I guess I have a combo of access methods for the stacked foam tunnels on my layout. Removable facia access where that's handiest,
and lift out hatches where it's not.
some of those hatches BTW are to get at some electronics as well, so are not necessarily a "tunnel only" feature. All my tunnels have hidden passing sidings, so I need to be able to get at the turnouts / motors for maintenance.
Picking up on Don Z's observation
I will side with you regarding your dislike for stacking foam. I don't like that method because no matter how hard the users try, the horizontal seams in the layers of foam are visible and therefore distracting to the overall appearance of the scenery.
Most of the ground cover in these photos hasn't yet been stained, and so is the natural colour of the sawdust / white glue mix which is my basic approach for this layout.
The thing I'd do over if I used this method again, is to NOT use the foam board as the track sub roadbed without plywood support. I didn't know, and the resultant noise from the trains is a real drag.
If you were wondering what the tunnel like blue card structure was inside one of those hatches, it leads up to a light box showing a scene as if the track goes straight through from the tunnel mouth (instead of curving to the left along the back wall and behind the long rock face)
"There are always alternatives, Captain" - Spock.
Most of my tunnels are against walls where viewers do not tread but operators do, thus the entire sides are open for easy access in case of emergencies. However, (and I hope this isn't a jinx) prior to building the tunnels, I make sure my track is true by running lots of equipment over it for a significant time to see if there will be any trouble spots. So far after covering the tunnel, I have had only one mishap on a 25" radius with an 85' car. My method is using foam insulation board, 2 to 3 inches thick for the basic structure, then placing chunks of the stuff along the top in a halter skelter way, if I am constructing a mountain tunnel, and covering it with plaster cloth. If necessary I "fill in the blanks" with plastic bags and masking tape to make the contours appear as natural as possible.
Hope this helps.
- Harry
Well, we've made the circle, foam is once again easier. I'll step off at this station.
Peace to those who've contributed.
Joe Daddy
joe-daddy wrote: CTValleyRR wrote: joe-daddy wrote:I do use it for some sidings, but not for the mainline where I want more strength and rigidity. Hmmm. Interesting notion. I've never had trouble with it being too flexible or soft -- although keep in mind that I'm using it as subroadbed. Mine is covered with plastercloth and hydrocal, with foam roadbed on top of that. It's glued on with adhesive caulk, and I never have trouble with stuff moving. Stuff I don't want to move, that is.True enough. As a first year newbie, I listened to the foam hype and tried a foam subroadbed for my yard and just could not deal with the issues. Mounting turnout motors, attaching and securing wiring, running wires through the foam were just some of the major challenges. Certainly there are work arounds and methods, straws for wires, fancy techniques to mount torti, etc. Just too much bother for a roadbed whose only advantage over 3/4 plywood is the weight. Just my 2 centsJoe Daddy
CTValleyRR wrote: joe-daddy wrote:I do use it for some sidings, but not for the mainline where I want more strength and rigidity. Hmmm. Interesting notion. I've never had trouble with it being too flexible or soft -- although keep in mind that I'm using it as subroadbed. Mine is covered with plastercloth and hydrocal, with foam roadbed on top of that. It's glued on with adhesive caulk, and I never have trouble with stuff moving. Stuff I don't want to move, that is.
joe-daddy wrote:I do use it for some sidings, but not for the mainline where I want more strength and rigidity.
Hmmm. Interesting notion. I've never had trouble with it being too flexible or soft -- although keep in mind that I'm using it as subroadbed. Mine is covered with plastercloth and hydrocal, with foam roadbed on top of that. It's glued on with adhesive caulk, and I never have trouble with stuff moving. Stuff I don't want to move, that is.
True enough. As a first year newbie, I listened to the foam hype and tried a foam subroadbed for my yard and just could not deal with the issues. Mounting turnout motors, attaching and securing wiring, running wires through the foam were just some of the major challenges. Certainly there are work arounds and methods, straws for wires, fancy techniques to mount torti, etc. Just too much bother for a roadbed whose only advantage over 3/4 plywood is the weight.
Just my 2 cents
Light weight isn't the only advantage of foam. It's much easier to cut and otherwise work with, especially for those without much in the way of power tools. Installing wiring is slightly easier - just punch a hole instead of drilling it. I don't use Tortoises, but Peco motors are much easier to mount. Etc.
Actually, I like the fact that there isn't a lot of structure there. If I need a hole for wiring, I can take a long screwdriver, or even a straightened coat hanger, and presto: instant hole. My benchwork has a brace every 24", so there's always real wood nearby when I need it. Tortoise has a gadget for attaching your motor offset from your machine.
However, I didn't succumb to newbie hype: I've used both plywood and foam for the base, and decided I like foam better. For the base, not the scenery.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
If you look carefully past the staging yard at the main part of the layout, you'll see a little PRR-style sign on the fascia that says "Tunnel Access." This is a styrene panel that is Velcroed in place to cover a roughly 4" by 11" access hole in my fascia. The mountains are made of stacked 2" foam sheets, but I left a 4" clearance in the tunnel for access.
This turned out to have been a very prudent design move. The inside main on my double-track line through the tunnel developed a kink where a cold solder joint gave out. I was able to relay the whole curve with Unitrack through that access hole.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Joe Daddy,
I have no photos. The layout I had was dissasembled when we moved. I'm going to build a new one, but it's still in the planning stages. My first one was nothing special and I'll readily admit that yours is better. But again, I credit that to your skills and not your choice of materials.
BTW, kudos on your website. It's very good. I especially enjoyed the sections on automated running, which is something I'd like to achieve. I've bought the DCC equipment and I have enough old computers in various stages of repair that I'm sure I could make one good one out of the parts. But combining DCC and the computer is where I'm lost.
HarryHotspur wrote:Hey Joe Daddy,I just looked at a few of the pictures of your layout on your website. Do my eyes deceive me, or do I see a lot of foam in there?
Hey Joe Daddy,
I just looked at a few of the pictures of your layout on your website. Do my eyes deceive me, or do I see a lot of foam in there?
Making mountains out of solid foam is not one of them. There is one place about a foot square where there is a 3" ridge made of foam. Harry, I do not fly under false colors. Like I have already said, my mountains are made of plaster hardshell with foam profile board.
How about sharing some pictures of your website, I'm sure I'll enjoy your artistry. And thanks for visiting my website, always glad to have visitors!
joe-daddy wrote:Harry,Perhaps I did not make my point, it is all about the RESULTS, not perception of difficulty. I've seen a lot more poor results from those using foam vs those using hard shell. Poor or disappointing results is my perception of this entire thread. Poor access is just one of the negative aspects attributed to all foam scenery.Reporting on what my old eyes see, not what I read about foam. Joe Daddy
Harry,
Perhaps I did not make my point, it is all about the RESULTS, not perception of difficulty. I've seen a lot more poor results from those using foam vs those using hard shell.
Poor or disappointing results is my perception of this entire thread. Poor access is just one of the negative aspects attributed to all foam scenery.
Reporting on what my old eyes see, not what I read about foam.
Results depend on the artist, not the medium. I doubt Da Vinci's work would have suffered had he been forced to use acrylics.
I have a video camera mounted in the front car of my subway. The intent all along was to provide full scenery in the tunnels to give the camera something realistic to look at. For that reason, the wide open tunnel interior idea wouldn't work for me.
In my case, foam was just a natural way to provide both support for higher levels and an interior wall for the tunnels.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Foam is faster, easier, and cheeper for some people - I know because I'm one of them. The failure to allow for access to hidden tracks is a design flaw, no matter what material is used.
I'm not opposed to older methods. Personally I prefer hardshell for all my terrain, but I prefer foam for a base and subroadbed, although I sometimes use plywood for subroadbed. It all depends on which suits the individual situation and modeller best.
HarryHotspur wrote:With my layout which is both foam and hardshell, it doesn't make any difference. All non-visible track is along one edge of the layout, which has a fold-down profile board along its edge. So I just drop the profile board, and everything is easily accessible beneath the mountains.For the life of me, I cannot understand why some people (not you) are so vehemently opposed to the use of foam and take great delight when someone has problems with it. Nobody is required to use it, and it's not like they will quit making plywood.
With my layout which is both foam and hardshell, it doesn't make any difference. All non-visible track is along one edge of the layout, which has a fold-down profile board along its edge. So I just drop the profile board, and everything is easily accessible beneath the mountains.
For the life of me, I cannot understand why some people (not you) are so vehemently opposed to the use of foam and take great delight when someone has problems with it. Nobody is required to use it, and it's not like they will quit making plywood.
I'll take your bait. I speak out when foam is misrepresented as the easier, cheaper and faster way to build a model railroad. We have a lot of newbies who read these mis-representations and rushout with expectations large and wind up with layouts that frankly could have looked better, that could have been easier to build and would have cost no more or even less than what they spent.
I'm three years into the hobby myself, past the newbie stage, but I don't need to misrepresent myself. I publish pictures of what I have and am doing specifically so those who read my words can test my credibility. I'm certainly not a Joe Fugate or a Tony Koester, but I sure do want and try to do work like they do. I find it interesting that many of the most prolific internet writers fall into two camps, those who rarely if ever share good pictures and those who love photoshop.
I use a combination of foam and hardshell, and none of my tunnels are lined with foam. And all of my tunnels are on curves (they have to be, most of my straight track is taken up with BRIDGES, LOL!). All my tunnels are hardshell with fairly generous interiors, the tunnel linings just extending past normal vision. AND--I have removable portals on one rather long one. So if there is an occasional derailment--voila! I remove the portal, stick the old 0-5-0 in there and retrieve the errant car or loco, replace the portal and I'm back in business. Actually, four of my major tunnels are backed by access holes, so I'm safe there, too. But I wouldn't think of lining my tunnels with foam. It sounds like an access nightmare.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
CTValleyRR wrote:I wouldn't say foam is useless. I use it instead of plywood over my benchwork to get a flat surface, and I layer it up anywhere I want a flat surface (towns, roads, track subroadbed). It's also useful as a framework for larger scenery pieces.But I have to agree that, unless you invest A LOT of time and effort, layouts made of scenery materials attached directly to styrofoam landforms don't look very good.Recently, I was talking with one of the modellers at a train show. He had a beautiful, Swiss-Alps-themed HO scale layout. His mountains looked terrific and very authentic. At one end of his layout was a mountain under construction (using the wedding cake method of extruded styrofoam construction). I asked him how long it took him to make his scenery. He pointed to the mountain under construction and said, "About 30 hours so far on that piece right there." Only about the top 1/3 of the mountain had been shaped. 30 hours?!? I can cover an entire 4 x 8 layout in plastercloth and hydrocal in that time, including curing time for the plaster!
I wouldn't say foam is useless. I use it instead of plywood over my benchwork to get a flat surface, and I layer it up anywhere I want a flat surface (towns, roads, track subroadbed). It's also useful as a framework for larger scenery pieces.
But I have to agree that, unless you invest A LOT of time and effort, layouts made of scenery materials attached directly to styrofoam landforms don't look very good.
Recently, I was talking with one of the modellers at a train show. He had a beautiful, Swiss-Alps-themed HO scale layout. His mountains looked terrific and very authentic. At one end of his layout was a mountain under construction (using the wedding cake method of extruded styrofoam construction). I asked him how long it took him to make his scenery. He pointed to the mountain under construction and said, "About 30 hours so far on that piece right there." Only about the top 1/3 of the mountain had been shaped. 30 hours?!? I can cover an entire 4 x 8 layout in plastercloth and hydrocal in that time, including curing time for the plaster!
CT, I agree with everything you say with the exception of using foam as a roadbed. I do use it for some sidings, but not for the mainline where I want more strength and rigidity.
I chuckled at your 30 hour statement, thinking you are alot farther along than letting the plaster cure. Hardshell with plaster goes very quickly as you know.
Joe
R. T. POTEET wrote:It appears from photographs posted here on the forum as well as published in the hobby press that the standard procedure for building up contour is to glue foam strips above a base of a solid sheet of this foam. It appears as if this is also the procedure for raising track profile.I have always been a Hydrocal hardshell advocate; over the years my layouts have had few tunnels and I can only recall one or two occasions where I suffered an in-tunnel derailment. When I pull my crumpled newspaper out from under my hardshell I have an open area into which I can inject my trusty 0-5-0 switcher for rerailing purposes. Am I missing something? but with a solid base sheet of this foam how, pray tell, do you'uns rerail errant equipment?
Stacking foam sheets is an awful waste of material. Foam has it's place but hardshell is much better (and lighter IMO)
-G-
loathar wrote: Don Z wrote:Mr. Poteet, I don't like that method because no matter how hard the users try, the horizontal seams in the layers of foam are visible and therefore distracting to the overall appearance of the scenery. They don't when you bury them with a layer of Sculptimold...I agree about liking hard shell better. I did use foam to do my tunnel liner and entrance just so I had some support for my plaster portal. It's all open inside for access though. (got to give the spiders and mice somewhere to live.)
Don Z wrote:Mr. Poteet, I don't like that method because no matter how hard the users try, the horizontal seams in the layers of foam are visible and therefore distracting to the overall appearance of the scenery.
Mr. Poteet,
I don't like that method because no matter how hard the users try, the horizontal seams in the layers of foam are visible and therefore distracting to the overall appearance of the scenery.
They don't when you bury them with a layer of Sculptimold...
I agree about liking hard shell better. I did use foam to do my tunnel liner and entrance just so I had some support for my plaster portal. It's all open inside for access though. (got to give the spiders and mice somewhere to live.)
This thread is plumb scary. The truth of foam is laid bare for all to read.
I like mountains. I've about 25 linear feet of them most with tunnels and all open inside. Originally I started using aluminum screenwire with hydrocal, and it just took too many coats or the use of paper towels in the mix, which makes it messy. Now I use Woodland scenics cloth which is SO EASY to use. Now I must tell you that I DO USE FOAM as a profile board upon which I fasten the screen wire to. Originally I used drywall screws to hold the screen wire until the plaster dries, but now I actually cut the profile out of lightweight foam, then trace scraps of 3/4 plywood with the shape about 2 inches wide and glue and screw it to the fram so I have something to staple the foam to.
I've also used foam as a flat base for scenery only because it is lightweight.
Stacked foam typically looks like stacked foam unless they put plaster cloth or ALOT of sculptamold on top of it.
I do want to give credit to those very talented people who can and do make nice looking layouts with foam and little or no plaster, but for every one I see that is nice, there are 8-10 that look like stacked foam or worse.
One side of a set of my mountains
Other side of the first set of mountains using cardboard framework on foam profile
Plaster cloth
Finishing up the plaster cloth with plaster castings.
This entire set of mountains are built so they can be totally removed from the train table and without cardiac assistance.
Just my 2 cents, trying to learn to be a model railroader.
Course there is more of my views on scenery and foam on my blog.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Don Z wrote: loathar wrote: They don't when you bury them with a layer of Sculptimold...I agree....except too many of the photos I've seen are of layouts that didn't use Sculptamold or anything else to hide the layers in the foam.Don Z.
loathar wrote: They don't when you bury them with a layer of Sculptimold...
I agree....except too many of the photos I've seen are of layouts that didn't use Sculptamold or anything else to hide the layers in the foam.
Don Z.
Yep. Latex caulk and Liquid Nails doesn't take stain very well...
Research; it's not just for geeks.