Paul:
I am worried about the amount of track vs. scenery.
Good point. It looks like Chris will need to use retaining walls to separate the vertical differences in the trackwork.
He could use the entire layout to model an industrial district in a large town, instead of each switching area being a different small town. The retaining walls would look more at home, as would the switcning areas being close to each other yet vertically different.
I think he could eliminate the fourth yard track and have enough yard storage and add more room for scenery to transition the the elevated area.
- Douglas
hi Chris and all the others
You are working on a great design. I also like the last elegant proposal. I am however a bit worried about the amount of track versus scenery. So some questions:
1)How do you want to place your layout in the room? Or which side is against a wall?
2)Do you consider hiding or conceiling part of the staging tracks (or the big interchange)?
3)The four track yard seems a bit big to me, storage could be done on cassettes as well.
4)Did you consider letting the low branch continue under the main till the edge of the table.(and add the casette at this point. Operationaly it could be another industrial zone and it would add some bridge traffic to the branch)
Go on with your great work. TMHO you are making an allready very good plan even better.Have funPaul
DoughlessIf you move the interchange tracks to the bottom of the layout and connect them with the mainline on the right hand side, and move the industry that's now in the SW corner to the NW corner to make room for the end of the interchange tracks, I think you'll get closer to where the group is suggesting you go. You may then also want to flip the angle of the mainline crossover that's near the yard.
If you move the interchange tracks to the bottom of the layout and connect them with the mainline on the right hand side, and move the industry that's now in the SW corner to the NW corner to make room for the end of the interchange tracks, I think you'll get closer to where the group is suggesting you go. You may then also want to flip the angle of the mainline crossover that's near the yard.
That's one elegant solution. And Chris' solution (using the runaround at the left side as two different places, depending on whether he is switching the interchange or the branch) is not a bad solution either.
Grin, Stien (err - Stein - I'm an engineer too ... ;-)
Chris,
Check out my railroad at: Buffalo and Southwestern
Photos at:Flicker account
YouTube:StellarMRR YouTube account
Ah, then everything makes sense.
Well, except for spelling my user name "stienj" instead of "steinjr". For some reason not known to me, a lot of Americans seem to have a tendency to use "ie" instead of "ei" (writing "Stien" instead of "Stein", or "frieght" instead of "freight"). Must be something about how you guys pronounce words or something. Oh well - just one of the minor mysteries of life :-)
Grin, Stein
I am mulling over how to "cut" the plan. When I was putting this together I was thinking the line drawing of the layout would look something like this:
Stienj Anyways, a couple of questions about your plan: - Whats with the apparent 6x10 squares for your 9x5 layout ?
Anyways, a couple of questions about your plan:
- Whats with the apparent 6x10 squares for your 9x5 layout ?
When I was working with the plan last night incorperating the changes I grabbed the 6x10 plan instead of the 5x9 plan by mistake. Expanding to the 6 x 10 was something I was messing around with last week. I don't have a space restriction now (other than I am trying to keep it manageable) and I figure why waste that last foot on the 8' long lumber I have.
Stienj - When switching the industries next to the right side of the center viewblock - have you allowed for some flat track along the branch mainline to leave cars on while picking up outbound cars from the industries or setting out inbound cars for the industries ?
- When switching the industries next to the right side of the center viewblock - have you allowed for some flat track along the branch mainline to leave cars on while picking up outbound cars from the industries or setting out inbound cars for the industries ?
In this plan I highlighted the grades:
Thanks,
Chris
stilson4283Flipped the yard to have everything going the same way: Chris
Flipping the yard was a good call.
What you have here is not totally what Mark meant with his description - he wanted to to put a yard of about three double ended tracks along the left side of your drawing (where the tracks from the interchange come in), and rotate the branch line 180 degrees counterclockwise (branching off from what is now the upper right hand corner of your layout and going counterclockwise around the central divider before ending up with the town on the right side of the center divider in your drawing.
But functionally, what you have here seems to be a reasonably decent solution.
