Small industry on a 4x6' layout? (first layout)

[the_fly_boy]

bladeslinger, thanks a ton for that information. I especially like the idea of the brick loading area  as it would fit into my limited space mixed-industrial setting quite well. I'll be looking into most of those options. All my track is layed but at the moment I only have 2 industries (both walthers kits, the large concrete grain elevator and the mill).

[bladeslinger]

If you want an idea for an industry that takes up very little space, how about this. 

Based on a real industry in Baldwin, GA that currently exists...

<>A tallow loading track.

<>It's very simple.  All you need is a short stub end track, a truck and a tank car.  There's no building at the prototype.  It is an industry that is affiliated with Fieldale Farms (feed mill).  They send tank trucks full of chicken fat to this spur, which is located off a main road in an open lot.  Just a little dirt road from the main road to the spur track, and lots of weeds and rocks about.  The tanker truck pumps the chicken fat into the tank cars, and they are left there until full, then a local switcher picks up the loaded cars and sets out new empties.  Generally there will be one or two cars on this track at a time.  It could easily be modelled as one in and one out on a small layout.  

Similarly, up the road in Cornelia, Ga there is a plastics unloading track next to the old depot building.  It holds up to 5 cars on the spot, is stub end as well.  Trucks come down a dirt road beside that track and pump plastic out of the cars for delivery a local industry that apparently doesn't have rail access.  

I'm not sure how protoypical these two industries would be to a 1950's era layout, but I'm sure this might give you some idea.

<><><>Another industry you might consider is a brick yard.  You wouldn't need much for this either.  The main thing you'd need would be a loading ramp (concrete, not wooden...because of the weight of bricks being unloaded).  A company called Model Railstuff sells HO scale models of palletized bricks and blocks which would look great as part of the scene, they come 4 pallets to a package, so you'd probably want to get atleast 8 or 10 packs so you could fill your brick yard up to a believable level.  You could get some chain link fencing to surround the industry, and perhaps a small office building...doesn't have to be very big at all, just enough to house a desk or two and a few filing cabinets and such for the employees.  Add a forklift or two to the scene and you've got a compact yet believable industry.  Not much space at all.  A short stub track that could hold one or two box cars.

Walthers makes a good propane distributor (Central Gas & Supply), which could be worked in most anywhere on a small layout.  Simple stub track to hold one or two tank cars, plus the kit itself, and a few odds and ends added like local delivery propane trucks, and some small consumer propane tanks added to the scene to complete it.

Of course, there's the old standby, a team track that could literally receive most any kind of cars.  Add a loading ramp, perhaps an overhead crane (for unloading out of gondolas and such), and maybe a  small office building, or just put this scene next to a railroad depot. You could unload most anything here.  Box cars, Flat Cars, Covered Hoppers, Tank Cars, Gondolas, etc.

[the_fly_boy]

Purchased all the track and switches I need.. hopefully the lumber is tomorrow so I can start construction. Thanks all for the ideas, I'll let you know how it turned out.

[BRJN]

Have you tried looking in a phone book for potential industries?

How about checking the local Chamber of Commerce if they have really old promotional material?

I found a civic promotional book from 1907 - I live near a VERY good public library - and simply listed off every company that bought an ad, was mentioned in an article, or had somebody on the membership roster.  Some possibilities:

Trolley company, typewriter maker, Frigifax (freezers), book printer, specialty steel molder, bakery, wholesale grocer, house construction, dredges, sailboat builder.

In the middle of the 4x6 loop, you can buy a Merchants Row kit and lable the buildings for a number of customers who would need a freighthouse or LCL service or a team track, rather than whole cars delivered to their back door

[the_fly_boy]

In stead of doing the traditional oval layout, have you ever thought of cutting the 4X6 in half and doing a switching puzzle layout?  I live in an apartment without much room and have a Modified Time Saver layout.  This plan along with several others were included in the 2003 Model Railroad Planning Annual issue.  I have really enjoyed the layout (HO Scale) had have not been disapointed in my choice.

 Good Luck!

