Some of you know I'm a newbie in this Model Railroading Hobbie.
Right now I'm still undecided as to the scale and Gauge that I want to go with, I think it's best to wait until I determine the Layout first.
First of all I'm very handy with woodwork and build just about anything out of wood.
The room I'm considering is a 10 foot by 11 foot with a 4 foot doorway on one wall and a 5 foot window on another.There are some bookshelves that can be move.
My "thoughts" are to have a smaller Home base layout with sectional modulars leading off the base on each side.
My "thinking, thinking" tell me that HO or smaller stands a better chance for the radius end of the deal. But which scale offers the best "performance" for "elevation" climbing. I've not found any reference (yet) to maximal degree elevation acceptable. (Isn't it no more than 9 degrees on real train tracks? )
The early thought is to go with a "Steam" engine and landscaping in a Old West.
Sooooo... Hit me with what I'm up against and offer me some suggestions as well as any question (don't forget I'm a newbie But I should understand what you have to say.
Thanks
Buggy
Hi Buggy,
Welcome to the Forums, you will find a great bunch of Guys and Gals here that are always ready to step up and share their experiences with you or guide you to places where the help is available.
NOW FOR YOUR QUESTION::::: It really all depends on what you think you would like to do with your Pike. If it is just running some trains for railfanning and photos you would do fine in HO. however if you want to get into more operational stuff, your roon size doesn't allow for very big yards. I'm in HO and my room is 17' x13' and I have gone to a lower level (2nd level) to have yards that will be of any use. So considering how involved you want this to get, you may want to consider "N" gauge. More railroad smaller space. Search for "Spacemouse's beginners guide" here in the Forums. Dr. Chuck gives a great crash course in a lot of things that you should consider before spending the dollars. Then, also consider all the many great manuals that Kalmbach publish on all matters pertaining to the hobby.From the Model Railroader magazine to design, wiring (dc or dcc),( I have stayed in DC). Engine terminals, Junctions, Industries, Bridges and Tunnels, Landscaping and Track Laying manuals, etc. etc. They are great investments that you will refer to over and over. Then all the information on the Web there are sites such as Joe Fugates and Cliff Powers and others that will just "BLOW YOUR MIND" These guys are true MASTERS of the game. And I delight in having access to their experience and ideas. It is unlimited as to where and how far you want to take your layout. Planning is a major part, but don't get hung up on it. Nothing you do has to be permanet. You can always change things you don't like or figure you can make better. I feel I wasted about two years in getting started. So I just started laying track and was prepared to make adjustments and it has worked out pretty well.
As to raadii, (fron the first book of John) I would suggest you plan on staying larger than 22'' if in HO. But again this depends on the size of equipment that you want to run. If you want the larger steam locos or full length passeger cars or the new auto racks there is no way you are going to get away with 22" radius. My radiis go from 23 1/2" to 47" and I decided a long time ago that I like the look of the 72' passengers cars better that the 86 footers. I do not run double stacks or auto racks as they were not in my time frame (era) 1970 -- early 80s.
As to elevations. Some people get away with 4% grades. But that is not ideal. 2% and under is what you should shoot for and especially if you are wanting to run steam. Diesels are much more forgiving on the grades and easy to MU two or three together to get over the hump if necessary.
We all look forward to your decisions and to follow your progress in the W.G.H.
May the "Rails" never be quiet.
Johnboy out.............
Long live the "Wobbly"
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
Thanks for the Welcome John, which by the way my name is John as well. Buggyman is my internet screen name as you did well in nick naming me Buggy as many do.
OK.. Thanks for something to think about. When I referred to the radius, I was thinking of snug corners as you noted I'm dealing with a small room per say. Levels I figured would give me more running space. But as you noted, the elevation from one level to the next could present a problem.
As for Power Pack, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a DCC, but I know I'll to start out with a standard pack (haven't research that yet) But for start up DCC can be a little on the pricy side.
But you got me right on the fact I will have to go by trial and error as I progress toward the Never finished Ultamnt (sp) goal. All I want to do is build from scratch with a set basic guidleline and go from there.
I'll check into those you spoke highly of and as they always say.. Learn from the Masters
Buggyman(Isn't it no more than 9 degrees on real train tracks? )
There's no hard and fast rule on this, but Good Gravy, 9% is a VERY steep grade in the real world. (The steepest mainline grade I know of in the real world is just shy of 6%.) Most models will do best under 4% maximum. That's not to say a steeper grade is impossible, but if you want to pull a full train--not a just a car or two--up the hill, any more than that's going to be disappointing.
Midnight Railroader There's no hard and fast rule on this, but Good Gravy, 9% is a VERY steep grade in the real world. (The steepest mainline grade I know of in the real world is just shy of 6%.) Most models will do best under 4% maximum. That's not to say a steeper grade is impossible, but if you want to pull a full train--not a just a car or two--up the hill, any more than that's going to be disappointing.
Hi Midnight Eailroader, Thanks for your comment. I guess I could say "I didn't say 9 degree per foot" But you raised as valid point as I've been looking around (maybe I just haven't found it yet).
I understand degrees in building but I'm not an engineer. So May I ask if that 4% (max) is over a 12 inch length?
Speaking plain english to me would be something 1 inch rise over a 12 inch lenght.
Don't think of me being a smarty pant, If I seem that way it's just my way of asking and learning. If I offemded you please accept my apology in advance. I "KNOW" I've got a long way to go and a LOT to learn.
Grade is rise over run expressed as a percentage, i.e., a 1% grade is, in fact, 1 inch of rise in 100 inches.
A 9% grade would be 9 inches of rise over 100 inches of run.
I hate math and am bad at it, so here's a helpful link for model railroaders:
http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/RRgrades.html
It's me again Buggyman,
Just had a thought you might like to consider.
Because of the small size of your room and the amount of space that is taken up by elevation changes, no matter how you do it, with ramps or Helixes, there is a company that makes train elevators. They come in different lengths and height changes. You would then be able to pull your train on to a siding or behind a station etc and lower it by the elevator down to your second level. Just GOOGLE "model train elevators" and you will come up with a large page of various sites and information to explore.
This will at least expand your possibilities for a limited space but still have a multiple deck layout.
Be sure to keep us informed of your decisions.
By the way, this is my 400th post.
Johnboy out.................
May the rails never be silent.
Thanks for that Link Midnight Railroader.. that helps a Bunch!
And John.. thanks for that Ideal.. I'll have to look in to that and see what all it involves.
OK.. anybody keeping track of this One thing I'm picking up is that You have to be carefule about the Gauge of the track matching up with the scenry. I read where Spacemouse spoke about his problem with EZ track being to tall..
Now.. I'm not going to start a war of opinion, But only want to know say for example HO scale. How to match the railroad bed with the track to match the Buildings.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Buggy [:D}
BuggymanBut only want to know say for example HO scale. How to match the railroad bed with the track to match the Buildings.
Put the structures on risers (cardboard, foamboard, wood) to raise them to track height. Note that in the real world, right-of-way is usually taller than the surrounding terrain and buildings must be on a ride to reach it.
Buggyman As for Power Pack, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a DCC, but I know I'll to start out with a standard pack (haven't research that yet) But for start up DCC can be a little on the pricy side.
As far a DCC is concern, you don't have to spend $200.00 for one. For a starter I still love my Bachmann EZ command. New it is only $100.00 about the same a great MRC 9500 transformer.
For the room sizes, I would go N Scale. I am a HO guy for now and have a 19 X 24 room for the trains. In HO scale a 18 inch turn is tight. With 4 inches on the sides for safety that equals 45 inches. That is a lot of room. In N scale a 18 inch turn would be a big sweeping turn that any big Engine or rolling stock would look great on.
With the sizes of the room you have, the only way I would go HO or lager would be with a round the room bench. Here are few ideas to think about.
Reason I am such a fan of the round the room, in HO scale and only 3 foot wide it will handle 3 main lines that are 32 inch, that is pretty good sizes radii in HO. To get into the room you can use a lift out section or a duck under.