Since the yard is further away from the interchange tracks than in Marks plan, I guess you get to decide how your track schematic is going to be - whether you mentally cut the outer loop mainline in the upper left hand corner or in the lower left hand corner.
Outer loop cut at lower left hand corner (compared with my original proposal and Mark's proposal - my plan going clockwise from yard, Marks and your plan counterclockwise from yard):
Outer loop cut at the upper left hand corner:
Schematically, Mark's proposal probably makes the most sense if you want to handler longer cuts of cars for the interchange without having to either back up quite a bit between yard and interchange, or to have a circular world (where you go yard - interchange - yard around the loop without reversing direction).
Nothing too horrible with either of those options, of course - and backing up the main for a mile or two (or just interchanging a few cars) could totally be defended from a prototype point of view.
Smile, Stein
steinjr Are you saying you would take a branch line off say around 4 o'clock, hook it around to the other side of the central viewblock (between the yard and the center viewblock) and then further around onto the bottom half of the layout, where you would have a town at the end of the line ?
Stein, you understand correctly.
Mark
I don't have any problems understand your description of your conceptual solution for the yard/interchange area:
markpierceThe interchange track is too small for the amount of traffic envisioned. Convert the team track to the interchange, extend it down the right side, and increase it to two tracks (one track for inbound traffic and one track for outbound.). I don't see the need for the relatively large, 3-track yard in the bottom part of the layout. It doesn't make much sense to locate it there either. I recommend using the tracks between what is now labeled the interchange and team track (and probably extend it to go along the left side of the layout) as the primary yard as that is the logical beginning of the modeled railroad. With the removal of the existing yard, there would be room to add a third track at the upper yard (all yard tracks double-ended), especially with the relocation of the branch described in the following paragraph. Where the interchange now exists, the engine house could be located.
The interchange track is too small for the amount of traffic envisioned. Convert the team track to the interchange, extend it down the right side, and increase it to two tracks (one track for inbound traffic and one track for outbound.). I don't see the need for the relatively large, 3-track yard in the bottom part of the layout. It doesn't make much sense to locate it there either. I recommend using the tracks between what is now labeled the interchange and team track (and probably extend it to go along the left side of the layout) as the primary yard as that is the logical beginning of the modeled railroad. With the removal of the existing yard, there would be room to add a third track at the upper yard (all yard tracks double-ended), especially with the relocation of the branch described in the following paragraph. Where the interchange now exists, the engine house could be located.
But this part is a little unclear to me:
markpierceThus, it makes sense to relocate the branch line so it leaves the main track in the lower right portion rather than the upper right, resulting in the end of branch on the lower rather than upper half of the layout.
Thus, it makes sense to relocate the branch line so it leaves the main track in the lower right portion rather than the upper right, resulting in the end of branch on the lower rather than upper half of the layout.
Are you saying you would take a branch line off say around 4 o'clock, hook it around to the other side of the central viewblock (between the yard and the center viewblock) and then further around onto the bottom half of the layout, where you would have a town at the end of the line ?
Smile,Stein
odaveBut depending on where the east/west break in the "world" is in terms of the schematic, (I was assuming that it was right there on the right-hand side of the loop), and how persnickety the layout owner wants to be, such coordination may not make sense within the context of the world. Just another decision/tradeoff in the layout design journey.
Yes, that was the assumption I made based on the original plan, too. Yard at one end, then through interchange town, past elevator to town B and back.
A schematic about like this:
Haven't had time to try to draw something based on Mark's idea yet - will have to wait until tomorrow or later - we are going to have some friends over tonight.
markpierceHeaven forbid that coordination of trains is sometimes required.
You're right, I didn't state that option explicitly - I figured it was a given.
But depending on where the east/west break in the "world" is in terms of the schematic, (I was assuming that it was right there on the right-hand side of the loop), and how persnickety Chris wants to be, such coordination may not make sense within the context of the world. Just another decision/tradeoff in the layout design journey.