Have a look at the post above yours  

[GTW95]

In stead of doing the traditional oval layout, have you ever thought of cutting the 4X6 in half and doing a switching puzzle layout?  I live in an apartment without much room and have a Modified Time Saver layout.  This plan along with several others were included in the 2003 Model Railroad Planning Annual issue.  I have really enjoyed the layout (HO Scale) had have not been disapointed in my choice.

 Good Luck!

[the_fly_boy]

 Anyways - the OP seems to want to build a fairly smallish switching layout and is looking at Scot Osterweil's "Highland Park" layout, which is a variety of Linn Wescott's "Switchman's nightmare".

 He might also want to have a look e.g. at Peter White's Tenderfoot Industrial Railroad - a 10 foot long by 18" deep layout that e.g adds some staging and easily could be extended to a 12 or 14 foot long around the corner switching layout by adding a 2-4 foot curved section between the 6th and 7th foot of the original plan below:

http://members.aol.com/PWhiteMR/tenderfoot.html

  Or Byron Henderson's (cuyama on this forum) prototype based H0 layout Pacific Electric's Orphan Branch, which has a fooprint that would fit pretty good in corner space he has available:

 There are lots of possible solutions both in island style and shelf style layouts. Guess it is time for the OP to start thinking about where, when and what he wants to model.

 Grin,
 Stein 

 Still looking at Osterweil's layout. It's probably the one I'm going to build. It seems to offer the best compromise of size, operation, portability, and cost. It's easily expandable in the future as well.

As for period, etc. I was originally going to do a fictitious branch line of the Canadian Pacific set in the early to mid 1950's. Though with this layout since I'm not going to be using any of my steam equipment I may just do it a decade or two later. Industries available will be the primary deciding factor on period.

[steinjr]

sj:

Okay, Stein, I took your challenge...sort of. I didn't design a 4x6. I took a 3x4 with 15" radius curves that I had laying around and stuck 18" radius curves into it, which made it a 4x5. I know this radius isn't what was asked for, but the way I see it, the operational difference from 18 to 20 is so minimal that we might as well stick with the common radius.

 But which challenge is it that you are taking ?

sj:

Well, you did mention a w h i l e back in the thread that I was welcome to try and design a 4x6 with industrial spurs, so that's (roughly) what I did.

 Now I understand what you meant. Guess we just misunderstood each other. I had meant to ask you to demonstrate how it would be "far easier" to put industry tracks into the center of a 4x6 than it was to add industry tracks on fairly narrow shelves - say a 18" deep or 12" deep shelf

 

Obviously, I can't fit as much as you have on your own plan, but your own is about twice as big as a 4x5, so it's not exactly apples to apples, is it?

 Guess it depends on why you are comparing two alternate solutions.

 If you are comparing what will fit into a given room, you can e.g. for my layout room choose between a 24 square foot 4x6 or 32 square foot 4x8 that won't fit and a 42 square foot (if I did my math right) 9-24" deep around-the-walls shelf layout that will work in the available room

 Anyways - the OP seems to want to build a fairly smallish switching layout and is looking at Scot Osterweil's "Highland Park" layout, which is a variety of Linn Wescott's "Switchman's nightmare".

 He might also want to have a look e.g. at Peter White's Tenderfoot Industrial Railroad - a 10 foot long by 18" deep layout that e.g adds some staging and easily could be extended to a 12 or 14 foot long around the corner switching layout by adding a 2-4 foot curved section between the 6th and 7th foot of the original plan below:

http://members.aol.com/PWhiteMR/tenderfoot.html

  Or Byron Henderson's (cuyama on this forum) prototype based H0 layout Pacific Electric's Orphan Branch, which has a fooprint that would fit pretty good in corner space he has available:

 There are lots of possible solutions both in island style and shelf style layouts. Guess it is time for the OP to start thinking about where, when and what he wants to model.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[Autobus Prime]

sj:

Okay, Stein, I took your challenge...sort of. I didn't design a 4x6. I took a 3x4 with 15" radius curves that I had laying around and stuck 18" radius curves into it, which made it a 4x5. I know this radius isn't what was asked for, but the way I see it, the operational difference from 18 to 20 is so minimal that we might as well stick with the common radius.

 But which challenge is it that you are taking ?

sj:

Well, you did mention a w h i l e back in the thread that I was welcome to try and design a 4x6 with industrial spurs, so that's (roughly) what I did. It's not designed for your space, but for the OP's. Of course I realize that 4' in your space would crowd the room. I did the L-shape to show how the same basic plan could be opened up and placed on shelves. This can often be done with table plans, or shelf plans can be bent and placed on a table. The famous Inglenook Sidings plan was originally part of a small continuous-run oval, IIRC.

Obviously, I can't fit as much as you have on your own plan, but your own is about twice as big as a 4x5, so it's not exactly apples to apples, is it?
The island layouts you posted are interesting. I've seen RRT's pictured here before. None would suit me perfectly as it is, but that's how this stuff always is, and they all have some good features, and some I might change. I don't like backdrop-type scene dividers, for instance. I'd rather use a scenic feature, like the river and pond in the 4x5 plan. The feature doesn't even have to physically screen one scene from the other; it just has to provide some sense of separation.
You're right that my 4x5 plan has only one facing spur, the interchange track. MY 4x8, which has four relatively long spurs and a three-track yard, is like this too. In fact, the interchange track is also trailing, and the only facing spur is for a turntable. In practice, this hasn't been a problem at all. I think I have more fun switching and shuffling cars to their destinations without the obnoxious need to run around them all the time. The Inglenook Sidings plan is a lot of fun, and it's nothing but three trailing spurs.

[MStLfan]

I have been leafing through the book 48 top notch track plans again. It has some worthwile plans.

One interesting is the BTR RR by Art Curren, the Break The Rules railroad, page 38. In a 5'x9' space he managed to cram 18 (!) industries...

Tonight I visit my sister, I'll try to get her to scan a few plans for me so I can post them here (note to self, buy a new printer/scanner). Even in 4'x6' there is more possible than one realises. It does depend on the compromises one is willing to make though.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

Now that your room is clear I want to point out another possibility.

Check Kalmbachs 48 Top notch track plans. On page 68 is the article titled A trackplan to share a familyroom or bedroom, the Spokane, Pasco and Wallace by Kenneth Gentili (sorry no scanning capability right now).

It makes clever use of two 4'x8' sheets of plywood. Making for two shelves forming a corner and a peninsula jutting into the room from the corner. It gives you both worlds, shelves for switching and a peninsula for running trains around and around with industry on the inside. It seems that it can be shortened if necessary. And remember, you can use the room in front of the door so long as that part of the shelf is removable and the door not frequently used during operating traintime (ditto for the window but that part is less critical).

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 Hmm - don't have the book, but from your description it may be somewhat similar in basic shape to Byron Henderson's N scale Santa Maria Valley RR (SMVRR) - the one where he introduced X-factor staging.

 Layout plan for SMVRR can be seen here: http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsvc2/id24.html

 Maybe possible to get some inspiration from if thinking about a track plan with corner island w/shelf wings along the walls ? The actual track and scenery plan of course depends on what one is modelling - urban, rural, granger country, maine two footer, colorado mining or whatever.

 Another possible shape for a corner layout with continuous run would be the "dogbone" or "butterfly" shaped layout - narrow in the corner, wider on the sides.

 Smile,
 Stein

Hey Stein!

That was exactly what I meant with a peninsula from the corner and shelves. This illustrates it perfectly, thanks.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[steinjr]

sj:

Okay, Stein, I took your challenge...sort of. I didn't design a 4x6. I took a 3x4 with 15" radius curves that I had laying around and stuck 18" radius curves into it, which made it a 4x5. I know this radius isn't what was asked for, but the way I see it, the operational difference from 18 to 20 is so minimal that we might as well stick with the common radius.

 But which challenge is it that you are taking ? And what are you trying to illustrate ?

 The 4x5 you have designed here will not work very well into a room that is 6 1/2 by 11 1/2 foot like the one I have my layout in. Any 4 foot wide island style layout would still demand more aisle space than what would be easily available in a 6 1/2 foot wide room.

 One of course could put the layout on wheels and go on the short end and wrestle it back and forth from wall to wall to squeeze in along one or the other side of the layout, but it would be a pain.

 And necessiate that the layout have the room to itself pretty much - you couldn't even have much in the way of storages shelves on the walls, since you would bonk your head on the shelves as you worked in the 2 1/2 foot wide aisle between the island layout and the wall  along the longest side of the layout.

 Are you trying to illustrate that a shelf style layout which doesn't form a closed donut shape and doesn't have turnback blobs at the ends won't have continuous run ?

 That is pretty obvious - to have continuous run (unless you are running a tram line in pendulum service) you need a closed loop of some kind - either one you look in on from outside the loop (ie on an island style layout) or one you look out at from inside the loop (ie an around the wall shelf style layout or donut style layout with a central operators pit).

 One obviously could take the 8x10 space one would use for a 4x8 island layout and make a donut shaped layout where you look out at the scenes instead of looking in at the layout.

 Advantage of a donut style: allows wider curves, allows longer spurs/sidings/passing tracks, allows landscapes up agains the walls (or backdrops attached along outside of layout) - making each section a visually separate scene. If the donut runs along the walls it easily allows storage shelves above and below layout.

 Disadvantages of donut style - you need a duckunder or a gate or a removable section or some such device to get into the central pit, and if you build it in a part of a bigger room (as opposed to building it around the walls of a smaller room, you lose the dual use of outside aisles to reach other things in the room.

  Are you trying to illustrate that one can fit industries into an island style layout ? Of course that is possible. There must be thousands of 4x8 and 5x9 plans published - and certainly many dozens which don't look too bad industry track wise.

 Like this one - my interpretation of Don Mitchell's "The Central Belt Line" from Model Railroad Planning 1999 (Issue theme: 5x9 foot track plans) - I've squuezed it into a 4x9 - probably pushing it a little too much in width: 

 

  Central ideas : double sided building flats as a central divider, visually dividing the layout into two different scenes, point to point visual layout, but using staging underneath to create  continuous run option.

 Or this one:

 

 Forum poster RRTrainman's 4x8 layout with a dual loop along the outside and industries in the center of a 4x8 layout. The dual loops with crossovers located like they are makes it easy both to simulate a double track mainline and a using the two loops as a twice around. Creative use of a runaround in the industrial center of the 4x8.

 There are many ways of doing this, by all means. I am not at all insisting that a shelf layout is the only thing that works under all circumstances.

  But if I was going to make a 4 foot wide island style layout for the area the OP has here, I probably would have tried to stretch it to maybe a 4x8 or 4x9 layout rather than a 4x6 and done something like one of the two layouts above rather than a single loop around with three sidings that can be served in only one direction and one siding that can be served in the other direction.

 Or maybe something like Linda Sand's "One plan, three options" plan from MRP 2002, in my interpretation something like this:

 Quite a few operational possibilities here:

 http://home.online.no/~steinjr/trains/modelling/loopy/ops/session.html

 No matter what style and size layout he ends up with, I hope the original poster in this thread doesn't get scared off by us debating some different options back and forth.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

 

[steinjr]

Now that your room is clear I want to point out another possibility.

Check Kalmbachs 48 Top notch track plans. On page 68 is the article titled A trackplan to share a familyroom or bedroom, the Spokane, Pasco and Wallace by Kenneth Gentili (sorry no scanning capability right now).

It makes clever use of two 4'x8' sheets of plywood. Making for two shelves forming a corner and a peninsula jutting into the room from the corner. It gives you both worlds, shelves for switching and a peninsula for running trains around and around with industry on the inside. It seems that it can be shortened if necessary. And remember, you can use the room in front of the door so long as that part of the shelf is removable and the door not frequently used during operating traintime (ditto for the window but that part is less critical).

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 Hmm - don't have the book, but from your description it may be somewhat similar in basic shape to Byron Henderson's N scale Santa Maria Valley RR (SMVRR) - the one where he introduced X-factor staging.

 Layout plan for SMVRR can be seen here: http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsvc2/id24.html

 Maybe possible to get some inspiration from if thinking about a track plan with corner island w/shelf wings along the walls ? The actual track and scenery plan of course depends on what one is modelling - urban, rural, granger country, maine two footer, colorado mining or whatever.

 Another possible shape for a corner layout with continuous run would be the "dogbone" or "butterfly" shaped layout - narrow in the corner, wider on the sides.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[pathvet9]

Thanks for the advice Byron. I do need to think more ....... or think less and work more.

As you could tell, I am having a hard time visualizing/verbalizing what I think I want. 

[MStLfan]

Now that your room is clear I want to point out another possibility.

Check Kalmbachs 48 Top notch track plans. On page 68 is the article titled A trackplan to share a familyroom or bedroom, the Spokane, Pasco and Wallace by Kenneth Gentili (sorry no scanning capability right now).

It makes clever use of two 4'x8' sheets of plywood. Making for two shelves forming a corner and a peninsula jutting into the room from the corner. It gives you both worlds, shelves for switching and a peninsula for running trains around and around with industry on the inside. It seems that it can be shortened if necessary. And remember, you can use the room in front of the door so long as that part of the shelf is removable and the door not frequently used during operating traintime (ditto for the window but that part is less critical).

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Autobus Prime]

sj:

Okay, Stein, I took your challenge...sort of. I didn't design a 4x6. I took a 3x4 with 15" radius curves that I had laying around and stuck 18" radius curves into it, which made it a 4x5. I know this radius isn't what was asked for, but the way I see it, the operational difference from 18 to 20 is so minimal that we might as well stick with the common radius.



I dressed it up as a rural short line something like the Narragansett Pier, connecting a small dock to a single important industry, with minor local business along the way. I picture the mill as representative of a fairly large textile mill or widget factory (I suggest string or zippers) that would receive lots of coal from the pier to run its machinery, formerly wholly waterpowered. Perhaps the pond still runs a turbine; perhaps the tailrace is weedy and the water is only used for fishing and ice harvesting. Ice is hauled up, in winter, on an elevator chain across the road. The stub at top right, the only facing track in the plan, is an interchange,to a fiddle yard or future extension. Passenger traffic would include mill workers from the town, hauled in an old combine or coach, every shift change, and through cars of the Class 1 connecting road to the pier...the station would serve both the rail and steamship line. Occasionally the factory might send a boxcar to the interchange or the pier, or originate a load of scrap; milk and livestock would also be hauled.

Of course, something more urban is possible. This is just one idea. I think it would provide interest through contrasts - the big (shorty :) ) heavyweight mainline cars next to the creaky old combine, the towering stone mill behind the unassuming stock pen, milk shed, and ice house, and the evidence of former waterpower next to a newer brick powerhouse.

Just for fun, here's the same plan, opened up and converted to a 5 1/2' x 5 1/2' L-shape, using the same square footage. It's narrower, which might be better in some situations, although the gain is only about 3' x 3' in the room middle. The continuous run is lost, which may not be a problem, although I know I'd miss it. I'd probably use it to build route mileage by running few circuits between stations. It's amazing how well this works on a subconscious level.

Because there is no longer an oval to use as a runaround, I added a couple of switches and made one. I also added a second track on the pier, to make up for the lack of a mainline there to shuffle cars on.





(EDIT: Brain bug. I should have made it a 6x6 L for the same square footage. Mentally extend it 6" at each end. )

[the_fly_boy]

Ok, thought I would do up a better drawing of the room I have to work with here, since it's not a full room (rather, part of a room). Sorry I wasn't very clear with my poor ASCII art skills.

 This is on one side of a living room/dining room. I can't extend it out one way beyond 8', and an "around the outside" seems impractical, considering it won't be going around the outside of a room.

The other things to consider is, as I said, I'm trying to keep the costs down. While I of course don't need to build a fair sized layout all at once, I do need to build at the very least a small section that offers some modelling and operational use. My other problem is I may be moving out of the city in a 8-12 months when I'm done college, so a larger layout is not really a good option unless it can be built to be easily disassembled (which, I'm afriad, probably offsets the cost issue). It would be nice if I had the luxury to build an open-benchwork unit, but I don't imagine those are overly portable.

Anyways, I'm more and more liking the idea of the shelf layout. A 2x6 version of Scot Osterweil's Highland Terminal (the one based on Linn Westcott's Switchman's Nightmare) looks like it offers me the best compromise of size, cost, and operation, and could easily be modified for expansion at a later date. While I wouldn't mind a 4x6 with continious run, I'm not convinced it would have the same operational value as a shelf.

I will say, I never thought there was this much to layout design. Should have known better of course.  

[steinjr]

sj:

That's a great layout you have there.  I'll have to concede the point in your case.  There's no way I'd get all that on an island in a 6 1/2 foot wide room.  Still, the thing that really makes your plan, besides ingenuity, is that nice, roomy 2 1/2 x 11 1/2 foot shelf at the top, which gives you some real estate for trackwork, something that might be missed on a much shorter plan. 

 That top shelf is 2 feet deep by 10 feet long (from the chimney to the opposite wall). If I had dropped the lowermost of the three yard tracks (and river road), I could have fit it into a shelf 10 feet long by 18" deep, if I had added a triangle in each corner for the curve. 

 Here is the layout with the depths marked off :

  

 

I guess width isn't always needed, if a modeler is happy with modeling the track and hinting at the scenery (which can be fun, too, although I personally don't prefer this method.)

Maybe I'll take a whack at 20"R on a 4x6. Might be tough.

Still, if we traded layouts, neither of us would be happy.  My workbench would be crowded, and you'd only have a crowded space to work in alongside my 4x8.  I suppose there is no single solution, and that goes for islands as well as shelves. 

 I can certainly agree about that. I am not saying that you cannot make a good looking layout on a 4x6. I am just saying that it is not all that hard to work in sidings and tracks on a shelf layout - real railroads, after all, tend to have a fairly narrow right-of-way.

 Like that corner you mentioned on the rough sketch for flyboy - scene 1. You want a passing siding and some scenery there ?

 How about something like this:

  

 

Now, we could trade workbenches, I think, and the major effect would be some moderate increase in tool-finding difficulty.  Mine and yours seem to look just about the same. (Yours is neater.)

 Now, I am not so sure mine is neater, but messy workbenches and model railroading often belong together

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[Autobus Prime]

sj:

That's a great layout you have there.  I'll have to concede the point in your case.  There's no way I'd get all that on an island in a 6 1/2 foot wide room.  Still, the thing that really makes your plan, besides ingenuity, is that nice, roomy 2 1/2 x 11 1/2 foot shelf at the top, which gives you some real estate for trackwork, something that might be missed on a much shorter plan.  I guess width isn't always needed, if a modeler is happy with modeling the track and hinting at the scenery (which can be fun, too, although I personally don't prefer this method.)

Maybe I'll take a whack at 20"R on a 4x6. Might be tough.

Still, if we traded layouts, neither of us would be happy.  My workbench would be crowded, and you'd only have a crowded space to work in alongside my 4x8.  I suppose there is no single solution, and that goes for islands as well as shelves. 

Now, we could trade workbenches, I think, and the major effect would be some moderate increase in tool-finding difficulty.  Mine and yours seem to look just about the same. (Yours is neater.)

[steinjr]

sj:

There's one thing that should be noted about the wall-hugging plan, however. It's a lot easier to work track into the middle of an island plan, which can all be benchwork, than into the narrow shelves of a minimum-sized wall-hugger. Looking at scene #1 and scene #2, track spurs are going to have to come off the outside to have much usable length, and in scene 1 it might be difficult to fit in more than one switch on the main. Adding a passing track might take up most of the usable space in scene 2 and 3. Switches become a devilish problem when you have narrow shelves mostly taken up by curves.

 Could be. Here is a shelf layout set in a 6 1/2 x 11 1/2 foot room. 

 

 

 Couple of pix:

  

  

  

  

 

  Did I mention that the room above and below the layout is in full use for other things ? 

 

 You are very welcome to present an alternative solution showing how you get much more industry tracks from a 4x6 with using 20" curves

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[cuyama]

Cuyama - I do not have the Kalmbach book and you suggest that most of it won't work but I am intrigued by the switchman's nightmare. I think it would make a very workable small yard with #5 turnouts as I only have 18" of shelf width.

My question relates to how to finish the ends of this yard? I kind of wanted to create a wye at the end of the yard and the other end needs to feed into a main line on a curve. And I am trying to stay within 22" radius as I have some 6-axle locos.

The Westcott design is pretty efficient for the 1X6 foot space, but I'm not sure it's the best solution for what you are describing. There are some compormises to make it self-contained that wouldn't be necessary in a larger space.

Probably your best bet would be to start a new thread posting some sketches of what you are trying to accomplish. There are a number of folks who will likely have good ideas for you.

Byron

[Autobus Prime]

sj:

There's one thing that should be noted about the wall-hugging plan, however. It's a lot easier to work track into the middle of an island plan, which can all be benchwork, than into the narrow shelves of a minimum-sized wall-hugger. Looking at scene #1 and scene #2, track spurs are going to have to come off the outside to have much usable length, and in scene 1 it might be difficult to fit in more than one switch on the main. Adding a passing track might take up most of the usable space in scene 2 and 3. Switches become a devilish problem when you have narrow shelves mostly taken up by curves.

I noticed this when I entered Chip's 10x12 layout contest. The area seemed big, but was surprisingly restrictive.

I'd probably agree that a wall-hugging shelf with no turnbacks could be better than a 6 x 10 in a 10x12 room, even with the duckunder, but when the size goes down, it's harder for me to see the advantage of using the walls, when you start putting actual track on boards.

And here I go drifting off topic again. :)

[steinjr]

Personally, I like the first one better. It doesn't have as much track or industries, but the second one is really starved for space on a 6' shelf

 Quick question - if you really had room for a 4x6 in the room where you wanted your layout, it really means that you had more than 6 feet of length - since you would have needed to access both long sides of a 4 foot wide island, and thus would have needed at least a 2" wide corridor along one of the short ends to squeeze past the table to the other side.

 Maybe you should start by showing us the room you have (showing where door and windows and objects that cannot be moved are, so one can determine if you have room for a 6x2, or a  8x2, or a 10x2 (perhaps curving around a corner) - adding two or four feet to a six foot long layout is a pretty significant increase in layout space.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

 The area of the room it is going in is about 8' square. One end is going against a wall, the other end stops just shy of a door, hence I can't do any overhang, but I can stand there to operate the layout. My other reasons for wanting a smaller layout is cost (I don't have the money do drop on a huge layout), and I'm going to be moving in 8-12 months so it's impractical to build a larger layout. 4x6-ish is a lot easier to transport.

ROOM

|------[ window ]----

|      <- 8' ->

|8'

| 

( <- doorway 

4x6 layout in 8x8 room - 2' aisles on 3 sides to reach - 20" radius curves, mainline length one loop about 14 feet, will see entire layout as one scene at the same time (unless you put a center divider down the length of the table, hard to use room for anything else besides layout, must be built, maintained and transported as one large object.

 Shelf layout around room, plenty of floor space in middle of room, 26" radius curves, mainline length one loop about 22 feet, visually divided into three or four scenes, can be built, maintained and moved as smaller sections. Need not all be built at the same time, sections can be switched with new sections when you get tired of them.

 

 I know which style layout I prefer - your mileage may vary. 

 

Grin,
Stein

 

[MStLfan]

 Quick question - if you really had room for a 4x6 in the room where you wanted your layout, it really means that you had more than 6 feet of length - since you would have needed to access both long sides of a 4 foot wide island, and thus would have needed at least a 2" wide corridor along one of the short ends to squeeze past the table to the other side.

 Maybe you should start by showing us the room you have (showing where door and windows and objects that cannot be moved are, so one can determine if you have room for a 6x2, or a  8x2, or a 10x2 (perhaps curving around a corner) - adding two or four feet to a six foot long layout is a pretty significant increase in layout space.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

 The area of the room it is going in is about 8' square. One end is going against a wall, the other end stops just shy of a door, hence I can't do any overhang, but I can stand there to operate the layout. My other reasons for wanting a smaller layout is cost (I don't have the money do drop on a huge layout), and I'm going to be moving in 8-12 months so it's impractical to build a larger layout. 4x6-ish is a lot easier to transport.