All So as well.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
It's me again Buggy,
Now..Your Question:::::::
I'm not going to start a war of opinion, But only want to know say for example HO scale. How to match the railroad bed with the track to match the Buildings..
To get those buildings up level with your warehouse and stations etc. The answers that were given will do the job ,
but in many instances some of us build a deeper foundation for the building to sit on. You can make it look like concrete block, or concrete, brick, or stone whatever turns you on or what ever is suitable for such a building in the era that you are modeling.This can be done with styrene (square or sheet) or balsa wood with printed paper in whatever format you want to cover it.
Going to climb into the sack now, hope to get some MRRing done tomorrow.
Night all.
Johnboy out.....................
The "Wobbly" will wobble in the morning.
May the Rails never be silent..
Ken,
LOVE that layout.. It would fit perfectly in my dinning room.
BUT.... The battle of the space would have to commence between the "Dear Wife" and I to have access to it
I'm already working on her as she has her own "Craft" room all for herself. I'm "demanding (while ducking) for my own same space
While on the subject of rooms, In Florda as you know we are warm most of the year. Our biggest headache is "Humidity"
But do any Model Railroaders ever use the Garage for their Setup?
I'm still searching out options, But it still looks like it will end up in the room I spoke of at the begining.
Thanks "ALL" of you for feedbacks, The info has been great and slowly little by little it's sinking in my head.
BuggymanBut do any Model Railroaders ever use the Garage for their Setup?
Yes, many do. Some seal the big door and keep the cars outside; some share the space; some have developed lifting mechanisms to raise the layout over the cars.
Midnight RailroaderBuggymanBut do any Model Railroaders ever use the Garage for their Setup? Yes, many do. Some seal the big door and keep the cars outside; some share the space; some have developed lifting mechanisms to raise the layout over the cars.
OK.. let me push that a little further, Wouldn't the "Uncondition" of the air wack hovac on the System, like rusting the tracks or something like that?
I "could" go out in My Garage and gain more space lenght wise, Say a Layout of about 6 foot by 20 foot. but I wonder as I said about the weather factor.
I seen some of these Railroaders do Garden Railroads and I can't help but think about the maintenance due to the weather factor.
All of this info is really helping me learn and [Understand[/b] the Life of a Model Railroader.
And i appreciate that. I want understand and feel this before I undertake my own project whatever direction it goes.
Some thoughts - more or less random:
Era and type of prototype have more to do with choice of scale and gauge than most realize. For example, an N scale model of an 80+ft passenger car is actually 3/4" longer over the couplers than a 36ft reefer in HO. Both will take a 15" minimum radius curve reasonably well - mechanically yes, visually not so great. The HO model is taller and wider. So length-wise and curve radius-wise, you can fit a 1900-era HO line (but no 80ft passenger cars) in the same space as an N modern era line. There will be fewer parallel tracks on the HO layout in the same space. Short lines with 10 car trains in HO take less length than a double-headed 20 car mainline train in N. The question is which do you prefer? Note that models of older era and smaller prototypes are generally less available in N, too. Deciding what your vision is is the key to a successful layout and the most appropriate choices.
Grades eat a lot of space in any gauge. The only difference between a 2% grade in N scale and HO scale is that the HO scale grade has to rise further to cross over another track - 4" rail to rail is typical in HO. Ability to handle steep grades generally improves as you go to larger scales. In larger scales, there is more room to add weight to improve tractive effort. Locomotive superstructures are more easily made of metal. In addition, friction does not scale down linearly with scale. If you want to run 4-5% grades, O scale is better than HO which is better than N. Again, weight is king when it comes to pulling power.
Believe it or not, with the advent of nickel silver rail, the portion of the layout most sensitive to humidity changes is the unsealed lumber of your benchwork. But reality is that the more comfortable you are, the more time you will spend with your layout. In Florida and other non-snow regions, closing in a garage for a layout is quite practical. Installing insulation, heat and A/C are highly recommended for both temperature and humidity control. Even if you insist on keeping the garage door moveable, insulating the door, walls, and ceiling (even just a minimal amount) and installing a window A/C unit will make all the difference in the world. Trust me, sweating in your garage in the Florida heat is not conducive to great modeling.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
BuggymanOK.. let me push that a little further, Wouldn't the "Uncondition" of the air wack hovac on the System, like rusting the tracks or something like that?
Not necessarily. Nickle-silver rail wouldn't rust. As long as you allow a few small gaps for rail expansion in high heat, it would be fine. In an unsealed garage, dust and dirt are more likely to be a problem.
A couple of additional thoughts:
The viability of modular or sectional design for a relatively small layout (your space in HO) involves a series of trade-offs. First, the reasons and goals for using modular or sectional design instead of and integrated layout design should be thought out and kept in a prioritized order when planning.
One reason for modular layouts is to play as part of a larger layout when assembled at a meet or large space. Interface standards have to be enforced so that everybody's modules will work with each others'. Your module simply has to meet the designated standards to play. Those standards inevitably conflict with maximizing space utilization in a home layout. Which means that a module designed to play with others seldom works well as a stand-alone layout. The large radius curves, limited positions of track at the module edges, and module size restrictions coming from either the modular standards or transportabilty requirements all serve to enhance reliability and the experience at meets, but drastically limit a small home layout.
The next reason given for sectional/modular layouts is so that the layout can be easily moved. My personal thought is that those that believe this line haven't made very many moves, or really, really value their early modeling efforts, and never want to change anything. As one who has experienced many moves courtesy of Uncle Sam's Frequent Relocater Club, I have never found that the same layout would fit two consecutive houses/town houses/apartments. The situation and space is always different. Now, if your early efforts are comparable to John Allen's, then it might be worth adapting an old layout to a new space. But I've never had that problem.
Regardless of your reasons for a modular or sectional layout, keep in mind that successfully rejoining 2 sections together in a new location means that the number of tracks crossing the section boundary must be minimized - especially tracks crossing the boundary at other than a 90 degree angle and/or on curves. This requirement really takes a toll on track planning for small spaces. Perfect (or even close enough for reliable operation) mechanical alignment is very difficult to recreate a second time in a new location. Adjustable legs, and patience to properly adjust them all, are an essential in this world of imperfect floors. Wiring and benchwork must also be planned with more thought to the future move than would otherwise be required.
And if you never move, or decide to scrap the old layout after moving (the latter is more common than you would think), all the design limitations accepted, extra effort, and expense to make the layout moveable were wasted. Don't ask me how I know this.
as always, my thoughts and experiences, your choices
Hi Guys... sorry I haven't been back the last couple days, The one downfall of Florida weather is the back and forth Hot then Cold then Hot again is we all catch colds real easy. That means.. yept I've caught a cold, drives me nuts.
Update on the progress, The Wifey told me to go ahead and buy my laptop (ain't she sweet which was part one of my plan in this room. By getting the laptop, I dump the antiuqe Desktop computer and the computer desk.. that means more layout space.
I'll be back to drive you guys nuts in a few more days as I get to feeling better and more focus.
Mine's in the garage...
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
For reassembly allignment try tongue and groove plywood.
Phoebe VetFor reassembly allignment try tongue and groove plywood.
Hey Phoebe!
Love that layout, It's exactly what I had in mind for the room inside the house.
Got a couple question for you though.. What are the Yellow box with letters in them?
And how (roughly) big is that layout.
I seen you wrote in "hinged" joint, so I'm assumming that at the doorway?
Great Ideal on the tongue and groove, expecially if I do a modular wing somewhere on the layout.
You guys have a Great day.. I have my youngest Daughter and her son (my third Grandson) coming over today, time to spoil the kid and send him home.
The room is a two car attached garage. The blue rectangles along the walls are the doors. Small one on the bottom into the house, two at the top into the driveway. The room is 20x21. The layout is aprox 16x16.
The yellow rectangles are boards that hold the electronics. They are hinged at the top. They swing down to work on them and up out of sight under the layout the rest of the time.
The hinge and latch are a five foot swing gate that allows me access to the interior. I am too old for duck unders, and the large gate allows large objects in and out.
The grey tracks at the front edge are in the subway.