I guess I lost track of the article for a few days,but, THATS IT!!! the article on Nicollett ave.I guess thats why I couldn't remember where I'd seen it. The article dealt specifically with urban Minneapolis. I worked in St. Paul back in '71' and so that article held my interest. One of the reasons I didn't mention Sellios as his work is focussed on inner city railroads in the 30s and Stein was looking for Minneapolis in the 50s and 60s. A whole 'nother scene.
For a foreigner Jon Grant has got a real handle on american urban railroading BILL
I'll start with a question. Why is it that most urban MR's don't have any sharp curves of around 15 degree radius? I have used 13 and 14 with no trouble on a previous RR and will be again as things progress.
More references: From Model Railroader, April 1980, San Francisco Belt Line and in the same issue The Alameda Belt Line. Both of these were focused on the water fronts, but included a fair amount of regular industrial switching.
From Railmodel Journal, Oct 93, Water front switching but with some very intriging street running to get to the docks.
Also from the same mag: Sept 2000, CNR Wayfreight at Grand River, Great model photos;
June 92, City Scenes, 2 1/2 x 6 1/2 HO city with a back drop made of structures down the center. A ot of RR and city packed into a small area, with a discusion on what he found to be possible.
Last is another photo story. July 05, Operations in South Pittsburgh on the PRR's Whitehall Branch
This is a great thread. Thanks for starting it.
Jack
I too grew up in the 'burbs and I am looking to model the industrial scenes of Long Island city or northern NJ together with commuter rail. I am trying to find a good viaduct solution for an elevated section of track-thing the #7 subway line snaking through the buildings of LIC. There is a MicroEngineering model that is a real pain to build but I have not seen anything else that serves as a good example of what I want to model. scratch building something like that may be beyond my abilities right now. any ideas? thanks
Are you sure it's not Cyano Acrylate, the popular glue?
Or maybe the third letter of the Canadian alphabet ( C, eh? )
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
that Ca means circa not california
You guys have supplied both inspiration and jealousy . I've not had a layout for nearly 20 years but am planning one now. My modelling skills leave much to be desired, but as has been stated in numerous threads, "It's supposed to be fun". And I am having a blast planning and building rolling stock, structures and mini-scenes to place on the layout, once started.
My first pike (back in 1957) was based on the original John Allen road, and this one will have elements of that famous plan, but will only be part of it. I've chosen the Cadiz (Ky) RR and the area around Cadiz Ky in the early to mid 1950's for this attempt, but expanded it by a lot of miles (the 1:1 RR was only 10.3 miles long). The fun of building from an actual prototype brings to the hobby a lot of elements, such as photo searches for building styles and actual businesses from the time period you are working in. The biggest help has been the internet which, when I first started, wasn't yet invented.
This thread has given me a kick to get trains running as soon as possible, and I thank y'all for that.
Gary
I've read all the replys and haven't come across George Selios' F&SM...
He has to be one of the pioneers in huge cityscapes although I understand he is concentrating on a bit of rural scenery lately.
http://www.horailroad.com/fsm/fsmlayout0.html
George has been an inspiration for me in my urban scenes although I can't seem to master his knack for getting that "run-down" look!
ED
I have many photos of my LIRR Montauk Branch if you care to see them
Nicholas Kalis
703 917-6632
I also built a layout featured on the September 2007 cover of RMC
This is a great thread. Thank you very much.
Bob
Photobucket Albums:NPBL - 2008 The BeginningNPBL - 2009 Phase INPBL - 2010 Downtown
REALISTIC HOPPER.
The "Nicollet Avenue" layout from Model Railroad Planning was based on Progressive Rail's former Minneapolis Northfield and Southern "high line", about 8-9 miles south of downtown in the suburb of Richfield MN. There were farms directly along side the tracks in Richfield through 1970, it's neither urban nor industrial.
You can learn a lot from modellers modelling urban areas in the east like New York, Philadelphia, or in Chicago or other areas, but keep in mind Minneapolis wasn't exactly like any of them...heck, it's not even that much like St.Paul 10 miles away. Not many downtowns are located alongside a waterfall!! (St.Anthony Falls provided the power for running the flour mills.)
Plus "urban renewal" of the sixties really changed Minneapolis. The city that existed in 1958 was pretty much gone by 1970, block after block of old brick buildings were torn down, some for new buildings, some just sat as parking lots for years. Some of the area's finest buildings (including the Metropolitan, once called the finest building west of the Mississippi) were demolished. So any pictures etc. taken after the early/mid-sixties may not really help that much in modelling 1960. The Mill District itself didn't change that much, but many of the buildings surrounding it were torn down.
Other books you may find usefull are:
Lost Twin Cities by Larry Millett
Twin Cities by Trolley
Minneapolis and the Age of Railways
The Mill District was served by the Minneapolis and St.Louis Ry, so any books on that railroad would probably be helpful. 1960 was the year the M-St.L was purchased by the Chicago and NorthWestern, so if that's the year you're modelling you'd probably see some of both railroad's engines. You can stock up on those ALCO RS-1's the M-St.L had, each in it's own unique paint scheme!!
rekleinI actually went through my collection of MRs and physically looked at each one for the article. Still didn't find the Minneapolis RR.
Hmm - wonder if Mpls layout you were thinking about be Linda Sand's "Industrial Switching in N and H0", from Model Railroad Planning 1998?
Those were two excellent L shaped urban industrial switching layout plans, set along Nicollet Avenue in Minneapolis.
Smile, Stein
This is excellent timing, I just decided to finish a long incomplete HOn30 microlayout with dense urban/town type scenery, this thread will come in handy.
BTW ...I am NOT the same Vic Smith mentioned on page one, just to get that on the table if any newbies get confusicated, he lives in the mid-west, I'm on the west coast. Seen his stuff published, it is very nice.
Anyway more questions likely to follow as I resurrect those long dead parts of my decades old past in HO. Vic
Have fun with your trains
Looks like you got a pretty good handle on these articles. I did'nt look at MRs search feature till this morning. I actually went through my collection of MRs and physically looked at each one for the article. Still didn't find the Minneapolis RR. I feel a little dumb. The advantage however was that I saw a lot of stuff that I didn't know I was looking for.I'm one of those persons who can't simply look up one word in a dictionary,I always get sidetraacked.
The Curren article is how you describe it,in that it is a peninsula with a track down either side with buildings in the middle as a view block.I'm not much of an urban modeler as I like te logging and mining scenes that I am familiar with in locale where I live. Painting all those window sill is daunting to me. BILL
rekleinQuite a few years back MR had a good article on Urban Minneapolis railroading or was it RMC? Anyways after an hour of looking I came up with articles by Earl Smallshaw. He has a ton of articles on the urban scene.
Quite a few years back MR had a good article on Urban Minneapolis railroading or was it RMC? Anyways after an hour of looking I came up with articles by Earl Smallshaw. He has a ton of articles on the urban scene.
Here is a search from http://index.mrmag.com that lists articles by Earl Smallshaw that has been cataloged:
http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=S&sort=A&output=3&cmdtext=SMALLSHAW%2C+EARL
Some of his articles:
The other side of town - city scenery Model Railroader, July 1992 page 70
Urban scenery - good article on all aspects of city scenes Model Railroader, July 1989 page 102
Modeling tenements Model Railroader, February 1989 page 76
Urban Modeling of a Small City Layout Design Journal/News, November 1987 page 31
reklein In May (* Bill Denton has a good article called Switching Chicagaos North Side.
In May (* Bill Denton has a good article called Switching Chicagaos North Side.
Switching Chicago's North Side Model Railroader, May 1998 page 58
Other articles by Bill Denton:
http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=S&sort=A&output=3&cmdtext=%22DENTON%2C+BILL%22
You can see some pictures of Bill Denton's Kingsbury Branch on the Urban Modellers SIG web page
http://www.trainsarefun.com/urbanmodeling/urban.htm
This web page contains links to several other great urban layouts (The Severna Park Model Railroad Club layout - featured in MR recently, Bill Denton's Kingsbury Branch, Jim Senese's Kansas City Terminal and several others).
reklein Jan 99 Art Currens article called a two faced industrial siding is a good one for space saving.
Jan 99 Art Currens article called a two faced industrial siding is a good one for space saving.
Haven't read that one - what's the basic concept ? Having buildings on a peninsula which look different on each side (ie so it looks like one business when viewed from one side of peninsula and another when looking from the other side of the peninsula), or having one track serve industries on both sides of the track, or something else ?
reklein Sept. 2000 MR has a good article on a Boston switching layout thats outstanding.
Sept. 2000 MR has a good article on a Boston switching layout thats outstanding.
That would be John Pryke's Union Terminal RR - a 4 part series on building it appeared in Model Railroader from September 2000 until December 2000.
The series eventually was expanded into an excellent book modelling city/urban scenes.
John Pryke: "Building City Scenery for Your Railroad".
A plan for a particularily interesting scene from this layout used to be available on Andrew Martin's web site http://andrews-trains.fotopic.net/p14832720.html.
Sadly, it appear like Andrew's web site is no more - it appears to have been parked some time during the last 6 months. John Pryke's book (and back issues of MR) are still very much with us.
Quite a few years back MR had a good article on Urban Minneapolis railroading or was it RMC? Anyways after an hour of looking I came up with articles by Earl Smallshaw. He has a ton of articles on the urban scene.In May (* Bill Denton has a good article called Switching Chicagaos North Side.Jan 99 Art Currens article called a two faced industrial siding is a good one for space saving.Sept.200 MR has a good article on a Boston switching layout thats outstanding. Thats all I could find so far. Even Furlow had an urban design. BILL
Great topic.
I for one have always thought an urban setting that begs to be modeled, is the "Flats" along the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland OH in the transition era. On the downtown side of the river were many small industries, businesses and warehouses that were served by rail along a narrow shelf on the river bank. On the opposite side of the river were many heavy industries including steel mills, and shipbuilders, all served by rail. And if you like to model bridges, the Flats had them. From river level draw and swing spans both road and rail, to towering spans that carried both roads and rails (under wire no less) across the river valley to the downtown area and Terminal Tower.