ROOM

|------[ window ]----

|      <- 8' ->

|8'

| 

( <- doorway 

So, if I see it correctly, you can basically chop an 4'x8' in two lenghtwise and have one section of 2'x8' (for transportation purposes that would be two 2'x4') on one wall and another on the second wall with one unscenicked bridge between.

If you want to you can bring it out to another room or house or show and bolt the two halves together for continous running if you want.

4'x6' chopped down lenghtwise would also work and when time, space and funds allow you can always build additional sections to fit between existing ones.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[the_fly_boy]

Personally, I like the first one better. It doesn't have as much track or industries, but the second one is really starved for space on a 6' shelf

 Quick question - if you really had room for a 4x6 in the room where you wanted your layout, it really means that you had more than 6 feet of length - since you would have needed to access both long sides of a 4 foot wide island, and thus would have needed at least a 2" wide corridor along one of the short ends to squeeze past the table to the other side.

 Maybe you should start by showing us the room you have (showing where door and windows and objects that cannot be moved are, so one can determine if you have room for a 6x2, or a  8x2, or a 10x2 (perhaps curving around a corner) - adding two or four feet to a six foot long layout is a pretty significant increase in layout space.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

 The area of the room it is going in is about 8' square. One end is going against a wall, the other end stops just shy of a door, hence I can't do any overhang, but I can stand there to operate the layout. My other reasons for wanting a smaller layout is cost (I don't have the money do drop on a huge layout), and I'm going to be moving in 8-12 months so it's impractical to build a larger layout. 4x6-ish is a lot easier to transport.

ROOM

|------[ window ]----

|      <- 8' ->

|8'

| 

( <- doorway 

[Autobus Prime]

Let me step away from all the Evil Plywood Tales for a while. I wish we could give that a rest and just relax for a while. That argument totally harshes the mellow..

If you had read the thread, you would have seen that some of us posted both 4X6 continuous run and shelf layout suggestions. The OP decided he'd like to look at shelf layouts along with the 4X6 oval.

 

c:

I did read the thread. I just think that sometimes people get too hung up on shelves. I have found that I enjoy my 4x8 more than I enjoyed the shelf switcher I had once (when I'm not, um, enjoying a complete rebuild of my front porch) I liked to switch, but I couldn't do anything else. Now I can switch, and do lots of other things.

[steinjr]

Personally, I like the first one better. It doesn't have as much track or industries, but the second one is really starved for space on a 6' shelf

 Quick question - if you really had room for a 4x6 in the room where you wanted your layout, it really means that you had more than 6 feet of length - since you would have needed to access both long sides of a 4 foot wide island, and thus would have needed at least a 2" wide corridor along one of the short ends to squeeze past the table to the other side.

 Maybe you should start by showing us the room you have (showing where door and windows and objects that cannot be moved are, so one can determine if you have room for a 6x2, or a  8x2, or a 10x2 (perhaps curving around a corner) - adding two or four feet to a six foot long layout is a pretty significant increase in layout space.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[pathvet9]

Cuyama - I do not have the Kalmbach book and you suggest that most of it won't work but I am intrigued by the switchman's nightmare. I think it would make a very workable small yard with #5 turnouts as I only have 18" of shelf width.

My question relates to how to finish the ends of this yard? I kind of wanted to create a wye at the end of the yard and the other end needs to feed into a main line on a curve. And I am trying to stay within 22" radius as I have some 6-axle locos.

I hope I am not presumingtoo much to ask you this?   

[cuyama]

I stumbled across this design here, and it looked like it offered quite a significant amount of operating potential in a small space. I'd be tempted to do it on a 2'x6' instead for a little more modelling room, but same idea.

Scott Osterweil's layout you linked to is derived from the Westcott design I keep suggesting.

You are right, Osterweil's layout would probably be a better operational choice than the other two you showed because it offers the opportunity for more complex operating patterns if you ever choose them.

On wider benchwork you'll have more room for industry modeling. One of the first things I would do on the Osterweil plan is to change the track at the upper left from an industry track back to the switch lead of Westcott's design to avoid a pesky situation where you have to empty one industry to switch another. But that's just me. It would be relatively easy, especially with more depth, to keep the switch lead and add back an industry track.

Best of luck.

Byron
Model RR Blog