding into C.A. Hertenstein Lumber Co, Hertenstein north of East 2nd Street, a spur into a wagon shed and a paper plant [from memory, everything but the paper plant was on the right/northern side of the double track SE-NW main, spurs branching off towards the north-west, paper plant was on southern side, spur heading off towards se - so everything was trailing spurs if SE bound traffic ran downwards on the right main, NW bound traffic ran upwards on the left main]
If the description is too unclear, let me know, and I'll try to draw a map from memory.
Here are some links to photos from the area:
Here are some links that might provide some possible inspiration:
http://rrstructuresandindustries.org/wiki/index.php?title=Chillicothe%2C_OH
http://bjw121.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=540083
http://home.frognet.net/~mcfadden/wd8rif/img/chillicothe_depot_jt.jpg
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~duplerd/oh/sohio_rr.html
http://www.chillicotheinfo.com/page.php?ID=2924
http://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/search.php?folio_filename=/home/www/imagebase.lib.vt.edu/web_root/xml/searches/imagebase-search-1260152947.xml&query_string=Chillicothe&num_rows=25&start_row=6&query_string=Chillicothe
Smile, Stein
Hi all,
I've uploaded the sanborn maps I was able to save before they were restricted. They are not the best quality but they convey what my hometown at least looked like before time left it for dead.
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/kf4mat/chill1001.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/kf4mat/chill2001.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/kf4mat/chill3001.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/kf4mat/chill4001.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/kf4mat/chill5001.jpg
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu172/kf4mat/chill6001.jpg
Will wonders never cease?????? I just found out that Chillicothe also at one time was served by the Scioto Valley Traction Company. It was a third rail 600vdc train that ran from Columbus to Circleville and then to Chillicothe. In Columbus they used overhead wires instead of a third rail.
Wow.....
kf4matChillicothe also at one time was served by the Scioto Valley Traction Company. It was a third rail 600vdc train that ran from Columbus to Circleville and then to Chillicothe. In Columbus they used overhead wires instead of a third rail.
Chillicothe also at one time was served by the Scioto Valley Traction Company. It was a third rail 600vdc train that ran from Columbus to Circleville and then to Chillicothe. In Columbus they used overhead wires instead of a third rail.
You just provided yourself some prototype inspiration for layout design. Who does your railroad serve as it goes from where to where? With the space you have available -- Can you include both a Class I RR like CSX and Traction line?
Example #1: Conemaugh Road & Traction is fictional but inspired by a combination of Johnstown Traction Traction Company (PCCs) and Conemaugh & Blacklick (Bethlehem Steel industrial RR) with a touch of interurban. CR&T (shorter radius) is surrounded by and interchanges with the Pennsy (larger radius) as a whistlestop rushing through the valley (using a glorified dogbone).
Example #2: CR&T's community of Conemaugh is adapted from a Model Railroader trackplan, The Chippewa Central, converting from HO Scale to N Scale. Other CR&T trackage, industries, carbarns, etc. are in-turn connected to this core trackplan (surrounded by the PRR).
Having a purpose <= going from here to there interchanging with who => for your railroad does go a long way to layout-design creativity. Also, taking your time to figure things out is not necessarily a bad thing -- Much better to do it right!
Suggestion #1: A dogbone trackplan is a good starting point for layout design while filling the middle (spurs of the straight tracks) of the dogbone with staging yard(s) and a town. Dogbones can be double-tracked, overlapped (bridged), and do not even have to be reverse looped on each end -- giving the appearance of a double-track mainline by using crossover switches on the 2 straight tracks.
Suggestion #2: Finding portions of published trackplans (like a Chippewa Central) that you like is also a good strategy -- But it is only a starting point to help give your railroad an operations purpose.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
tgindySuggestion #1: A dogbone trackplan is a good starting point for layout design while filling the middle (spurs of the straight tracks) of the dogbone with staging yard(s) and a town. Dogbones can be double-tracked, overlapped (bridged), and do not even have to be reverse looped on each end -- giving the appearance of a double-track mainline by using crossover switches on the 2 straight tracks.Suggestion #2: Finding portions of published trackplans (like a Chippewa Central) that you like is also a good strategy -- But it is only a starting point to help give your railroad an operations purpose.
Mmm - Tom didn't say in this thread, but as I understood him in his last thread, he was kinda looking for an urban switching layout in H0 scale on an L-shaped layout - 14 feet down one wall, 6 feet down the other wall, about 2 feet deep (?), based on railroading in Chilicothe in the - umm - I forget - 1950s ?
Could be that he has changed opinions on the footprint (or that I am remembering wrong). Tom - maybe you could say a couple of words about your layout goal/vision ?
Hi....
No Stein you are correct, still looking at an L shaped shelf style 14'x6' by 24 to 30 inches wide. I guess I could and probably should have just continued the former thread. The 1950's are okay with me that way I could use both steam and diesel power.
I would have to use artistic license to try and incorporate the traction company as it turned into a straight power company I believe in the late 20's could be kinda neat though.
"I am really curious to the lessons of mr Allegheny; those lessons let you look at other plans in a different way."
Well I'll try my best to explain how and why I feel this way, some may call it frustration other may call it being anal retentiveness aka a pain in the A _ _ . I have never been one for conventionality to color within the lines so to speak. Over the years of building hot rods, custom cars and motorcycles I developed a sort of attitude that actually fostered my business by not doing what everyone else was doing. I built from the heart and sole I had to feel a passion for what I was building and not what was the mainstream or popular thing to do. When garish colors and billet aluminum pieces flooded the market and everyone had to out do the next guy on how big the back tire was or how alleged custom car builder raved about putting together AC Cobra kit cars I was building what is now known as old school hot rods and motorcycles. Just the same way I did as a kid growing up in the 60's & 70's So to say I have never been one for conventionality or to follow a plan is an understatement. I feel building a model railroad is another form of expression and art form weather some like to refer to it as that or not. So a while back when I first got back into the hobby I met Howard Zane and visited his famous Piermont division To say I was awe struck didn't even come close to the feel I had when admiring every detail I could cram into my head. It was sensory overload at it's finest. There were trains running all over the place and not little 4 or 5 car consists but really nice long impressive trains, The scenery was nothing short of remarkable the basement was full of people just like myself fellow model railroaders who were equally amazed. Plus to fully enhance the experience his blue grass band "The New Southern Cow tippers" were playin some of the finest blue grass I had ever heard. He didn't build a model railroad he built a danged time machine for that couple of hours I was back in West Virgina in 1957.
I stood in front of one scene of Amy John falls a section he named after his two children and said to myself now this guy is a model railroader. He's not a talker he's a doer this is what I want to achieve.Up til this point I had only known met a very few people in the hobby who were better at talking then building and only had layouts more impressive then mine only because of their sheer size but this thing was beyond belief.
This is where the interesting part comes in, the whole time this is going on you have to picture Howard milling about talking to everyone answering all kinds of questions and not giving lip services answers but straight from the heart hey this is how I did this and did that, on top of which he's running up and down the stairs getting in a couple of songs per set with the band.
I was one of the many people full of questions and even speaking with him before all of this on the phone as I had purchased some rolling stock he had for sale to add to my roaster, he gave you a sense of you can do this. So you walked away inspired rather then I want to go home an tear down my layout and take up stamp collecting. I have attempted to build with the same passion and enthusiasm as I have done with my cars & bikes but even though I have gotten quite a few compliments on my new layout saying it's very reminiscent of John Allen's Gore & Daphedit which was not really what I was going for I still fell it lacking in functionality and design. In short what I sw in my head when I first started this project isn't what I am seeing right now. So some times frustration puses me towards feeling that I should have followed some one's track plan and just tweaked it here and there so as not to copy it straight off the paper.
I guess I won't know until it's done or almost done and if by them I am not happy with it even though my wife will want to kill me I'll tear it out and start over.
I apologize for the long winded explanation ut hey you asked........lol
hi Tom.
thx for the Sanborn maps, but difficult to read the names of the industries. And Stein, which harddisk are you using?
The tracks between the red line seems very modelable to me. It would be nice as some extra space for the waste tracks is available. It would help if you can make a drawing of your room; may be it will help to get a better idea about possible way's for staging.
Paulus JasAnd Stein, which harddisk are you using?
And Stein, which harddisk are you using?
Aging brain in graying box, mark 1 :-)
Paulus Jas
Not bad at all. As I recall it, the Union Ice and Coal Ice Plant and Hertenstein Lumber was on the other (right/east) side of the double track, spurs going upwards, while the paper plant was where you have Hertenstein Lumber in the figure above.
Also, there was a small rail served scrap yard just above Riverside Road, across the mains from the Union Coal and Ice Company Coal Dock. Spur curved down towards the right from the rightmost main.
But that is details in the big context.
Question is how to make a sensible selection for that L-shaped 2 foot wide shelf that is 14 x 6 feet.In H0 scale.
Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with!
hi Tom and Stein,
this is a first draft. I've still to tinker about some issues.
Wow, I never came close to anything like that. All I was able to accomplish was annoying the wife with all the maps on the floor recreating parts of my home town. The standard elevator and supply silos are long gone, though they were there when I lived in town. The ice plant was operated by the Union Coal and Ice company and they also owned the coal dock up by the river. Speaking of the coal dock it is still standing, not sure what they are planning to do with it but it is there.
The paper mill however, is several blocks South of the above image, even from the yard. It's located on Paint Street or between Paint and US 23 aka Bridge Street.
Paulus Jas hi Tom and Stein, this is a first draft. I've still to tinker about some issues. Paul
Holy crap!, you're fast..... my response and comment about the paper mill was refering to the image you posted earlier not with this one. That is a pretty neat layout, I wish I had that talent, seems I try and cram too much in and ruin it. For instance I was trying to start with the coal dock and somehow put it on the 45 degree angle where the corner of the 14' and 6' section meet.
To answer Stein's earlier question about the layout room the only difference to this image and mine would be moving the six foot section to the right hand end of the 14' section. I guess the easiest way to describe my situation would be to say if looking at the front of the house: the layout will attach to the back wall, go 14 feet to the right hand side of the house, turn the obligatory 90 degrees and come six feet back towards the front of the house. If that makes any sense.
kf4matPaulus Jas hi Tom and Stein, this is a first draft. I've still to tinker about some issues. Paul Holy crap!, you're fast..... my response and comment about the paper mill was refering to the image you posted earlier not with this one. That is a pretty neat layout, I wish I had that talent, seems I try and cram too much in and ruin it. For instance I was trying to start with the coal dock and somehow put it on the 45 degree angle where the corner of the 14' and 6' section meet. To answer Stein's earlier question about the layout room the only difference to this image and mine would be moving the six foot section to the right hand end of the 14' section. I guess the easiest way to describe my situation would be to say if looking at the front of the house: the layout will attach to the back wall, go 14 feet to the right hand side of the house, turn the obligatory 90 degrees and come six feet back towards the front of the house. If that makes any sense. Tom
Mmm - you mean like just mirroring (or "flipping") the image ? Like this:
Didn't bother to redraw the whole track plan - as I understood Paul he still had some minor tweaks he wanted to make to the plan ?
Hi Tom and Stein,
I am lacking a bit of feed back. So some thoughts and questions.
The N&W spur is only "hidden" behind the scrapyard, with just space for a short engine and three fourty-feeters. Seems just right for me, but is it enough for you?
The road and the N&W track at the crossing should be flipped, to create space for the landmark depot at the right spot. But can I shorten the yardtracks with 4 or 5 inches?
I played a bit with radii and switchnumbers. On the main #6's are used, on the branches and in the yard #4's and a 18" radius. But two spurs have a 15"radius and one snapswitch is used for the lowest track of the waste yard.
Can a cassette be added to the short leg?; representing the elevators and the powerplant. What are you thoughts about manual staging (interchange)?
Do you like the prototypical road pattern?
The track adjacent to the interchange track can be a team track, while the building at the top of the yard could be the B&O freighthouse.
When the layout is flipped it looses it natural orientation; i also explored to focus more on the branch along Riverside Avn,
When the short leg was two feet longer it could be an alternative, I prefer the more urban feel of Chillicothe in the first design.
BTW one of my intentions for 2010 is to not draw anything at all, if no drawing of the room is provided.
Paulus Jas Hi Tom and Stein, I am lacking a bit of feed back. So some thoughts and questions.
Well, I guess the important thing is to get the feedback from Tom on what he want and like about the design.
For whatever it is worth - here are my thoughts:
I noticed that one. Not bad with a live interchange on such a small layout. What do you say, Tom ?
Tom ?
Do you like the prototypical road pattern? The track adjacent to the interchange track can be a team track, while the building at the top of the yard could be the B&O freighthouse.
I like the roads - helps a lot with the look and feel!
When the layout is flipped it looses it natural orientation;
Still - that is the way the available room is oriented. And I also think your first track plan (with the emphasis on the SE-NW mainline) looked most tempting, even if you flip it.
Anyways - I can see wht you need some feedback from Tom here.
Tom - how do you want to proceed on this plan ?
steinjr Paulus Jas Hi Tom and Stein, I am lacking a bit of feed back. So some thoughts and questions. Well, I guess the important thing is to get the feedback from Tom on what he want and like about the design. For whatever it is worth - here are my thoughts: The N&W spur is only "hidden" behind the scrapyard, with just space for a short engine and three fourty-feeters. Seems just right for me, but is it enough for you? I noticed that one. Not bad with a live interchange on such a small layout. What do you say, Tom ? The road and the N&W track at the crossing should be flipped, to create space for the landmark depot at the right spot. But can I shorten the yardtracks with 4 or 5 inches? Tom ? Do you like the prototypical road pattern? The track adjacent to the interchange track can be a team track, while the building at the top of the yard could be the B&O freighthouse. I like the roads - helps a lot with the look and feel! When the layout is flipped it looses it natural orientation; Still - that is the way the available room is oriented. And I also think your first track plan (with the emphasis on the SE-NW mainline) looked most tempting, even if you flip it.Anyways - I can see wht you need some feedback from Tom here. Tom - how do you want to proceed on this plan ?Smile,Stein
Hi Paulus and Stein!
Sorry for the delay in responding, I have been caught up in researching some information of a family matter. My father is mapping out the family genealogy and I was verifying that I do indeed have an ancestor who was a confederate soldier during the US Civil War. (I'm excited about that)
Anyway, I am in awe of this layout design.... I never had anything that even remotely resembled this. So to answer questions and or provide feedback:
I do like the Norfolk and Western interchange, I wasn't able to incorporate that into my design. As a neophyte may I ask if this is a "live" interchange or static? This is not a concern one way or the other just a question. At the front edge of this I guess it could be possibly to add in the N&W freight depot.
The B&O depot/hotel, at least I think it was a hotel, would be a neat addition, unfortunately I have no memories of the depot being there and I will ask my Dad but I believe they took it down several years ago. That would be the cities logic though, raze an historic building but keep the coal dock.
The prototypical road pattern really makes the layout! I especially like the tracks that are in the roadway itself. While today 99.9% of it has been taken out I can remember driving over those tracks many many times when I was a resident. I can especially remember the turn out at the intersection of Riverside, Water and Paint street. It lead off to the silos at the Standard Elevator, you would cross it if you were coming or going out of the park or to go down Riverside.
Flipping the layout is an unfortunate fact of the layout room, and probably why my designs sucked. I realize that this will make not a true representation of Chillicothe but rather one of artistic license and I am fine with that. What I would like is to have it represent my hometown and if someone saw it they could at least know what it was.