The Cleveland Public Library has a wide selection of historical photographs available for on-line viewing. http://cplorg.cdmhost.com/ I encourage all to take a look. Just type flats into the search box. I found these to be quite inspirational, and trust others here will do the same.
One of these days I will decide what I want to model, but the Cleveland Flats is definately on my top ten list.
Jim J.
I just wanted to say this a great thread. So much info and incredible layouts.
I highly recommend John Pryke's Building City Scenery book.
Currently, the majority of my urban railroading scenery is limited to larger industrial buildings...
But I do have the basics outlined for my town scene
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Hi Stein: Thanks for the update. It looks like that is going to be an impressive and interesting scene. The hardest part is figuring out what you want to accomplish, and you've certainly gotten that well in hand. I'm looking forward to seeing the completed area, I'm sure it will be great! Please keep up posted.
Grampys TrainsHi: Stein, I was wondering how your layout was coming along. It's looking good, so far. Will those tracks be street running?
Hi: Stein, I was wondering how your layout was coming along. It's looking good, so far. Will those tracks be street running?
Mmm - street running would have been cool, but I hadn't really planned to make this section street running - I was more envisioning something like several parallell RR tracks on a dedicated right of way, maybe with a dirt track for trucks and cars along the RR tracks.
Some prototype photos of ROW and roads from 1958 (I am shooting for about 1957 or so):
http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/image.cfm?imageid=180282
http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/image.cfm?imageid=180281
http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/image.cfm?imageid=180279
Here is a newer picture of the milling complex taken while I am working on fitting the new milling building in the front (it is just kept together with tape at the moment):
I know the picture is too dark, and that the grass and dirt track road still looks darn ugly - was just a quick experiment
Part of my intension is that there will be elevated enclosed walkways/conveyor belts across from the building flats along the wall to mill building in the foreground - one above where the tank car is in the last picture, one above where the reefer car is in the first picture.
Model railroad inspiration for the elevated walkways from forum regular poster Dr Wayne's layout:
http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/gallery/image.php?image_id=95
http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/gallery/image.php?image_id=85
But I also found some prototypical inspiration for elevated walkways in the milling district:
http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/image.cfm?imageid=79034http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/image.cfm?imageid=79253
http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/image.cfm?imageid=169996
Smile,Stein
hcc25rlI believe Steinjr was using "ca" to indicate circa, meaning around that time. (fomr Latin) Jimmy
I believe Steinjr was using "ca" to indicate circa, meaning around that time. (fomr Latin)
Jimmy
You believe correctly - as I wrote in my post from August 31st 2008 (ie over six months ago) in this thread :
steinjrAnd 60YOKID and Grampy - yep - I meant Minneapolis circa 1960, not Minneapolis, CA :-)
Anyone have any new pics of urban switching layouts ?
My layout is still very much a work in (slow) progress, and it looks downright ugly compared with the beauties further up in this thread, but here is a picture from a fairly urban part of my layout :-) :
A CMSt.P & O ("Omaha Road") GE 70-tonner comes down the mainline through the mill district in Minneapolis with a loaded reefer car for "New York Egg and Butter" a little down the line. To the left we see about 2/3rds of the 24 silos of the North Star Elevator and Mill Company.
Middle track runs into the Mill building (black cardboard place holder straight ahead). Tracks to the left goes off to Williams Hardware warehouse and to Hunt's Perfect Baking Powder Company (which may eventually turn into the flour shipping building for the North Star Elevator and Mill).
And here a link to a thread posted by forum regular markalan, describing his Portland Terminal Railroad, which is a far nice looking urban layout than my layout:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/140225/1562248.aspx
ROUTE ROCK!
MisterBeasley How many of our younger members know that the Dodgers, Giants and Yanks could get between their respective ballparks on the subway, lo these many years ago?
How many of our younger members know that the Dodgers, Giants and Yanks could get between their respective ballparks on the subway, lo these many years ago?
Probably even fewer know that Yankee Stadium and the Polo Grounds were on opposite sides of the Harlem River, less than a mile apart. You could see one ballpark from the other. I can't believe they are going to bring down Yankee Stadium. It should be named an historic landmark. And I grew up hating the Yankees.
Mark R. wrote:Vic Smith has been a long time favorite urban modeller of mine. His work has been featured in a few magazines over the years - I can sit there at great lengths and study the pictures, always seeing something new ....Unfortunately, try as I might, his work seems to be VERY limited as to any online content (?) ANYone have any links to share ?
Vic Smith has been a long time favorite urban modeller of mine. His work has been featured in a few magazines over the years - I can sit there at great lengths and study the pictures, always seeing something new ....
Unfortunately, try as I might, his work seems to be VERY limited as to any online content (?) ANYone have any links to share ?
I found this web page: http://www.pbase.com/golden1014/miscellaneous_rr_photos&page=1
Seems to be more pics from the same Vic Smith layout (in St Louis) ?
Speaking of St Louis - the Gateway division of the NMRA has done several small project layouts where they have used city buildings as a scenic divider on a 4x6 or 4x8 H0 island style layouts: http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm