Thanks for all the info wm3798. I have desided to go with N scale for now, I just dont think that i can model large HO steam engines in a 6.5 ft wide space wile i can do that quite easly in N scale. The onely problem is is from what i've seen alot of N scale steam arnt DCC ready so il need to learn how to install decoders in the locos.
Other than that if i learn how to hardwire there are the same amount of locos avaliable to me at about the same price.
Here are (David's) thoughts. Keep in mind I used to be and N scaler, and am now an avid HO scaler.
N costs more per foot than HO does. It takes more N scale stuff to fill in the space.
HO Myth Number 1. You don't have to fill the space. One of the beauties of N is you can spread out your railroad. Example... Take any published HO track plan and simply replace the HO track with N. Same number of turnouts, same number of structures. Probably less expensive overall. Although you can now run longer trains through better scenery...
HO destroys N when it comes to detail, selection and reliability.
HO Myth Number 2 There is a growing number of N scale products on the market, the level of detail available on commercially available rolling stock has increased exponentially in recent years, and outside of a couple of sketchy manufacturers, reliability and ease of maintenance is at an all time high.
Some N scale locos are cheaper than their HO counterpart, but decoders are much more expensive.
Zero Sum Gain - A typical quality N scale diesel locomotive can be had for about $85 to $90 with a factory installed decoder. For about $5 more, you can get the loco "decoder ready" and install your own full function decoder.
N scale suffers from electrical contact issues. The weight of HO locomotives allows them to have more consistant and reliable contact to the rails.
HO Myth Number 3 - Electrical contact design in N scale is state of the art. Wireless, low friction, all wheel pick up and split frame mechanisms have made diesel models more reliable than ever. Newer steam releases feature all wheel pick up, including the tenders, or provide for easy modifications to achieve that. One fundamental truth that applies to all scales is that good mechanisms and weight can not overcome lousy trackwork and spotty wiring.
N scale suffers from oversized flanges and couplers. No one has produced a scale N scale coupler.
HO Myth Number 4 - While the strength of N scale may not be in minute detail of individual models, but rather in the operating longer trains in a more proportional setting, numerous products are available that address the appearance of commercially available rolling stock. Better quality models all feature RP-25 flanges, which operate on track as fine as code 40, and replacement wheelsets are available that provide an even finer flange and narrow tread profile if that's your bag. Off the rack HO equipment also needs to be upgraded if you want a truly fine scale appearance. N scale modelers who wish to improve the appearance of their couplers without sacrificing operating reliability regularly install Z-scale Micro Trains couplers with pleasing results.
Sound is very limited in N. HO offers a wide variety of options when it comes to sound.
No argument here... but there are more and more products coming on line that address this, including factory offerings with sound chips installed. As the technology advances, look for more.
With HO scale you have a history of quality item to choose from (from Athearn BBs to old Mantua locomotives) that can be tweeked to run with today's better offerings.
You also have Tyco, AHM, and a myriad of other offerings that were crap then, and crap now.
With N scale, you really only have the past 10-15 years to choose from. Anything before that was considered junk and still is.
If you are starting out now with N scale, this doesn't matter, unless your budget requires you to buy used equipment. But if you ask the right questions, you won't have a problem.
And so the epic struggle continues!
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Sandecky1989 wrote: "..... but at the moment its a bit out of the question, not onely would i need to but everything (benchwork, DCC controls, wireing and senery) twice i would also need to buy alot of the same locos in boath scales."
Actually, I'm just trying to cope with my guilt for having spent so much on both scales over the years. Yes, it does seem like a lot of duplication of material and effort, but each is going to be a more modest endeavor, at least in the beginning. (One of the reasons I don't have a layout now is I've always been too ambitious in the early stages, and ended giving up hope---- a common trait amongst many armchair modellers.) This is a major reason I decided to go with DCC. With the simplified wiring and easy hook-up, I can move my control system between layouts. I also don't plan on having huge stables of locos either.
Don
HobbyDr's Workbench
Ya doing boath would be good but at the moment its a bit out of the question, not onely would i need to but everything (benchwork, DCC controls, wireing and senery) twice i would also need to buy alot of the same locos in boath scales. Now eventually over meny years i will probubly work in the two scales but for my first layout i need to choose.
With the house i live in being quite small i onely have the room that im trying to build in now. the onely other place i could build in is my room wich is small and at the max i could build a 2.5/3ft by 4/5 foot layout with a small stageing yard off to the side wich is not the kind of layouts i really like. I like haveing alot of detail and big trains, i also dont really like being able to see the whole layout in one space, it kinda takes away from the realisim.
Sandeky1989 wrote:hear that code 100 is durable
If you're doing things that require your track to be THAT durable, you're doing something wrong.
At the risk of being labeled a heretic, has anyone else considered doing both? For the past 15 years I have wrestled with this same problem, and in that time have accumulated a large amount of N and HO equipment, structures, and track. I like the larger size and selection afforded by HO, as it suits my eyesight and dexterity. On the other hand, I am not a "rivet counter"and can be satisfied with the over-all effect attainable by N scale. I like closed-in industrial and city areas with lots of switching, as well as long coal drags struggling through majestic scenery. In other words, I have been chasing my tail for years (And I don't think I am alone in this.)
So here is what I have finally decided to do. I will do both. I will have an N scale layout upstairs that will represent the long distances through the mountains that my unit trains must navigate between destinations. Downstairs I will have HO layouts that will represent those destinations. No longer will I be kitbashing an HO structure from Art Curren's book, and fret that I should be doing more in N. Peace at last! Yeah, right. Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Has anyone else attempted this before? (I recall an Armstrong plan that used a smaller scale right of way in the background to force the perspective, but this is a little different I think.) As my project(s) progress(es) I will keep everyone up to date.
when i get around to actuelly building the layout il be useing flex track on some sort of roadbed. Not shure what code to use tho hear that code 100 is durable but id rather have realisim over durability. The place i've been doing all my looking for equipment is http://www.wholesaletrains.com/
they have really good prices on almost everything probubly the best online hobbyshop i have found so far.
pcarrell wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote:I worked with it in the 80s, when Katos were the new thing, and enjoyed it very much then. I can only assume that things have improved since.Only by a light year or two!
Midnight Railroader wrote:I worked with it in the 80s, when Katos were the new thing, and enjoyed it very much then. I can only assume that things have improved since.
Only by a light year or two!
I'd add Atlas to the list of top quality products. The Atlas Trainman line may fill the bill for good & cheap rolling stock. Atlas has a good selection of diesels to choose from. Your choice if you want DCC or not. You can decide if you want the smaller Code 55 flextrack or the new Code 65 TruTrack or the old reliable Code 80 track. Kato Unitrak is excellent but can be expensive. You should check with Toy Train Heaven in PA for prices.
Athearn has produced some excellent Big Boy & Challenger steamers.
pcarrell wrote: davidmbedard, makes some good points, though I'm not sure I'd go along with all of them. It's all good though.He does hit on something that I've wondered though. He states that HO decoders are cheaper then N scale decoders. Is this really true? I mean, I can get a Digitrax 123 for about $17 or the new 125 for about $19. If I want more features I can get a Digitrax 143 for about $26. I think thats pretty reasonable. So what are you HO guys paying for a decoder?
davidmbedard, makes some good points, though I'm not sure I'd go along with all of them. It's all good though.
He does hit on something that I've wondered though. He states that HO decoders are cheaper then N scale decoders. Is this really true? I mean, I can get a Digitrax 123 for about $17 or the new 125 for about $19. If I want more features I can get a Digitrax 143 for about $26. I think thats pretty reasonable.
So what are you HO guys paying for a decoder?
There's the rub. Although you can get pretty good decoders for $12-14 in bulk, in HO you gotta go sound and that is $70+. Over $100 if you want the cool stuff.
Heh On30 is a bit big for me. After i get the rest of my basment cleaned out (and try to check the Canton city Ohio housing laws to see the space required around a furnace) im going to get my a simple DCC starter set, i think i mite get the DCC commander steam set from Bachmann to start with and work from there.
I think i mite have a problem with my cats tho, when you have a bunch of 2/3 year old cats that think there still kittens it may be a bit hard to build. (sad thing is im not old, im 18 with nearsitednes and my glasses drive my crazy) =(
I want to use big steamers like Bigboys and Challengers with a steam servacing facility evan if i cant make big long trains.
Speaking strictly for myself, I would never consider anything smaller than HO. I have enough trouble with the fine detail parts when building HO structures. I'd end up in the nuthouse if I tried to work in N. I also don't like the size of the trains in N. They just don't look right to me. I want the trains to stand out, not the scenery. If I were to switch scales, I would go bigger with S scale. If more S scale was available, I would have given it serious consideration.
SpaceMouse wrote: If you want more RR for the space go N. If you like big scenery and long trains go N.If you like building models and creating scenes go HO. If you have fat, shakey fingers and failing eyesight go HO.
If you want more RR for the space go N.
If you like big scenery and long trains go N.
If you like building models and creating scenes go HO.
If you have fat, shakey fingers and failing eyesight go HO.
Better yet, if you have fat, shaky fingers, and lousy eyesight, jump up to On30. You can still use HO-width track and a minimum radius of about 26" will let you run just about everything offered in the scale AND you get use stuff with real heft and buildings you can detail the heck out of and ... I forgot (I'm old, too!)
Jim
davidmbedard wrote: Here are my thoughts. Keep in mind I used to be and N scaler, and am now an avid HO scaler. N costs more per foot than HO does. It takes more N scale stuff to fill in the space.HO destroys N when it comes to detail, selection and reliability.Some N scale locos are cheaper than their HO counterpart, but decoders are much more expensive.N scale suffers from electrical contact issues. The weight of HO locomotives allows them to have more consistant and reliable contact to the rails.N scale suffers from oversized flanges and couplers. No one has produced a scale N scale coupler.Sound is very limited in N. HO offers a wide variety of options when it comes to sound.With HO scale you have a history of quality item to choose from (from Athearn BBs to old Mantua locomotives) that can be tweeked to run with today's better offerings.With N scale, you really only have the past 10-15 years to choose from. Anything before that was considered junk and still is.David B
Here are my thoughts. Keep in mind I used to be and N scaler, and am now an avid HO scaler.
David B
Very well put.
-G- (former N-scaler)
Randall_Roberts wrote: Split the difference... go with TT scale. (Just kidding... unless you want to model European prototypes).
Split the difference... go with TT scale. (Just kidding... unless you want to model European prototypes).
Or split the difference differently and go HOn3. Plenty of US prototypes there.
Mark
Thanks for all your replies. I can easlie fit 25/30+ inch radius curves on the mainline so running the bigger engines shouldint be a problem, i need to finish all the measurements but i think with a few liftout sections it should work quite well as a around the room style layout.
Your right saying N and HO are about the same price so its came down to wundering if I being nearsited in one eye and the rest of my familie would be able to see the fine details of N scale not to mention i have big hands so it looks like i will be going with HO scale for this layout. I mite make another in N somday but not now.
I'm an advocate of N scale, but it's really up to you. If you want to see what you can do in N in a modest amount of space, you're welcome to visit my layout website, the link is below my signature.
Thanks,
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: I would generally disagree with the statement that N is quite a bit more expensive than HO. In general the prices seem quite comparable to me. There is more "cheap" stuff available in HO, perhaps, but when you compare quality items, I think the cost is very similar.
I would generally disagree with the statement that N is quite a bit more expensive than HO. In general the prices seem quite comparable to me. There is more "cheap" stuff available in HO, perhaps, but when you compare quality items, I think the cost is very similar.
I agree--when you compare items of similar quality, they're pretty close.
Were I to do it again, I'd go with N scale. I worked with it in the 80s, when Katos were the new thing, and enjoyed it very much then. I can only assume that things have improved since.
I pondered the same question when I decided to get back into the hobby and build another layout. For me, it came down to, I'm 53 years old and my eyes just can't see that small. It's hard enough to put HO cars back on the track. I could be there for days trying to put N scale cars on the track.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
If anything, N is cheaper then HO these days if not having quite the selection yet.
I would looks to see what would be the minimum radius you can fit into a round the room track plan for your layout then look at what you can run in what scale. If all you can manage is 20" radius then steam would look pretty silly in HO but just fine in N. Likewise, if you are able to make it work with larger curves then maybe you have more options.
Personally, I think steam looks (and sounds) better in larger scales. I have also seen some N scale steam people lamenting lack of this or that locomotive. I do diesel which makes things a little easier for me in N.
Chris
Actually, there's one diesel on the market already with sound in N, and many more on the way. There is a Challenger in N scale on the market now with DCC and sound, and a Big Boy is either out or due to be out any time with DCC and sound.
I'd have to agree with others that N scale prices are very comparable for quality stuff (like the loco's you mention), and with your space constraints, N is clearly the way to go. Think about it......an HO scale Big Boy, and a train long enough to justify it, are going to wrap all the way around the layout and the loco is going to be chasing it's caboose.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Since money is a concern, go with HO. It has several economy lines that are cheaper than N plus you need fewer items for a given space.
Enjoy
Paul
I would generally disagree with the statement that N is quite a bit more expensive than HO. In general the prices seem quite comparable to me. There is more "cheap" stuff available in HO, perhaps, but when you compare quality items, I think the cost is very similar. Of course, with N, you will want to buy more stuff for the same space, but that' is a different issue!
The detail on N has gotten much better in the past few years. There is no question that it is small, but it can really look good.
In my opinion, to model the space that those big locos would look best in, and the kinds of trains they would look best pulling, N scale is the way to go. Of course, those locos won't be cheap in any scale!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
I decided to clean out my basement to (try) to build a layout again. I've been around the hobby for a long time but have yet to finish a layout. I have tryed boath N scale and HO scale and now im torn on wich to try to build again. The space i have is a very odd shape its about 15/16 feet long from the wall to about 3 feet from the furnace and somware close to 8 feet wide with the washer and dryer leaveing 6 feet on one side that i can build a lift out section over.
So im torn between N scale wich would let me have more in the space but its quite a bit more expencive than HO and its a bit small to see good detail, or use HO scale with is a bit cheeper and a lot more detailed but it takes a lot of room. Im wanting to build "Roud the Room" style layout that can run big Steamers including some of my favorites the 4-6-6-4 challenger and the 4-8-8-2 cab forwords. Il also need to make it able to come apart and move so i dont need to leave it behind if we ever move (Wich we want to do). So my question is what would be better for that space? (i have a really small budget so i cant do anything fancy anytime soon).
(please excuse any spelling errors there mite be)