I'm sure some of you have been in this situation. I have started to build, and have discovered some issues with my layout that I don't like. The main issues are:
1. The train coming out of staging is going the wrong way to run my long run along the main line.
2. The double tracks don't give me the long-run illusion I was looking for.
3. The tracks are too close to the background, not letting me use for sidings to an industrial area - It becomes more of squeezing stuff in.
Here is my layout as it is now:
Here is a plan that I think addresses the issues:
The yard area is low and inclines up to the main tracks. Before I do anything else -ie: rip up tracks etc, I'd like some feedback on good/bad, etc. The good thing about the new layout is I think it gives a nice run from the bottom left around twice. I am thinking of putting some scenery to hide the far right track to add to the illusion. Any of those kinds of ideas would be helpful. For those who don't know - I am running a GO Train passenger commuter service with three stations, with an option to run a loop, and some freight switching to industries.
ETA: I forgot the runaround in the yard, it should still be there...
My Build Thread: https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/185298.aspx
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Hi Aralai,
I've put some idea's on paper.
Only the staging is on an other location, and I added a passing siding. The minimum radius is 22"and switches are #4 unless indicated differently on the plan.
Have fun and keep smiling
Paul
Thanks Paul - some great ideas! Bottom right - is that hidden staging location? This has potential for sure. I appreciate especially the addition of the industries and roads - it makes it easier for me to visualize. A bit frustrating to start to build then run into these kinds of issues, but better now than later. I need to make sure now I take my time to make sure the layout does what I need - it looks like it does. I definitely like it better than my plan with the kind of Y junction. I appreciate your work on this!!!! :)
Hi aralai
In another thread I confessed I did never get really into scenery building, because I changed my layout to often. Only the blob at the right and the peninsula were done.
And yes, south of the green line is staging.
I don't want to get stuck in that way - never satisfied with the layout, but on the other hand don't want to be unhappy with it but it is built. I'm sure you understand what I mean. It's real close to what I want now. I am such a visual person, I think I needed to build and run trains before I really knew what was good and what was bad. Now - hopefully my track is not too stuck down where I will need to lift it :)
Where you have the word 'team' on the plan - what is that supposed to be?
in the past a wagon, drawn by a team of horses, could bring their cargo to the railroad by pulling the wagon aside a waiting freight car. Today we would call it a (small) transloading facility and trucks are used.
Perfect Paul - Thanks!
Aralai,
I think it was a good call to take a step back, and also a good call to eliminate the double track main.
I really like Paul's proposal. One suggestion I have is to extend the buildings hiding the two staging tracks on the right all the way up to the turnout, such that a person on the inside never sees two tracks there - they only see a single track coming out from behind the buildings. This gives you the ability to hide longer trains in staging, as well as represent your area better (which is single-tracked IIRC). I suppose you could leave it as-is and say that that turnout is the end of a passing siding that extends off-layout, and any trains visible there are holding for meets, etc. Your call.
Having said that, one thing to consider is access for those staging tracks, especially if you decide to hide more of them. IIRC they are not accessible from the bottom, as a furnace and hot water heater block that area. I don't think it necessarily torpedoes the idea, you'll just need to be aware of the restrictions for having staging there and come up with a plan for maintenance and access - like a removable view block or something.
Thanks Dave. I pulled out all my old plans, and the funny thing is the new plan is close to a plan I had, but ended up changing! On that plan, the hidden staging DID go round the curve.
I was thinking that either a removable view block for the staging, or to be able to have access from above, but visibility from eye level would not show the tracks? Ex: Standing on a stool to pull out any derailments.
Agreed that it is a good idea to stop and evaluate at this point. I'm glad I did, and appreciate the ideas. Making changes now will also allow me to widen the radius on a few curves I have that are a bit tight right now.
hi Aralai,
my opinion only, the green line was meant to be a scenic devider in genaral. I do not fancy hidden tracks at all; so TMHO just of row of houses and/or industrial plants would be sufficient. Call it concieled staging, if you like.
As with all plans you have to tinker. The part I am not so happy with, is just at the right of the drop-in, where the green line starts. A roadcrossing on that spot and the industry as a view block would be my choice now. Depends also on the heigth of your pike and your length of course.
Have fun, keep smilingPaul
Thanks Paul - Yes, I think a row of industrial buildings would make a good block for hidden staging, and like the idea of the road crossing there.
Update - my railway has been in state of suspension since before Christmas. My Dad got ill and passed away on Jan 6th and my wife got in a major car accident on Jan 12th, and is off work recovering slowly.
I spent some time reviewing the track plans, and am ready to re-do the layout. I tore up most of my track on the weekend and will be re-laying it according to the new layout.
For newbies - a lesson learned by me - my first mistake was to put my track too close to the walls to get the longest possible track, and also to run a double track all around. My lesson learned is to pull the track away from the wall at least far enough for background buildings and in some places more space. For hidden staging, being close to the wall is ok. Conversely, I want some space at the front of the layout in most cases too, so I guess my rule of thumb is to run tracks more towards the middle - or at least a few inches from the wall or front.
I have also added some space for a Town Square - I realize it make for a bit of a reach across the layout, but felt it needed the space for that element. I now have two areas for hidden staging and my mainline now runs basically two full circuits of the layout before repeating.
Over the next month or two, I will be carefully laying track and testing.
Aralai2. The double tracks don't give me the long-run illusion I was looking for.
While a 2-track main won't necessarily look like a longer run, when designed in conjunction with crossover turnouts, it does provide possibilities for running two trains plus bidirectional operations. For example, with a 2-track main beside a yard, one train consist can be continually run (on the outer main) while another train consist is switched in/out of the yard -- so, a minimum of a runaround (around) the yard can prevent yard/mainline congestion even if only a 1-track mainline is employed.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
HHPATH56One problem with your last layout proposal is that to get to, or get from the left yard, a train has to go all the way around to the lower right side. Why don't you make a cross-over extension from the top cross-over to the inner track, leading to the yard. This would allow a train traveling clockwise to back into the yard and then escape to either loop. Bob Hahn
I did not put elevations on, but the yard is lower, so a crossover extension there would be too steep an elevation. The other reason the layout is that way is that I planned that the trip to the yard would be long to create a greater sense of distance. I am hoping to use scenery to make the illusion better. Not sure I am explaining clearly, but the idea is that the main line, although curved around in almost a double circle is in prototype more of a straight line, so there could be no 'short-cut' to the yard.
I don't want to be a spoil sport, but I don't think you will solve much of your first concern, the illusion of distance, by simply separating a double track mainline into two mainlines that are about 8 or 9 inches apart, like you have now. You might achieve the illusion of distance by having one mainline, with as many (few) spurs as you need to model your prototype, and then simply running numerous laps around same the loop until the train reaches its destination.
The illusion of distance could be achieved by the TIME it takes the train to run the number of laps it needs to reach its destination. Visually, you will have to use your imagination. Effectively separating scenes on a small layout is tough to do unless you change the scenery theme from the wide open spaces you have now to something that has hills and tunnels and possibly hiding some mainline behind backdrops, IMO.
- Douglas
Good points Bob. I'll take a closer look at options for a crossover. I plan to use both background industries to hide the hidden staging (although that is mostly at the bottom right) and some kind of removable mountain / hillside for the staging at the left and top left.
There is also the ability to do a runaround with the loco in the hidden staging in order to run a freight forward into the yard, then do a runaround in the yard to reverse direction. It's probably not prototypical, but in real life the yard would be double ended.
DoughlessAralai, Effectively separating scenes on a small layout is tough to do unless you change the scenery theme from the wide open spaces you have now to something that has hills and tunnels and possibly hiding some mainline behind backdrops, IMO.
Effectively separating scenes on a small layout is tough to do unless you change the scenery theme from the wide open spaces you have now to something that has hills and tunnels and possibly hiding some mainline behind backdrops, IMO.
Hiding some of the mainline behind view blocks is something I had thought about. I'm sure there are certain ways to break things up a bit using scenery.
Just some ideas. The plan is good, I have drawn some tracks closer to each other. So you have more free space between the two lines.
And I did not like the east staging that close to the west staging. The junction to east station is now a bit further down the road.
Sorry to hear about your wife and your father; my condolences.
Thanks Paul. Your idea would work, and I like the junction / grade separation and tunnel better. You are able to visualize ideas and put them to paper better than I can, and I appreciate it when you do, since I am a visual person, and sometimes have trouble getting the idea just from verbal descriptions, but easily see it when it is in a layout design picture.
Bob, Here is an updated version of my layout (latest with changes), you can see the room dimensions, door etc:
I have a masonite backdrop all around, screwed to studs on three sides and mounted to the layout on the bottom hidden staging side. For now it is just painted sky color - there are some photos in my blog (link below).
I was not too happy with my plan for two reasons. I wanted to separate the scenes a bit more and I envisioned grade problems. So the entrance to the east staging is even further to the east. Still the staging-track is 5 feet long.
Second I moved the second station more to the upper wall and changed the spurs; it made the station more compact.
The curve, you've drawn out of the yard, was very tight.
I usually plan scenery in from a early stage; it is difficult to do afterwards.
I don't know - I really like the grade separation and the track coming on the diagonal under the other track. The grade should not be a problem, I have a lot of space to make it a reasonable grade - both going into the hidden staging and also for the track coming across the river. The curve is tight, but not too bad for my freight service which is all shorter cars. I think I'll do a mock up and see how it will look and if it will work. I have a picture in my mind of how it could look and I like it.
I did switch the spur at the top to go the other way.
Update on progress this month:
I ripped up the old track that needed to be re-laid and I'm really happy with the new grade coming out of the yard and around past the Town Square to the duck-under. I used foamboard and just carved the incline - pretty tedious and messy, but patience paid off and the incline is nice and smooth, not like it used to be with a bad transition.
I also laid the track that runs from the yard track around to the Hidden Freight Staging and tested both the Freight and 85 foot GO Train Passenger cars and they manage the curve ok. The 85 footers are a bit tight, but they are the same on most of my curves. I like the look of the track going under the other track.
Next, I'm going to work on the bridge track across the river and the top and top-right corner track.
I'm also much happier with the layout and the space both in front and behind the tracks for scenery / buildings etc.
Thanks again to everyone who provided feedback.
Added some progress pics - also went to a Model Railway Show in Barrie yesterday and picked up the Micro Engineering viaduct for my layout to be my high bridge across the river.
Wow, Can't believe it has been over 9 months since my last update!
After a long time, I am making some progress. It is actually good that I did not rush this layout. Normally I am pretty impatient and would have plugged ahead, then realized I had made some mistakes. As I get older, I am either getting lazier or more patient. By waiting and playing around with the trains, I have managed to find several things that needed adjusted. I had to move the run-around track in the freight yard as the run-around was too short to move the locomotive from the one end of the freight train to the other. Now I can pull a freight into the yard, uncouple, and run around to the rear of the train. The old runaround was where the caboose siding is now. The new one runs around the other side of the bridge abutment. See pics below. Bonus is I got a caboose siding!
I also did a slight realignment of the two yard tracks at the front. Ignore the awful job I did on the layout chart - the tracks are actually lined up nicely. I moved them to accommodate a new (well actually used) dual track engine shed purchased from the Toronto Christmas Train Show.
I finished getting the viaduct in place and the trains are running smoothly. I did cheat a bit as some of my curves are a bit tight for my Bombardier Bi-Level GO Train coaches - I changed the couplers on the middle coach to a slightly longer coupler to stop the accordions from binding on tight curves. It still looks ok and runs MUCH smoother.
I changed my mind about the river running the whole way from one end of the layout to the other. It was taking up too much real estate that I wanted to use for other things, so now the river flows under the double track truss bridge, and curves around then off the layout, and at the other end is a waterfall under the high viaduct and low yard bridge and off the layout. This will allow me to put in a suburban passenger GO station and a small farm.
I will be locating larger buildings (city) as a view block in the corner where the hidden passenger staging is.
The town will no probably no longer have a town square, but a couple of streets on a diagonal. The hidden freight staging will be behind background buildings. I put a fibreboard 'wall' in where the tunnel will be to ensure that if a train derails it will not fall off the track and hopefully be guided through. I am waiting to do some more work before I make final decisions on the sidings in town, as well as the section of real estate near the duck-under. I have thought about a small lake / campground, or industry, or a slummy section of town etc - I'd like it to be interesting.
Here is my latest updated layout. Now working on buildings and scenery. Any advice on building the view block in the corner would be appreciated. The idea is to give the illusion that the tracks continue straight after the bridge and that the tracks on the other side of the hidden staging are just sidings into the Auto Parts plant.
As you noted: John Armstrong made a very good observation:
Scenic blocks and tunnels make trains appear longer...a lot longer.
Looks like you off to a great start!
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I managed to order the Walthers Cornerstone Lakeville Warehousing kit from Amazon - since it is no longer produced, and it getting harder to find I figured I better grab it now. I'm going to kitbash it to use as my Auto Parts Plant covering my hidden staging.
I may end up using the Bud's Trucking Background kit as part of the kitbash, or use that on the other hidden staging.
I need to get more foam to level out things since I changed my mind so many times and carved out foam where it now needs to be more level. The joys of getting it right...