Stein, the recommendations made were based on the presumption of a particular "operational theory": that of a shortline railroad. I see operations centered on traffic between the interchange and the branchline terminous. So, the oval (which I described as "main track") would be secondary between the proposed branchline junction and the proposed main yard on the upper-right part of the plan, That connection would allow one to "count miles" to extend the run to the branch terminus, test running, and just "laid back and watching the trains run." Thus, the right end of the suggested top yard would be primarily directed toward the proposed, right-hand-side interchange tracks. The oval "main track" connection at that end would appear as a spur.
markpierceThe interchange track is too small for the amount of traffic envisioned. Convert the team track to the interchange, extend it down the right side, and increase it to two tracks (one track for inbound traffic and one track for outbound.). I don't see the need for the relatively large, 3-track yard in the bottom part of the layout. It doesn't make much sense to locate it there either. I recommend using the tracks between what is now labeled the interchange and team track (and probably extend it to go along the left side of the layout) as the primary yard as that is the logical beginning of the modeled railroad. With the removal of the existing yard, there would be room to add a third track at the upper yard (all yard tracks double-ended), especially with the relocation of the branch described in the following paragraph. Where the interchange now exists, the engine house could be located. From the relocated interchange, the logical movement for outgoing trains would be counter-clockwise. Thus, it makes sense to relocate the branch line so it leaves the main track in the lower right portion rather than the upper right, resulting in the end of branch on the lower rather than upper half of the layout. Thus, trains wouldn't need to make a switchback move to enter the branch (or re-enter the recommended main yard) as a result of leaving the upper yard in a counter-clockwise direction. Some industries or scenery could be located where the engine house and 3-track yard are now located.
From the relocated interchange, the logical movement for outgoing trains would be counter-clockwise. Thus, it makes sense to relocate the branch line so it leaves the main track in the lower right portion rather than the upper right, resulting in the end of branch on the lower rather than upper half of the layout. Thus, trains wouldn't need to make a switchback move to enter the branch (or re-enter the recommended main yard) as a result of leaving the upper yard in a counter-clockwise direction.
Some industries or scenery could be located where the engine house and 3-track yard are now located.
Hmm - I haven't time to game it out right now, but it sounds like a cool layout idea. In particular I like the idea of a much expanded interchange and combining the interchange and the yard.
In defense of my little tweak on the OPs plan, though - normal direction of travel out from the yard would have been clockwise, so getting into the interchange or branch would not have been switchback moves.
And a fairly easy workaround for the short interchange track would have been a cassette at the end of the interchange track.
But still - your proposal sounds like a more interesting plan.
markpierceodave One other thing - an engine doing a runaround in the yard might interfere with another operator working the "Team Track & Interchange" town at the same time. I suppose this could be fixed by sliding the curved turnout on the right-hand main down a bit so there's at least one engine-length of clear track before the branch turnout. But then the yard siding would be shorter. Or you could adjust the traffic patterns such that this doesn't happen. Heaven forbid that coordination of trains is sometimes required. Weigh any benefit with possible negatives with the change. Mark
odave One other thing - an engine doing a runaround in the yard might interfere with another operator working the "Team Track & Interchange" town at the same time. I suppose this could be fixed by sliding the curved turnout on the right-hand main down a bit so there's at least one engine-length of clear track before the branch turnout. But then the yard siding would be shorter. Or you could adjust the traffic patterns such that this doesn't happen.
One other thing - an engine doing a runaround in the yard might interfere with another operator working the "Team Track & Interchange" town at the same time. I suppose this could be fixed by sliding the curved turnout on the right-hand main down a bit so there's at least one engine-length of clear track before the branch turnout. But then the yard siding would be shorter. Or you could adjust the traffic patterns such that this doesn't happen.
Heaven forbid that coordination of trains is sometimes required. Weigh any benefit with possible negatives with the change.
True - as old Robert A Heinlein formulated it - TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) - anything has both a cost and a benefit.
I did consider the costs of moving the curved turnout for the right end of the siding down cuts curve radius a bit.
Costs:
Siding length - a fairly insignificant cut in length - siding is already as long as can be used (or even longer) - about half the circumference of the outer loop.
Longest realistic train length - 7-8 cars or so - anything more cannot really sensibly be handled by either yard or branch line. But even after cutting down siding length, the siding could hold an engine, 15 40-foot cars and a caboose without fouling the main.
Btw - yard capacity at 75% full is about 15 cars, there is a total of 18 industry car spots (3 at interchange, 2 at team track, 6 at elevator, and 3+2+2 spots in the branch line town), and there aren't really much room for running long trains on this layout.
Curve radius: doesn't much matter for the siding if radius on the right end goes down from 21.5" to 20.5", minimum radius for the siding is still 20" on the yard lead end.
For the outermost loop, it takes minimum radius down from 22" (lower left hand corner) to 21" (new lower right hand corner) - still more than the 20" radius minimum for the yard, but will maybe cut down a little how big engines and cars you can sneak around on the outer loop.
Still 21" or 22" shouldn't be all that much difference - both are fairly sharp curves.
Benefits:Road engine moves in the yard no longer interferes with switching along the top part of the layout or with moves into the little branch line.
If the manual or electric control for throwing the turnout for the siding is thrown from the yard side of the layout, then it helps (a little) in preserving the illusion that the yard is one place, and interchange town (+ branch line town) is somewhere else.
Evaluation:
I'd say that on balance it is worth it to move the turnout for the siding down a little.
odaveOne other thing - an engine doing a runaround in the yard might interfere with another operator working the "Team Track & Interchange" town at the same time. I suppose this could be fixed by sliding the curved turnout on the right-hand main down a bit so there's at least one engine-length of clear track before the branch turnout. But then the yard siding would be shorter. Or you could adjust the traffic patterns such that this doesn't happen. Decisions, decisions
Decisions, decisions
LOL - you got that right!
Something like this ?
Engine used in the drawing is an RS3, turnouts are Peco code 75 - curved rights and lefts, plus plain medium rights and lefts.
steinjr Yard - you might perhaps want to add an extra crossover, to run around short cuts of cars. Then again - how often do you need to run around a short cut cars in your yard ?
Good point.
steinjr You might need to put a road engine on the tail end of a cut of cars (ie away from the yard ladder) just prior to departure from the yard, but that can be done by running a road engine from the engine house up the main and backing it down the long double ended siding to grab the outbound cut of cars.
odaveChris: Stein's plan opens things up nicely and there's still plenty of action. I have a couple of thoughts on it. * The diagonal yard tracks are a good compromise. One of the tradeoffs is less separation between the yard scene and the elevator scene, which I think are two different towns in your schematic. You did mention some grades early in the thread - would the elevator scene be a bit higher than the yard? That could provide some separation. I'm not sure how you rate the importance of scene separation on this layout, though, so it may not be an issue. * You may want to indicate the different heights in different areas to help figure the grades, where embankments and retaining walls will need to go (and provide space for them), etc. * I go back and forth on the need for a crossover on the bottom by the yard. Stein took it out, but if you were to put it in and move it to the 5' or 6' mark, it would allow the yard crew to runaround shorter cuts of cars without having to go all the way up to the swtich by the team track. I guess it depends on the train lengths vs saving some time on the runaround move. Figuring out where crossovers should go has been a challenge for me - I have one in my plan that I've been moving around, removing, then putting back in, then removing again for about a year now That's it for now,
Chris:
Stein's plan opens things up nicely and there's still plenty of action. I have a couple of thoughts on it.
* The diagonal yard tracks are a good compromise. One of the tradeoffs is less separation between the yard scene and the elevator scene, which I think are two different towns in your schematic. You did mention some grades early in the thread - would the elevator scene be a bit higher than the yard? That could provide some separation. I'm not sure how you rate the importance of scene separation on this layout, though, so it may not be an issue.
* You may want to indicate the different heights in different areas to help figure the grades, where embankments and retaining walls will need to go (and provide space for them), etc.
* I go back and forth on the need for a crossover on the bottom by the yard. Stein took it out, but if you were to put it in and move it to the 5' or 6' mark, it would allow the yard crew to runaround shorter cuts of cars without having to go all the way up to the swtich by the team track. I guess it depends on the train lengths vs saving some time on the runaround move. Figuring out where crossovers should go has been a challenge for me - I have one in my plan that I've been moving around, removing, then putting back in, then removing again for about a year now
That's it for now,
Dave, as usual, make some good points.
Some thoughts from me on these points and a few others:
Elevator scene - should have room for loaded cars on one side of the covered unloading chute and room for equally many unloaded cars on the other side of the unloading chute, so you can push three loaded cars all the way in (so loaded car no 3 is in the covered unloading area, while loaded car no 1 and 2 is beyond that point).
The morning turn coming out to switch the city on the other side stop on the main by the elevator, leave the cars bound for the town on the other side there, and then pull the string of cars on the unloading track forward, so car 2 and 3 is unloaded. Then you pull the three just unloaded cars, and spot the cut of three loaded cars from the holding track onto the unloading track, while leaving the unloaded cars on the holding track.
The second branch line turn of the day brings out new loaded cars for the elevator from the yard, pulls all the unloaded cars (from both the unloading and holding track) and spots new cars there.
Or some such thing - you can get a lot of interesting switching moves from a single industry with two simple tracks like that.
You don't need a runaround for the elevator - when you have picked up cars from the elevator, you either move forward to the next town (on the other side of the layout), and run around your cars there, or you back down the branchline to the runaround on the main on the other side, and run around the cars there.
Town scene: Adding a road that crosses the tracks complicates switching - you try to avoid blocking the road, but sometime you will just have to block the road for a little while while switching. You can use the start of the industry lead to the topmost industry on the top side as temporary car storage while switching.
Yard - you might perhaps want to add an extra crossover, to run around short cuts of cars. Then again - how often do you need to run around a short cut cars in your yard ? You don't need to run the switcher around to get a given car towards the end of a track - you just pull the entire track and pushes the rearmost car onto another track than the rest of the cut.
You might need to put a road engine on the tail end of a cut of cars (ie away from the yard ladder) just prior to departure from the yard, but that can be done by running a road engine from the engine house up the main and backing it down the long double ended siding to grab the outbound cut of cars.
Vertical variation yard/elevator:
You can let the branch rise from the curved crossover in the upper right hand corner to where the branch line is even with the elevator tracks - getting a 1" rise is a not too horrible (even for an 18" radius curve) 2.3% rise.
If you hold the branch main flat where it is parallell with the elevator tracks, you can use that part for holding six cars while you are working the elevator. And then it is a gentle 1.6% drop from the left end of the switch into the elevator main around the curve on the left side of the track and to the start of the first turnout in the town on the other side of the center divider.
stilson4283 So I haven't had an update in a while and I wanted to share where I was at. Below is the latest version of the plan:
Hi Chris --
Basic plan concept is certainly workable on a 5x9 table, but I agree that I would weed out quite a few tracks on the yard half of the layout - both for the yard and for the industries on that side.
I played around with your basic plan for a while this morning - here is a sketch some possible changes and some possible ways to fit in scenery etc. Since my favorite era is the 1950s and favorite location is the US Midwest, my scenery and industry suggestions has a midwestern flavor - can obviously be changed to whatever you like:
Some considerations:
- I figured a rural RR line with a very moderate amount of traffic - a maximum of two trains being running at any time - I figured a maximum train length of about eight 40-foot cars plus a smallish engine, plus maybe a caboose - I figured that you would want an interchange track and a team track, since those are universal industries (ie they take any kind of car) - I dropped several runarounds - you now have one by the yard and one at the end of the branch
Ooops - have to get ready for work. Later.
stilson4283So I haven't had an update in a while and I wanted to share where I was at. Below is the latest version of the plan:
stilson4283 Here is the latest and greatest plan: