I just moved into a new house that has a huge attic that is wide open (1500 sq ft). It is not insulated. I was wondering how concerned I should be about temperature extremes. I live in South Central Pennsylvania. Average lows in the winter are around mid-20s. Not sure of what the average highs will be like in summer, would guess in the upper 80s. Anyone have any thoughts? Thank you in advance.
Wayne Sclesky
I found the forum archives and answered my own question. If anyone has any input still feel free to post.
Wayne: Living in the same area as you ; we do have quite a big swing in temps thru-out the year. High 90s in the summer not uncommon. Also high humidity is the norm. My thought is any layout in an un-insulated, non climate controlled room in Pa. would suffer with all the contraction and expansion of the wood. Not to mention the poor owner found either sprawled out from a heat stroke or frozen stiff with hypothermia!
My parents' home in York County has an uninsulated attic and it is unbearable in the summer and you can see your breath in the winter. Not an enjoyable room to be in for sure!
Matt
Wayne,
Do yourself a big favor and insulate. Here in the Hudson valley it gets over a hundred in the house attic and as low as the outside temps. My layout is in a well insulated and sheetrocked 3/4 story room over the carriage house. Summer highs rarely exceed 85F and I heat to 45F in the winter. No problems with either the layout or my comfort. I simply turn up the heat when I am in there in the winter.
If you're not comfortable you won't be in the room with the trains. You already know that temp extremes are not good for humidity levels etc. IMHO insulation and a sealed dust free ceiling are worth every penny.
Karl
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
Not an attic, but a non-climate-controlled garage in the Dessicated Desert. Max temperature 120 degrees (F) in July and August, sub-freezing in January. Average humidity is a close approximation of zero.
In your situation I would insulate and sheetrock the space between the rafters, since most of your heat will be generated by sunlight beating on the roof. Check with your local code authorities - mine require a building permit and inspection for new sheetrock installations, but not for the installation of blown-in insulation behind existing sheetrock.
One thing I did was minimize my use of forest products - wood doesn't take kindly to low-power baking in extremely low humidity, and neither does cork. My benchwork is steel (steel studs, to be specific) and I only use a thin layer of plywood under extruded foam for subgrade and roadbed. Neither steel nor foam are bothered by the humidity situation. I have had to leave wider than customary rail gaps to cope with expansion through the full 100 degree temperature range.
I run analog DC, and my electricals (including locomotives and power packs) don't seem to mind the extreme temperatures. I don't know how DCC and other fancy electronics would be affected. Some might be actively unhappy. Careful study of the equipment manuals and inquiries to the manufacturers might be in order.
Just my . Other's experiences may differ.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Some minor framing and proper insulation will pay off and allow you to use the space year round.
You say new house, new construction or new to you? Anything you do regardless of age or construction techniques should be done to existing codes. Most attic mods will affect the insulating propeties and ventilation of the space or the existing house.
If new construction, was a floor installed by the builder? Many times unfinished attics will not have sizable ceiling joists that will allow the R30 to be compressed by laying plywood flooring. If a floor is present then knee walls and insulation and drywall should be done. I assume the rafters/ roof is stick built and not truss, most likey 2x8 or 10s. Collar ties every 32" or 48" under the ridge. Look into high density insulation for roof/ rafter. It is important to allow breathing/ ventilation under the roof sheathing from the soffit to ridge. The foam venting panels (called various names throughout the country) can be stapled to the roof ply before insulating the bays.This allows air movement from soffit venting to the ridge. This house most likely has a ridge vent instead of gable venting. If not one should be installed. The collar ties need to be filled in and check that they are level/ straight for the small flat vaulted ceiling to be installed. Framers will eyeball these collar ties and willnot make life easy to fit w/ drywall. If added ceiling height is needed at the ridge, just change out all the collar ties to a smaller dimensional stock. In the northeast, collar ties are generally done with 1x8 ledgerboard.
Hopefully you can find a vertical chase of sorts to run a couple home runs to your electrical panel for layout power and one for a thru wall AC unitand/or baseboard electric heat if the house doesn't already have central air. If one isn't obvious fishing a couple wires through closet walls would be an option. If a 2 story house look for chasing a wet wall/ linen closet as the stack is seldom changed from verical through the 2nd floor/ bath.
Hope this helps, may seem overwelming to some but not really a big deal.
Proper prep of this space will make it's use so much more enjoyable for it's primary purpose to have fun running trains.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
It is new to me and my wife. However the home was built in 1792. It was originally a tavern. There are two levels, a basement and then the attic. The attic has a good floor, with windows and 2 sky lights. There is electricty already run to it. One of my biggest concerns would be the ability to get 4x8 sheets of sheet rock to the attic. The house is in very good condition, but I would be a little concerned about adding alot of weight to the attic. Although there would most likely be no issues with it. I will definitely consult with a professional before I consider any work there.
I am a photographer. A loft space I had in Kansas City was on the top level of a old warehouse. We insulated between the rafters and then covered that with 4x8 sheets of foam. Was lightweight and then painted to blend it. That might be a possibility. Thank you for all of your information it was very helpful.
Wayne
wsclesky It is new to me and my wife. However the home was built in 1792. It was originally a tavern. There are two levels, a basement and then the attic. The attic has a good floor, with windows and 2 sky lights. There is electricty already run to it. One of my biggest concerns would be the ability to get 4x8 sheets of sheet rock to the attic. The house is in very good condition, but I would be a little concerned about adding alot of weight to the attic. Although there would most likely be no issues with it. I will definitely consult with a professional before I consider any work there. I am a photographer. A loft space I had in Kansas City was on the top level of a old warehouse. We insulated between the rafters and then covered that with 4x8 sheets of foam. Was lightweight and then painted to blend it. That might be a possibility. Thank you for all of your information it was very helpful. Wayne
Sounds like a really neat home. That old post and beam construction should be able to handle anything that you can throw at it. Of coarse it's always good to be safe, you don't know how much the origional structure may have been compromised over the years.
Sounds like the access/ stairs are tight, any way to open it up? If the windows are large enough, the sash can be removed to boom the 4x8s. I need to do this on a regular basis on many jobs for inadaquate 2nd floor access.
At any rate, any insulation under the roof boards will need venting. Condensation @ the sheathing and/or under the roofing material can be a problem w/o allowing for air movement. Temperature and humidity changes can play havoc with the structure as well as your layout.
Good luck with this space, keep us posted to your progress.
Definitely follow Bob's advice. My layout is in my attic, the house is 93 years old. Originally there was no insulation, crumbling plaster, and only one electrical fixture... a bare lightbulb in the middle of the ceiling.
I stripped it all out, ran two new circuits up, and completely re-did the room, including insulating the roof and ceiling. Now, despite there being no radiator in that room (a major benefit when designing the layout!) I get enough convective heat to stay in there that it's perfectly habitable year round. I have a window unit A/C that goes in between the end of May and the first of October or so. I keep that burbling along at a very low setting to keep the temperature moderated and the humidity down.
It'll be a lot of work, but in the end it will be very well worth it.
This shot is taken at roughly the same location as the one above.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Hi Wayne,
I live in Lower Michigan and was fortunate to be able to build a "model railroad dedicated" loft to the detached 24'x24' garage, (with an inside stairway, to the unobstructed loft, with 2"x12" supporting floor joists). Before construction of any model railroad benchwork, I insulated the ceiling and walls and had 10 double tube shop lights installed.(along with adequate wall outlets. I then insulated all the walls and hip roof, before applying a suspended ceiling between the suspended shop lights, and insulated the walls, before applying Luan backdrop. For heating, cooling, and dehumidifying, I installed two floor-model air conditioners with tubular water vents to the outside downspouts. In addition, I have two forced air electrical heaters. I am into DCC, so I have a removable Digitrax SuperChief, and other removable DCC equipment on the four power districts.(just in case they do not fare well in extreme temperatures). To prevent track buckling, I have used an excess of plastic joiners, with jumpers connecting each of the 240yds of track. Each of the extra spaced flextrack sections has feeder wires connected to the four isolated bus wired sections. Bob Hahn
My experience with attic railroading in Central PA was I couldn't take the extreme's in temperature. No fun trying to couple/uncouple on a 20 degree day wearing gloves!!
I was reading your post. Thats a awesome amount of space that you have. I did finish my walk up attic ( live in New Hampshire- one hour north of Boston). Winter temps are below zero and summer for a couple of months the temperatures can get very hot 90 degrees. I installed (had a contractor put in a propane furnace and central a/c unit). The room is finished and insulated/carpeted with outlets. 600 sq ft of finished space, it was larger but after the sheetrock goes up --the room shrunk. I would finish it off if you can it will make visits much more bearable and add some sort of heating and cooling system it makes the space bearable.
George
Don't even think about starting your layout up there till you have insulatio/heat/AC. You WILL have track problems if you don't. Dust and dirt are another factor to concider too.Mine is in an uninsulated out building. I'm now scrabbling to get it insulated and climate controlled.
Depending upon how old you are and how long you have been modeling you might remember a model rail by the name of Bill McClanahan who was an artist with the Dallas Morning News(?). His Texas and Rio Grande Western model railroad was in his attic. He once commented--perhaps it was only an inference--that, were he to ever do it again, he would pick someplace other than an attic for a location for a layout.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
wsclesky I just moved into a new house that has a huge attic that is wide open (1500 sq ft). It is not insulated. I was wondering how concerned I should be about temperature extremes. I live in South Central Pennsylvania. Average lows in the winter are around mid-20s. Not sure of what the average highs will be like in summer, would guess in the upper 80s. Anyone have any thoughts? Thank you in advance. Wayne Sclesky
I built my first HO layout in a huge attic in a stone 1760's farmhouse near Langhorne, PA. I built it over the Christmas break from college. Track was code 100 brass laid on perforated fiber tie strips.
Come the summer break there were shorts all over the place because the rails expanded and closed all of the gaps, besides buckling some of the track. It took me days of hard work to install plastic rail joiners and relay a lot of track.
There is too much temperature fluctuation in that area to try to build and operate a model railroad without climate control. It was way too cold in the winter and way too hot in the summer. There was also a huge basement which would have made a much better venue, but there was huge coal furnace that I feared would generate too much dust.
If the building code allows it, and you plan to be a long time resident, I suggest that you bite the bullet and first build an air conditioned and heated train room with adequate lighting and electrical circuits. Believe me, You'll be glad you did.
Living in Sunny Scottsdale, Arizona, we don't have basements so I have just completed insulating and dry walling my 2 car garage and installing 3 8,000 BTU window air conditioners. In the winter, I use two plug in portable baseboard heaters from HD. Two coats of paint on the walls and ceiling and 2 coats of epoxy floor coating were done to keep the dust down. Now I have a beautiful, livable space that I can enjoy year round in comfort.
Thank you everyone for all of the great advice. I am definitely going to insulate a part of the attic off and add heating and cooling. For the meantime I will do a 5x9 layout in my office which has a good amount of room. Plus doing a smaller layout will give me some good experience and technique before I tackle something much larger. For those interested in seeing the attic as is here is a link to a 360 virtual tour: Thanks!
Nice space!
wscleskyI just moved into a new house that has a huge attic that is wide open (1500 sq ft). It is not insulated. I was wondering how concerned I should be about temperature extremes. I live in South Central Pennsylvania. Average lows in the winter are around mid-20s. Not sure of what the average highs will be like in summer, would guess in the upper 80s. Anyone have any thoughts? Thank you in advance. Wayne Sclesky
Looks like you don't have this problem but for those with newer homes, watch out for undersized ceiling joists. When we moved into our a few years ago, I was looking at all that attic space, thinking, some plywood, insulation, drywall, no problem. Then we measured the ceiling joists. Just 2x6 with no load bearing structure to them. The way they ran things, there wasn't even a good way to sister on 2x10s. We would have had to build an entire deck spanning from load bearing wall to load bearing wall above the "suspended ceiling." I would have been left with a long skinny hall down the center of the attic when considering decent head room. If you're building a house from scratch, go ahead and put in sufficient structure to finish out the attic later if you want. The up front cost is minimal compared to doing it later.