thatboy37well times have been good as i have finished studding up my basement an on to the rewiring of lights and receptacles. which i am almost finished doing. have rewired the the lights for the hallway, weightroom, movie room. also have wired new receptacles for the movie room, hallway, and weightroom. i have run lines for the train room lights and receptacles. they both will have their on breaker. i have 4 receptacles for the trainroom and i have a question. should i go ahead and run all 4 receptacles on one 15 amp breaker or split them into 2 and have 2 run on one 15 amp breaker and the other 2 run off the other 15 amp breaker. the reasoning behind this is i have 4 of the nce 5 amp power supplies and i dont want them to be drawing to much power from anyone of the 2 breakers and trip them all the time or should i just go ahead and get a 20 amp breaker and hook up all 4 receptacles to it and have the power supplies to just that 1 breaker . kind of stuck and dont know what to do from this point. reason im asking is i want to be safe and not have the house go up in flames. i know i have alot of power but i want to have enough for when i have running sessions for the club im in. i dont want one of the problems to be that i dont have enough power. so now the problem is should i use 1 20 amp breaker or split it all up and use 2 15 amp breakers. the lights in the trainroom will be hooked up to a dimmer. that way i can simulate the night and day time at anytime of the day. also is there anything else anybody would recommend me doing before i start drywalling and sheetrocking.
well times have been good as i have finished studding up my basement an on to the rewiring of lights and receptacles. which i am almost finished doing. have rewired the the lights for the hallway, weightroom, movie room. also have wired new receptacles for the movie room, hallway, and weightroom.
i have run lines for the train room lights and receptacles. they both will have their on breaker. i have 4 receptacles for the trainroom and i have a question. should i go ahead and run all 4 receptacles on one 15 amp breaker or split them into 2 and have 2 run on one 15 amp breaker and the other 2 run off the other 15 amp breaker. the reasoning behind this is i have 4 of the nce 5 amp power supplies and i dont want them to be drawing to much power from anyone of the 2 breakers and trip them all the time
or should i just go ahead and get a 20 amp breaker and hook up all 4 receptacles to it and have the power supplies to just that 1 breaker . kind of stuck and dont know what to do from this point. reason im asking is i want to be safe and not have the house go up in flames. i know i have alot of power but i want to have enough for when i have running sessions for the club im in. i dont want one of the problems to be that i dont have enough power. so now the problem is should i use 1 20 amp breaker or split it all up and use 2 15 amp breakers.
the lights in the trainroom will be hooked up to a dimmer. that way i can simulate the night and day time at anytime of the day.
also is there anything else anybody would recommend me doing before i start drywalling and sheetrocking.
has anyone one the forum used sheetrock for anything on their layout. just wondering i have alot left over and would like some ideas for using it before i throw it all away.
thanks
Hi,
first off I would suggest you get someone that is a qualified electrician to do your wiring and also get it inspected. Trust me it is worth it.
Being an electrician in Canada I can only tell you what the canadian code rules are and how I would go about it.
#14 awg conductor has a maximum current carrying capacity of 15 amps. So the maximum size of breaker that is allowed in the panel to protect the wire is 15 amps. This breaker can only carry a maximum current of 12 amps. Being that you are wiring receptacles I asume that they are 120 volt. So the maximum wattage allowed on this circuit is 12amp*120volt = 1440 watt. Please remember that this is the maximum save operating load allowed on the circuit. Each receptacle or light fixture when installed in a house is calculated at a theoretical load of 1 amp. So you are allowed 12 devices on a circuit. I have wired up my own house and trust me I cut the number of devices in half on my circuits. I would much rather be safe.
If you have a number of 5 amp power supplies I assume that their output is 5 amp at 12 volt. Check the wattage that the manufacturer wrote on the supplies. It will tell you how many amps it draws if you divide that number by 120 volt. I would not go above a potential 1000 watt load on a designated receptacle circuit.
Also in order to cut down on voltage surges or spikes which occur when a motor starts up - ie dehumidifier I would have as you mentioned two designated receptacle circuits for my layout. Also I would consider running another circuit for a dehumidifier or other potential heavy current appliance, and since we are on the subject of wiring: Why not install two horse power rated motor disconnect switch next to your light switches. That way when you turn off the lights you can also turn off the two receptacle curcuits that feed your layout. That way you can be totally sure that all the power is cut to the cirucuit that powers your layout.
Bottom line is that if you are not sure about electricity, DO NOT TOUCH IT!!!!!!!!! Get a professional to do the wiring and get it inspected. Yes it might cost you a little more now but if you even just reverse the power and neutral on a receptacle it can cause a lot of damage to your electronic equipment. The handyman books that one can pick up at the book stores are good but there are a lot of aspects to the trade that can be easily left out when one is not in the trade.
So I hope this helps and if you have any more questions feel free to ask. If you are not sure let someone that is licensed do the work.
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
its taking a little longer to finish as the help who offered to help has stopped and i have been a one man show since then. he stopped halfway through the studding of a 1000sq ft basement. i think i have done a really good job since that sad day but finished sheet rocking the basement thursday. wifes birthday friday so no work was done and today taped and put first coat of plaster on walls. will sand and apply another coat tomorrow. its starting to look like a basement now. all of memory on camera is full so no pics this time. i can see the room full of trains running and gatherings of friends just having plain old fun. i will take your advice on getting the electrician to come and hook up the wiring. right now i wired all the receptacals together in the trainroom to one breaker and the same for the movie room and weightroom. also i rewired some lights that were already hooked up and and decreased the amount of lights that were already on that circuit 6 to 4. wired and ran wires for the lights in the trainroom and it will also have its own breaker and be own a dimmer. also did the same for the movie room lights. also i get a little more real estate for the layout with an addition of a 1'x4' section added at the foot of the stairs as you come down. she also asking me not to cut a hole and run a line through the stairs and have and some staging in the storage under the stairs. but its just wishful thinking for now. as i just want to get finished with the basement first. it will all be worth the wait in the long run.
Hello again,
It is certainly good to hear that you will get in a qualified electrician. A couple of years ago I was finishing a office rewire contract. The inspector that came for the final inspection knew me quite well and had inspected a number of other projects on which I was a foreman on. This made him very relaxed and talkative. He said that a few weeks prior to coming to my project he had done a new house inspection. He passed the house. On the monday of that week that he was talking to me he was called back for a fire investigation on that same new house he just passed a few weeks ago. He said that half the house had burned to the ground by the time the blaze was put out. He noticed that all teh receptacles and switches had been changed to another style. He asked if the homeowner had changed the receptacles, the home owner said yes and that it was very simple of a task to perform. The only problem was that he made a mistake in the kitchen countertop receptacles. This caused the breaker upon energization to weld shut rather then trip open. This fault caused enormous amounts of electricity to flow causing the insulation to melt from the wire resulting in the fire.
It was a simple mistake that the home owner had done, trying to save a few dollars that resulted in a huge mess. I hope that this true story re-inforces how important it is to have someone qualifed working on electrical installations.
Hope it helps
yes that is one of my biggest worries of me doing the wiring and coming home one day to a house burned to the ground. i had a professional electrician come from a insured company and he told me all the supplies that i needed to get and he wrote them down for me. what a big help he was with just that little info. i went to the store bought all the supplies and said to myself what do i do from here. he also told me how to wire all the receptacles and the whole nine. he explained i would need a sub panal i mounted and ran the wires to it that he said run. now im just waiting to get someone in here that want charge me 600 dollars just to connect the wires and inspect it. im no electrician but does it realy cost that much just to connect 8 wires to 8 new breakers and say it is ok. i ran all the wires and connected them to receptacles and lights. all the hard work was done by me but 600 dollars seems a little steep just to connect a few wires to breakers and say i passed the inspection. but in reality i dont want a house fire so i might just have to go ahead and fork out the money.
thatboy37yes that is one of my biggest worries of me doing the wiring and coming home one day to a house burned to the ground. i had a professional electrician come from a insured company and he told me all the supplies that i needed to get and he wrote them down for me. what a big help he was with just that little info. i went to the store bought all the supplies and said to myself what do i do from here. he also told me how to wire all the receptacles and the whole nine. he explained i would need a sub panal i mounted and ran the wires to it that he said run. now im just waiting to get someone in here that want charge me 600 dollars just to connect the wires and inspect it. im no electrician but does it realy cost that much just to connect 8 wires to 8 new breakers and say it is ok. i ran all the wires and connected them to receptacles and lights. all the hard work was done by me but 600 dollars seems a little steep just to connect a few wires to breakers and say i passed the inspection. but in reality i dont want a house fire so i might just have to go ahead and fork out the money.
Good gravy, I've built maybe a dozen layotus, some room-sized, and I have never needed to supplement the house wiring to do so.
A model railroad just doesn't need that much power.
I hear what you are saying with regards to cost. No it does not and should not cost 600 Dollars to connect the wire to breakers in the panel. Then again please keep in mind that i do not know what they charge in your area. At the same time the electrician takes on the liability if something goes wrong.
Put it this way in my area the 600 Dollars would cover the labour for the installation of the devices and wiring. This begs to ask the question: How reputable is this individual? That is something only you can judge. For anybody else reading this please understand I believe in earning a good dollar for a good days work, but 600 dollars would cover the wages and benefits for one and half to two days depending on the companies charge out rate. Mind you inspection is another can of worms.
Hope it helps.
MINATURE: wasn't that the name of that bull-headed man from Greek Mythology who resided in the Labyrinth and was slain by Theseus?
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Midnight Railroader thatboy37yes that is one of my biggest worries of me doing the wiring and coming home one day to a house burned to the ground. i had a professional electrician come from a insured company and he told me all the supplies that i needed to get and he wrote them down for me. what a big help he was with just that little info. i went to the store bought all the supplies and said to myself what do i do from here. he also told me how to wire all the receptacles and the whole nine. he explained i would need a sub panal i mounted and ran the wires to it that he said run. now im just waiting to get someone in here that want charge me 600 dollars just to connect the wires and inspect it. im no electrician but does it realy cost that much just to connect 8 wires to 8 new breakers and say it is ok. i ran all the wires and connected them to receptacles and lights. all the hard work was done by me but 600 dollars seems a little steep just to connect a few wires to breakers and say i passed the inspection. but in reality i dont want a house fire so i might just have to go ahead and fork out the money. Good gravy, I've built maybe a dozen layotus, some room-sized, and I have never needed to supplement the house wiring to do so. A model railroad just doesn't need that much power.
well i see what you are saying about it doesnt need that much power but from the certified electrician that came and gave the estimate and by the way i want things wired he said it would be better if i put the trainroom lights on its on breaker. the train layout power on its own breaker, the movieroom lights on its on breaker, the tv radio dvd players all on the same breaker but they to will have their own breaker. from what he was telling me i would need to buy a breaker for each of these but i would also have to buy a whole new sub panel because i was out of spaces to put new breakers in the power panel that is already in place. plus i want to make sure i have enough power for the reailroad that way i dont have to worry about cutting on the lights in another part of the house and the trainlayout is sharing the same breaker then the power has to be shared. if you get what im saying you turn up the power of the trains and the lights in the other room go dim. i dont want that to happen. plus as i stated earlier i have 4 of the 5 amp power supplies from nce to power my whole layout. im going to have a separate switch to turn on the lights to the room and one to turn the power for the layout as was stated earlier by someone else. so i know that when i leave out of the room the power is off.
Hi thatboy37,
I did not wish to quote the above statement for it would get really big.
Due to the fact that I am not familiar with the US Electrical Codes and also do not know what kind of lights or how many lights you will install in your basement I can not comment on your electricians circuit designations. As far as putting an entertainment system on its own circuit, that is a very wise move. It eliminates surge voltages to a good degree. Mind you if you hooked up a welder to your house panel and cranked the welders output up then all the branch circuits could easily see a voltage surge. But in general it is a very wise move to put electronic devices on their own circuit.
As for power supplies, I checked the NCE web site and found they had a 5 amp power supply called a PB105 and a 10 amp power supply called a PB110. Just to put your mind at ease let us talk about the 10 amp power supply. According to the PDF file from the manufacturer the PB110 requires a max total of 250 VA. VA is another term for Watts (for the most part without getting too technical) which is the energy consumed or required. This energy does not change, what changes are the current and voltage which when multiplied always come up to the same VA value. If you read the pdf file http://www.ncedcc.com/images/stories/manuals/pb110.pdf you will read that this power supply can require up to 12 amps at the low voltage value of 16 to 22 volts AC. This creates a total power draw of up to 250 VA.
As mentioned above VA is the energy consumed which in this case is up to 250 VA. If the supply voltage from the receptacle is 120 volt then the current draw from the receptacle is only
250VA/120volt=2.083 amps.
So if you had 4 power supplies made by NCE designated as PB110 you would draw 2.083amp*4=8.3amp which can be handled by a single 15 amp circuit. Since you are using the PB105 you can cut the power draw on your designated circuit in half, ie 4.15 amp. This gives you plenty of extra available power for other functions such as powering lights for your model houses on your layout.
So to sum it up, it is a good idea to have a designated circuit for your model railroad but there should be no worries about having 4 PB105 power supplies on that circuit.
As for breakers, each circuit requires its own breaker, otherwise it is not a circuit. Also the pony panel would be required if you do not have enough available space in your current panel. This is unfortunate but required to prevent issues down the road. Doubling up ciruits on breakers causes only trouble.
I hope this helps.
da_kraut Hi thatboy37, I did not wish to quote the above statement for it would get really big. Due to the fact that I am not familiar with the US Electrical Codes and also do not know what kind of lights or how many lights you will install in your basement I can not comment on your electricians circuit designations. As far as putting an entertainment system on its own circuit, that is a very wise move. It eliminates surge voltages to a good degree. Mind you if you hooked up a welder to your house panel and cranked the welders output up then all the branch circuits could easily see a voltage surge. But in general it is a very wise move to put electronic devices on their own circuit. As for power supplies, I checked the NCE web site and found they had a 5 amp power supply called a PB105 and a 10 amp power supply called a PB110. Just to put your mind at ease let us talk about the 10 amp power supply. According to the PDF file from the manufacturer the PB110 requires a max total of 250 VA. VA is another term for Watts (for the most part without getting too technical) which is the energy consumed or required. This energy does not change, what changes are the current and voltage which when multiplied always come up to the same VA value. If you read the pdf file http://www.ncedcc.com/images/stories/manuals/pb110.pdf you will read that this power supply can require up to 12 amps at the low voltage value of 16 to 22 volts AC. This creates a total power draw of up to 250 VA. As mentioned above VA is the energy consumed which in this case is up to 250 VA. If the supply voltage from the receptacle is 120 volt then the current draw from the receptacle is only 250VA/120volt=2.083 amps. So if you had 4 power supplies made by NCE designated as PB110 you would draw 2.083amp*4=8.3amp which can be handled by a single 15 amp circuit. Since you are using the PB105 you can cut the power draw on your designated circuit in half, ie 4.15 amp. This gives you plenty of extra available power for other functions such as powering lights for your model houses on your layout. So to sum it up, it is a good idea to have a designated circuit for your model railroad but there should be no worries about having 4 PB105 power supplies on that circuit. As for breakers, each circuit requires its own breaker, otherwise it is not a circuit. Also the pony panel would be required if you do not have enough available space in your current panel. This is unfortunate but required to prevent issues down the road. Doubling up ciruits on breakers causes only trouble. I hope this helps. Frank
thanks for the help and info you and everyone else has provided to and for me. im waiting on the electric companies to call me back. also put on the second coat of plaster today. i can honestly say it is starting to look like a basement. i saved alot of money just by doing it all myself. the cheapest quote i have gotten to do my basement before i deceide to do it myself was 14000 and i have almost remodeled my whole basement for less than 2000. now thats a huge savings right there and that much more for me to have and spend on my train room.
this sanding of the wall is one real pain in the if you know what i mean. but i can see the craftsmanship in the work once you are done. almost finished sanding the last coat and its really turning out to look like a basement.
also i have 5 locomotives for sale. trying to get rid of them because i have kinda of narrowed my choice to the main roadname on my layout will be norfolk southenr and these five dont fit the scheme. if interested please private message or email me at thatboy37@hotmail.com.
well here are some pictures of the basement with the drywall in place and the plaster applied for the last coat. i have actually started sanding the walls but didnt get finished. i was working hard at sanding for like 2 and half hours straight. then looked up and seen how much i have to sand i said enough for the day i will continue tomorrow. i felt like i was halfway thru but in reallity i was only 20% done. why does your mind play tricks on you like that. anyways here are the pictures. now that i have went and bought a memory card i can take pictures and update regular on a day to day basis if any work is done. sorry for the gap in the picture taking as stated didnt have memory card to take pictures of progress up until now. i just forgot to get a card everytime i went to walmart. hope you enjoy and like the work i have done thus far.
I kind of went the extra mile. I used all 20 AMP breakers, 12-2 wiring, 20 amp switches and outlet receptacles. My outlets are on two switched circuits to kill power when needed. Lights are on three switched circuits with dimmers. I have five dedicated 20 AMP circuits to the room alone. It is 14x30. I used recessed can lighting. Room is also wired for sound and sattelite.
i have 3 walls left in the movie room to finish sanding and im done with that part of the basement. then on to painting
Now how is that possible, even a miswired GFI should not have a problem. Only way I could see something of this nature happening is if the original wiring was done wrong and there was a problem with the ground. Sounds more like the guy had alluminum wiring in which case that is a fire waiting to happen even when done right.
rrebellNow how is that possible, even a miswired GFI should not have a problem. Only way I could see something of this nature happening is if the original wiring was done wrong and there was a problem with the ground. Sounds more like the guy had alluminum wiring in which case that is a fire waiting to happen even when done right.
I believe you are referring to one of my earlier posts. At the time all that was required were split receptacles. The home owner exchanged the split receptacle that was properly installed by the contractor for one of a different style. The home owner did not remove the tab which shorted out the two phases. Unfortunately the breaker fused shut under the inrush current and the main breaker held as well. This huge inrush of current caused the insulation from the wire to melt causing the fire.
Thanks, you see here in the states ever since at least the 70's and before probably you need to limit each outlet box to one circuit, 220 is a separte outlet box and you do any spliting at the main or sub box. Have only worked in the States but I have seen some weird stuff posted over the years.
rrebellThanks, you see here in the states ever since at least the 70's and before probably you need to limit each outlet box to one circuit, 220 is a separte outlet box and you do any spliting at the main or sub box. Have only worked in the States but I have seen some weird stuff posted over the years.
yes it is so very true how things change from country to country and throughout time. Now if you have a sink you need a receptacle within 90 cm of it, but within a meter of the sink the receptacle has to be GFI and have a 20 amp rating. The incident of the fire happened before this change came into effect.
One item that I find truly fascinating and weird is the power for electric locomotives in real life. Some run on some strange frequencies and the voltages are all over the map. This actually makes me glad that we have the NMRA standards that most manufacturers adhere to in the model world.
Take care
i finished doing the fine sanding and now its time to paint. will start possibly tomorrow. hopefully to be done painting the basement by the end of the weekend. i teased myself the other day and layed 3 pieces track to bring the one curve to almost complete. also my leads are long enough coming out of the yard that i can do a little switching to keep me motivated to get the basement finished. knowing it want be until at least a few more weeks before i can start laying track. but here are few pictures of the track i layed
hope you like and enjoy
well i finished priming all the walls today and will start painting tomorrow. all is in order to have all the painting of the walls done by the weekend. once done with that will cut and trim all base board pieces to fit then prime and paint them. im getting close to the finish line. i can smell victory. will call in elcetrician next week to get wiring inspected and hooked up properly.
before i paint my trainroom wall i have a question. im going to paint my backdrop for the layout on the wall. is there a recommended height to paint a skyblue strip around the maybe 2ft tall or should i go ahead and paint the hole top half of the wall above the layout skyblue. any suggestions welcome.
Hi Reggie,
just wanted to compliment you on your progress. This is a great thread and is inspirational to all of us. It has inspired me to get back to building the fourth level and working on the scenery.
Thanks
Go ahead and paint the whole wall whatever sky blue color you pick out - it will be more immersive, place you in the scene, to not be reminded that the sky ends by seeing its top edge. On my own layout, I've got lighting valances which cap my sky; they form a proscenium of sorts, a dark top with the light behind making the sky glow. This works because your eye is drawn to the brighter sky. So, if you don't paint blue all the way up, I'd suggest putting something dark or even black to hide the top. Worst thing you could do would be to paint blue up a few feet, then white above that, because the blue and white will both reflect about the same amount of light, and you'll always be aware of that line that divides dreamworld sky from realworld basement.
I'm eager to see another track plan, since we had that brainstorming session down at Tower A a while back - yours could be a very exciting layout! I know, you're having tons-of-fun paying electricians and sanding joint compound and all... You're probably done with the sanding, right? Too bad, I coulda told you how I did it at my sister's place (I finished her basement a few years ago). To avoid the dust of sanding, instead I used a wet sponge. It didn't get quite as perfectly flat as it might have with sanding, but it left no mess at all!
Reggie:
It has been awhile since I signed into this forum. Glad to see that you are still with this "train" stuff. Just want to wish you and your family continued success.
da_kraut Hi Reggie, just wanted to compliment you on your progress. This is a great thread and is inspirational to all of us. It has inspired me to get back to building the fourth level and working on the scenery. Thanks Frank
thanks for the compliments and i try to do what i can. if i am an inspiration to any thats great. i just try to do my best at everything and let others be the judge.
WP&P Go ahead and paint the whole wall whatever sky blue color you pick out - it will be more immersive, place you in the scene, to not be reminded that the sky ends by seeing its top edge. On my own layout, I've got lighting valances which cap my sky; they form a proscenium of sorts, a dark top with the light behind making the sky glow. This works because your eye is drawn to the brighter sky. So, if you don't paint blue all the way up, I'd suggest putting something dark or even black to hide the top. Worst thing you could do would be to paint blue up a few feet, then white above that, because the blue and white will both reflect about the same amount of light, and you'll always be aware of that line that divides dreamworld sky from realworld basement. I'm eager to see another track plan, since we had that brainstorming session down at Tower A a while back - yours could be a very exciting layout! I know, you're having tons-of-fun paying electricians and sanding joint compound and all... You're probably done with the sanding, right? Too bad, I coulda told you how I did it at my sister's place (I finished her basement a few years ago). To avoid the dust of sanding, instead I used a wet sponge. It didn't get quite as perfectly flat as it might have with sanding, but it left no mess at all!
yeah thats what i think im going to do is paint the whole top half of the wall skyblue. i can sort of visaulize what you are saying that it would make you feel as if you are part of the layout.
traindaddy1 Reggie: It has been awhile since I signed into this forum. Glad to see that you are still with this "train" stuff. Just want to wish you and your family continued success.
thanks for the wishes and the same to you and your family. now you know i cant leave the trains alone. even the smallest of trips/ideas i try to incorporate trains in there somehow. once its in you (train bug that is) its in you for good and it will slowly begin to get in the people you involve yourself with.
well didnt finish the whole basement this weekend but got finished with the trainroom painting and weightroom painting. i went with a beige color for the weightroom and the bottom half of the trainroom. and went with a sky blue color for the top half of the trainroom. hope you enjoy the pictures.
well here is a start the proposed benchwork and if you can see it the trackplan. i see things i want to do different to the benchwork everytime i look at this one. but this is the one that im leaning with. the only thing that i don't like about this is that i have to build in a liftout because it is not tall enough to duckunder. but it is high enough that is if sit in one of those office chairs let it down all the way and you can roll under it with a slight lean forward for me being i'm only 5'11" anybody taller might have to lean a little more. this idea here is what's making me not want to build in a liftout. that way i want have make a liftout for it. also cutting the chances of derailments with trains coming across it. you can see where i have the liftout by the tear in the paper along the long skinny part at the bottom of the benchwork. the long piece coming off the the end is where the entance to the basement coming down the stairs. so you will get a glimpse of it as you come down the stairs. the dark bold line is the divider for the center penisula, and the large squares are foot. so i think it comes out to be 34' x13 1/2' if you cant see the lines of the track plan let me know and i will try to take more pictures and get better shots. enough talking from me. here's the pictures.
well finally got the electricians to the house and got it wired for about $114 and i have the feeling of knowing that it is wired up correctly and not have to worry about fires starting unexpectedly. i have a few pictures of the room with the lights on in the room and a little of the the supplies and products i bought to get this show on the road. hope you enjoy.