This thread has seemingly turned into a sales pitch and away from the original discussion. It's time to move on. Thanks.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
hey i dont hink its a dc vs dcc question,the changes that are probably more effective on layout design are more the room available ,the dollars ,and the age of the owner,my point to point just completed is my 5th layout,each one driven by the three reasons above,i run dcc now cause thats what is in my roster,down here in australia some love fords some gm products i love cars,so just do it and enjoy ,,big trev.,
davidmbedardATLANTIC CENTRALdavidmbedard thought the idea of BBQs, drinking, fellowship, meeting new people from all over North America, operating with dozens of modelers, riding the prototype (steam) and camping for 3 days would appeal to some. And the best part? Tis free. ... FREE, I doubt that, maybe no admission charge I would have to get there and stay, and my wife, while she supports my interests, is not really interested in participating, and neither of us like crowds much... It is FREE. Why do I need to defend everything I say?..
ATLANTIC CENTRALdavidmbedard thought the idea of BBQs, drinking, fellowship, meeting new people from all over North America, operating with dozens of modelers, riding the prototype (steam) and camping for 3 days would appeal to some. And the best part? Tis free. ... FREE, I doubt that, maybe no admission charge I would have to get there and stay, and my wife, while she supports my interests, is not really interested in participating, and neither of us like crowds much...
davidmbedard thought the idea of BBQs, drinking, fellowship, meeting new people from all over North America, operating with dozens of modelers, riding the prototype (steam) and camping for 3 days would appeal to some. And the best part? Tis free.
FREE, I doubt that, maybe no admission charge I would have to get there and stay, and my wife, while she supports my interests, is not really interested in participating, and neither of us like crowds much...
It is FREE. Why do I need to defend everything I say?..
Bob,
Thank you for listening rationaly, some others are so "religious" about DCC its like there could be no other choice.
I know that what I am doing is not for everyone, and is in fact specialized. While DCC is very nice in many ways, it makes specific assumptions about operational goals (as does any system). So many in the hobby today accept or assume that the set of goals DCC provides for are the only or best set of goals.
Now I must tell you that the prices I gave you are based on buying everything new. At those quantities (over 100 pieces) you or I can buy the relay and base I use for $6. In fact, I have bought many of the needed relays surplus, mostly new old stock, for less than $1 for a relay and base. That makes the $1440 figure now $240.
I have over 100 locomotives, most fairly recent (last 10-15 years or so), but basicly none with decoders. And while decoders can be bought for $15, $20-$25 is a more relistic price for proper conversion of most of what I have. Not to mention that decoder prices this low are a recent developement. Even when I reconsidered DCC about two years ago prices where generally much higher. 100 locos X $20 = $2000 and we have not even touched the layout, 8 UT4R are another $800.
So the "core" of my system for my layout only costs about what I would have to invest in decoders.
One more comment or thought about this. So many make the "two wire" claim about DCC, but they have feeder drops every 3-6 feet. Maybe to someone not comfortable with electrical work hooking all those drops to the same bus seems easier. But to me, hooking up each drop is the same amount of work whether it goes to the one bus or to some other terminals like my relay panels. And again, if one wants signaling you still need all the same track sections (blocks), gaps, drops, etc.
I came very close to DCC several times, and to Computerized Block Control as well. But for my needs this is better. And while it won't appeal to most (and that's OK) it should be offered to those who might have similar needs/wants to mine.
David and others seem to think I have committed high treason or I'm just stupid beyond belief.
Thanks again for listening politely,
Sheldon
Thanks for the info. I wanted to get an idea what your system would cost just for comparison purposes.
Your system probably would provide an alternative to DCC for those that wanted to go a little beyong the basic DC system but did not want to do DCC.
BOB H - Clarion, PA
OK Bob, I'll bite,
As you admit there are some open ended questions, so I will assume ground throws and single track (which is actually a worst case for my system).
10 Aristo Craft Train Engineers - $150 ea x 10 = $1500
10 4 amp DC regulated power supplies - $25 ea x 10 = $250
12 towns need 20 relays each - 20 x $6 = $120 x 12 = $1440
Now before you compare it to DCC, you must include 10 radio throttles, none of this "Johnny brings his own to the operating session". A reasonable number of boosters, breakers, or whatever and receivers/base stations for those throttles depending on brand.
And, you must include a reasonable number of decoders for a layout of this size, at least 40-50 even at only $15 each.
And then I will admit to you that at this level my system is not any cheaper than DCC, but, the double track mainline version of my system, with remotely controlled trunouts, and signaling is way cheaper because my turnout controls provide all the needed signal interlocking information at little or no extra cost and the double track version actually uses less relays than single track in most cases. And if we add remotely controlled turnouts to the layout discribed above, no additonal relays would be needed.
With DCC you will still need a turnout control system like mine or stationary decoders, maybe a computer, and so on. Signaling can be so complex it is hard to compare, but interlocking is often egnored when it shold be the main thing we model. My system makes it easy to do interlockings.
My layout has 8 scale miles of double track, I only have 8 throttles and 25 master sections at a cost of about $60 each. Each single track "town" requires two master sections, hence the $120. Admittedly, my layout is designed for long trains (30-50 cars), so I only need a certain "density" of control sections.
So if I were to decide to change an existing DC layout over to your system
12 Towns (with a passing siding or 2)
(5 to 6 industrial sidings each town)
and I want to have 10 operators
Total mainline run of around 500 ft
What kind of cost per block (aprox) would you be talking
I know that this is way off the wall without seeing a layout design but throw out a guess!
David,
Do your turnout controls lock out when a train enters the interlocking? That's all I was refering to. And I was only talking about my turnout control circuits, not about the DC control system. My turnout control circuits apply equally to any control system and are very inexpensive.
But my constant lighting works fine, and my locos that need to run together run just fine together. With the pluse width modulation of the Aristo Train Engineer, My lights turn on full brightness while my loco sits still, than I advance the throttle and the train pulls away, without pushing a special button for the lights.
If I needed those things, maybe I would use DCC, but I don't, so I don't.
The operational layout that has the system is a conversion of an existing layout. The layout is over 15 years old and models a 1900 era logging line. Singe track with passing sidings, point to point with a continious run connection at the two end point staging yards. The wiring is complete except for some details to a small branch line. There are two staging yards, a major stub end town w/yard, 5 on line towns with passing sidings and industries, a wye, a branch line with dual and narrow guage and smaller stub end terminal at the end of the wye. About 170' of mainline.
We changed it from a typical tower cab control layout which used teathered throttles with no memory and about about 35 traditional blocks to my system with 4 mainline cabs and two branch line cabs. That is what it had before, now all six are wireless Aristo Craft Train Engineer throttles.
With X sections we reduced the number of master sections to 17, and most of the control panels have only four sets of five push buttons allowing operators to assign their cab to any of the four nearest sections or disconnect the cabs completely. Each panel "overlaps" or has duplicate controls so that you can assign your cab to the sections between panels from either direction as you walk around. With the push of one button, the section is transfered to your cab, or turned off with a reset button.
Turnouts direct the rest of the power. This is the tricky part to expalin, but the easy part to operate. Consider the typical single track siding, the east and west single tracks are the master sections, the "main" track of the siding and the side track are X-sections powered as follows:
Both turnouts set to the main route, the south rail of the main siding is connected to west section, the north rail to the east section. This then requires you to have both master sections assigned to your cab, since there is no common rail. The siding is completely turned off since no route is possible.
When one turnout is set for the siding and one for the main, power is transfered so that each respective master section (east or west) powers the route that is selected to it. This allows a train on cab A to enter from one direction while a train on cab B enters from the other. Each can proceed all the way into their rspective track, siding or main. Than with just the throw of one turnout and the push of one button one of the trains can proceed thru the meet while the other is on dead track. After the first train clears the turnout, again, with just one turnout throw and one button push, the other train pulls out of the siding and proceeds in his direction to the next town. They each already have the next section they will come to assigned to their cab do to the redundent buttons in the town they are leaving. They are now clear to proceed up to the turnout of the next siding. Which of course will require them to assess the statis of that siding and decide if a meet is needed or if they can simply assign the next two sections and continue on. Or, they may have switching to do at that town.
I hope you could follow that, its much easier to see in a drawing or in operation.
It took about 40 man hours to build the relay panels (built in advance at my house on the work bench) install them and modifiy the existing block and buss wiring. We also had to install ground throws with electrical contacts on the primary turnouts, about 16 or so. We did have a few issues at first, but none turned out to be the system design, all were track/wiring issues from the old block system. Another 20 or so hours went into building all new control panels, not completely necessary, but desired by the owner.
It has been running about six months now. There is only one signaled block on this layout for a long tunnel. The intigrated signal circuits for my double track version of this are being tested and built now for my layout.
The layout owner wanted wireless, but has many old brass shays and other small power and was reluctant to go DCC. He is very happy now.
But none of it is complex or even needs much testing, again no solid state, mostly all relays.
Relays are now very cheap but just as good as ever (I mean the real industrial ones, not something from radio shack). The relays used are 24VDC industrial ice cubes with 5 amp contacts. I did design and manufacture a circuit board for the cab selection circuit which takes 8 relays. Thes boards are about 6x6. The typical single track passing siding arrangement takes only two boards and two additional individual relays. Some more complex track arrangements take more.
I hope this made sense, I can send you the book when its ready.
So this system has only been working
Less than 6 months?
6 months?
1 year?
Over a year?
And all of the signals - turnout controls and X-Blocks are ALL installed and fully functional?
Was this a NEW install on a NEW layout or
A conversion to an existing layout?
How long did it take to install your system?
Has the relatively common usage of DCC changed track planning?
IMHO, not particularly. But I've always been a fan of integrated layout design, not track planning. Control system should be chosen to suit the operating characteristics of the layout. Or the layout design should be directed towards taking advantage of the strengths of the control system selected. Same is true for coupling/uncoupling, desired scenic features, longest expected train length, and so on.
DCC really lends itself to walk-around control of mulitple trains operating simultaneously on linear style layouts. Yes, the same can be accomplished in DC, but as stated, the DC version takes considerably more planning and is not as easily modified.
The other area where DCC really shines is the complex, island layouts that were typically wired with dual cab control before DCC. Operating these in DC without putting in advanced logic, X blocks, and the like drained the fun out of operations for me. The simplification of operating reversing loops, wyes, and engine terminals with DCC restores operating fun to these layout features.
OTOH, DC works very well for sequential operations, and for layouts where the operators are playing different roles such as tower operator and dispatcher. And for sitting back and watching unattended trains run, DCC has no particular advantage over DC.
Again, let the choice of control system be driven by the kind of operations desired.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Disclosure: I'm a DC user due to single operator status, and modeling small prototypes generally considered too small for sound. In my scenario, DC is sufficient, especially since that's what I already have. If/when the situation changes, then DCC would likely become a higher priority for my hobby dollars.
We have not had any problems after shakedown yet!
Lee,
My comments to you have nothing to with the DC/DCC question/Jerry Springer show.
I had the idea in the early eighties to be able to control turnouts from a hand held throttle. I even designed a system for a simple layout plan I submitted to MR for a small room layout layout planning contest. It wasa layout for a small room, like 9x12, and my tethered hand held would have been able to control the dozen or so turnouts on this small layout with a simple rotary switch and two pushbuttons in addition to the throttle knob. I never actually built it and they didn't print my plan.
Fast forward to now. A few years ago I designed a layout for a friend, its a large basement empire with a 500' plus double track mainline and about 100 turnouts. He uses digitrax and stationary decoders as you discribe. I (and some others) find it rather cumbersome, haveing to push 3-4 buttons to throw one turnout or route.
I use lighted pushbuttons on simple local panels around the layout, the push one button not only aligns the whole route, the buttons light up to map out the route on the track diagram. And I can have as many "copies" of that control panel as I need so can control those turnouts from a local panel and a central CTC like panel. My turnout control system is DC or DCC friendly, no more expensive than stationary decoders, and can do things like give the central dispatcher the abilty to limit local control or it can lock out all control while trains are within the interlocking limits, just like the prototype.
Lee
I knew a layout owner that had the cameras in his engine and the DCC controlled turnouts and would run his layout watching the TV up stairs and do switching all from his easy chair with his Radio Digitrax system.
While I would not want to do that at least it was able to be done with todays DCC !
Are the layout owners that you have set this system up on comfortable enough that they can trouble shoot the system on their own or do they call you?
I am writing a complete book and documentation of the system. If you understand how a switch turns on a light and can read, you can figure it out. No solid state magic, simple industrial grade ice cube relays and pushbuttons with built in LED pilotlights.
And for throttles you can use the Aristo Train Engineer like I do, or the RSC radio throttle, or an old memory walk around DC throttle of your choice, just to namea few.
Since we seem to have strayed into the Jerry Springer show... Let me try to get back to the original topic...
I've designed quite a few layouts, several of which have actually been built! I've been using DCC only for about the last 5 years, and I can say that without a doubt, DCC's capabilities are very liberating compared to "the old days".
Now, I can draw a plan that follows the prototype more closely, and is based on train movements and operation rather than on track insulators and toggle switches. And when I say "operation" I include the ability to turn on a couple of trains, set up a couple of routes, fix a cocktail and let them fly, as much as I mean fussing over car cards and waybills.
And while this is primarily a wiring issue, it is also very much a design issue. One big difference is you gain another 3 to 6 square feet of layout when you don't need a big command center bristling with switches and knobs. (Which I understand is not necessarily a requirement for DC, but more often than not, that's what you've got!)
In my opinion, you have more flexibility in terms of aisles, and most importantly, you can have a more complex layout that can still be operated by a single individual, or if you are so inclined, by a full crew.
The advent of decoders to operate turnouts and set up routes right from your hand held is nothing short of revolutionary. I have not done this on my layout yet, but I have run on some that have, and I must say, it's great to sit at one end of the room and throw a turnout on the other end without the need for 300 lbs of copper between the two points! These kinds of choices absolutely affect how I design a track plan.
Your mileage may vary, but probably only because you haven't tried it yet...
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
So Sheldon
Moving on to the home layout -
Are these other layout owners going to be able to fix their systems when you are not around?
My layout, and its control system are still under construction, BUT you are quite welcome to come to Bel Air, MD and see the other layout on which the system has been installed. It is a layout which has been on the NMRA national convention tour and is on open house tours numerious times through out the year. If you are ever in the Baltimore or Philly area, let me know, I'll get you a private showing of that layout and mine.
You can view pictures of that layout at www.trainweb.org/harm and click on layouts, then click on KMRR. There is not yet any info on the control system there because we just completed the installation several months ago.
I don't currently have any picture hosting available, but when my book is finished in a month or two I will happily send you a copy, complete with photos of the completed operating layout and all the info needed to build the system. Or send me a private message with your address and I'll send you an explainative flyer and the "secret" wiring schematic now. But remember I'm old fashioned, I don't have all this available electronicly yet for e-mail.
And, yes, there are no block toggles in my system, its just like electricity its self, its magic.
You don't have to defend anything, you should just accept that I have different interests than you.
You keep talking about Clubs, OK, I get it, that's what your into. I'm not. I belong to a local Round Robin group - no building, no politics, no layout, no bosses, no followers. I belonged to clubs years ago and had my fill thank you.
All your points are valid for those situations. Again, I not trying to convert anyone.
I'm just offering my information to those who might be interested.
Unlike you I'm not selling anything, And if I do it will only be because enough people where interested and I can't afford to give the information way for free indefinately (printing costs, postage, or web site costs, etc.)
Nobody has to keep it running when I'm gone, its my layout, not a club. I don't much care what happens to it when I'm gone, I won't be here.
But, that's how our world is today, nobody wants to know how to do anything, just throw it away an buy another one.
I don't know anything about any of these bad experiences you have seen with "complex" DC systems that no one could keep running, but in my 40 years in this (including a pretty long membership at the Severna Park Model Railroad Club - been in MR quite a bit over the years) I have not had such bad experiences. The stuff I use is industrial quality and installed the way I did as an electrician wiring a process machine in a factory - stuff runs for decades in bad environments. Sloppy wiring will always "break down". build it right, it runs for decades.
I knew a club like that once (almost automated for shows) and this was in a 4000 sq ft building built just for the Club.
They had computer control for LOOK-Ahead block selection and would stop the train if the block was not clear.
They even had a way to connect some of the early Analogue (sp) Command Control systems to an operator if he wanted to use his equipment.
This was way back in the late 80's early 90's just before DCC.
And where is this great system today (trash can) WHY?
Because the original members (being electronic whizzes) left the club and NO ONE knew how to keep it running.
The old computers were obsolete and the system kept going down hill
DCC saved this large Club. So how long will the DC custom systems last without the original designer around to keep them running?
Know one knows. But it is something to think about!
We ran into this at the Club - no one wanted to learn the wiring of the HO layout or the Lionel. When problems developed everyone called BOB!
Well BOB isn't getting any younger!
We removed all of the old DC control panels and I showed the younger members what had to be done and they took the bull by the horns and made the necessary changes.
The HO layout runs DCC and the LIONEL runs DCS (Lionels version of DCC).
All is well again.
And it won't matter who's DCC or DCS system we use as theinterface (the layout) has been converted to accept any brand of command control!
As for signals - you don't have to use DCC systems signals there are many other mfg of signal systems out there that can be computer connected.
I am not saying your system is bad or anything but WHO is going to be able to keep it runing once you are gone?
Camping is not for me, I did more than enough of that work as a teen as that was how our family vacationed.
Drinking is not for me, my first wife was a drunk and good riddens to her and her self destructive behavior. I know not everyone has those problems, but I dislike that general environment.
FREE, I doubt that, maybe no admission charge I would have to get there and stay, and my wife, while she supports my interests, is not really interested in participating, and neither of us like crowds much.
It is interesting how outgoing social people assume everyone is like that, or should be like that or will enjoy that sort of thing.
Again, I understand your fun, its just not my fun.
I use a system with no "block toggles" or rotary switches, it has very simple easy to use control panels with a few lighted pushbuttons and wireless throttles. It is completely walk around friendly plus has CTC/central panel operation or dispatching. No computer screens, I don't like that.
I have operated LOTS and LOTS of DCC, its fine, it just connot meet all my goals at a price I am willing to pay.
I want signaling that actually helps govern operation, I am as interested in mainline time table and/or CTC operation as I am switching, maybe more so. DCC requires added layers of infrastructure to do all this other stuff. In my system it is all intergrated in at a lower total cost.
I want good hands free display operation.
I prefer to avoid decoder cost/installation to the 100 locos I already own.
If you came here and ran the one layout we have already converted to my system you would see it is not like any DC system you have ever run. Even the DCC guys in our Round Robin group think its great.
Like any system it has a small learning curve, but no more so than a DT400.
Again, I 'm not tring to "convert" anyone. Everyone has their own ideas about what is fun and what they like in this hobby. Admittly I am not a "follow the croud" kind of person.
I looked long and hard at both DCC and Computerized Block Control - rejected both.
My system does take a fair amount of planning and wiring, BUT that is how it eliminates virtually ALL the kinds of operator problems you discribe. It is admittedly difficult to explain in words, but the extensive use of X-sections (floating blocks to some) and a pushbutton circuit that allows cabs to be assigned from multiple locations as well as a turnout control system that allows turnouts to be one button route selected and controled from multiple locations as well, all work to gether to make it very user friendly.
My system can work with ground throws or switch machines, I use both. I like ground throws where they would be manual on the prototype and switch machines on the main in CTC or tower territory. The layout we have already converted to my system is all ground throws.
And the Aristo Train Engineer throttle is simple and performs well.
I have been at this hobby for over 40 years, as well as worked in the model train business, seen and done a lot, I know what I like and don't, and I know all your arguments against DC before you present them.
Sometimes not even the person who built it. When I was a kid, my Dad did most of the layout setup, tracklaying and wiring. Certainly not operationally oriented, it was a glorified multiple oval with various crossovers and sidings. And it was a lucky day if he managed to traverse the layout with a train and not derail it due to a missed turnout setting. Me, I could sit there and run trains all day and never run a switch. I think my parents realized my interest in all things electrical was for real when, at age 5, I came down one saturday morning and found that dad had finished the outer oval all the way around so I could run a train, but when I attempted to do so it died halfway around. A little crawling around and I found the insulated gaps and extra feeders that had not yet been hooked up - so I hooked them up and got the train running.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Getting back to Operations. DC vs DCC
It isn't much different than what my Club had 5 layouts ago.
We used DC and could run any switching we needed to do BUT!
The membership kept forgetting what switch to set if they had not been in for a while.
And when I saw them manually flipping the Atlas sw machines instead of using the Single Push Button diode matrix, I figured WHY am I wasting my time wiring up this dumb layout this way.
The next layout we built used manual ground throws and the Club members were much happier!
Once we went with DCC they ACTUALLY began running the layout as they no longer had to relearn, at every meeting, the way the toggle switches had to be set to get through the complicated yards etc.
When I built my fairly large home layout I had learned that to get a new visitor to be able to run trains there quickly, there could be no complicated toggle switches or control panels.
Actually there is nothing on my fascia at all other than town names.
When they are comfortable, they can then choose to take a local out and switch to their hearts content!
All of the turnouts are manual ground throws and are mounted at the edge of the layout - no reaching into the layout to throw a turnout. Car movement is by colored pin on the car and all they have to do is match colors with the flag on the industry.
And NO! I am not worried that it isn't prototypical with the colored pins on the cars - Operations is the Key thing here!
If the NuBe is the least bit intimidated by fancy controls they WILL NOT be back!
Our Club lost more members that way and if we are to keep the hobby of Model Railroading alive then keeping it simple to use (until the NuBe is comfortable) is the most important thing.
When the new modeler has enough experience then he can decide if he wants to get deeper into DCC, OPs and the many other facets of Model Railroading.
But thinking that DC is easier to learn(from and OPERATIONS atand point ONLY) for the NuBe is only kidding ones self! For the person that built the layout it might be easy but that is the only person!
Just speaking from experience in being a member of a Club for the last 26 years and having built over 20 layouts in all scales.
Without splitting any hairs I'll agree with most of that.
davidmbedardIn DC, you cannot roam outside of your cab area unless you switch over to another cab.
Not sure I understand this statement, I can assign any cab to any track section.
And, I'm glad your having fun. That is what it is about.
But for me, I want my fun at my house, with my 800' track, with or without a group of people and with no setup time or drive to the hockey arena. So FreeMo is not for me, just like careful planning is not for some others. For me the planning is just as much fun as the end result. And, as just explained to others in a different thread, I am equally interested in most all aspects of the hobby, except maybe I am weak on stuff requiring travel, socializing or conforming to what others are doing.
Its has changed designing. You can use more reversing loops instead of running a loop track and alot less wiring and cab blocks. I redesigned my new layout from a loop track to a end to end because wiring a reverse loop was to much of a hassle in DC where as DCC there no polarity problems to worry about. With no polarity problems to deal with it has simplified what we can do now with out having to deal with the infamous DC short.
4x8 are fun too!!! RussellRail
Mike,
That's completly out of context, I have explained repetedly that I want my layout to do both, operation and display running.
Did you actaully read all I have posted here, I think not.
Hey all,
Now I am by no means an expert, but that will kind of be my point. I think DCC has brought more advanced possibilities in trackplanning to those of us who would otherwise steer clear of. I would not have added a reverse loop to my layout if I was running DC nor would I run multiple trains. It was mentioned some of the true experts from the 70's who broke ground for the rest of us that their layouts would work well regardless of what control they used. I'm sure this is true without a doubt, but can the same be said for some of us at the beginner level? Probably not. Basically, as a beginner DCC opened up some areas of trackplanning for me that I would have avoided for my first layout restricting myself to most of the beginner type layouts that many people dread (4x8, spaghetti, etc).
Thanks
Rob