WWII

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone,

 I'm new to the forums, but this place looks fun. I have been thinking for a long time about doing a layout (my first), but I had no idea what I wanted to do. Now I have made up my mind to do a layout around a WWII theme. Has anyone else had this idea and if so what did you do? I have the idea of a train that runs somewhere in the U.S., then Germany, then maybe along the beach in Normandy on D-Day. Maybe Omaha beach.

 Also, If anyone knows a place where you can order HO size German and American tanks, AA Guns and the such, it sure would help.

 

Thanks for listening,

Toxic911

[Anonymous]

Welcome.

Trains were particularly hunted down by Tacair during Normady, prior to and after while inland and strategic marshall yards were bombed into oblivion the entire war.

Here at home, you would have large tank trains because shipping was threatened by Uboats, MAIN trains of troop and equiptment and just flat overall rail-busting wartime traffic.

[Texas Zepher]

I have made up my mind to do a layout around a WWII theme. Has anyone else had this idea and if so what did you do? I have the idea of a train that runs somewhere in the U.S., then Germany, then maybe along the beach in Normandy on D-Day.

Well, I can start by saying that I am pretty certain there were no railroads on the Normady beaches.  Eurpoean railroad equipment is very different than the North American.

In the US travel was restricted and the railroads pressed very old passenger equipment back into troop train service.  The railroads were forced to use old steam locomotives and to take delivery of brand new steam power because the diesel locomotive manufacturers were mostly converted into war production.   Remember in WWII the interstate highway system was still a new German invention and unheard of here in the US so almost everything traveled by train.

There are many many companies that make HO scale WWII equipment both railroad and military.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-4151
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-4181
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/326-740302
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/490-9895
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/590-16544

[marknewton]

Well, I can start by saying that I am pretty certain there were no railroads on the Normady beaches.

No, but there was a narrow gauge system that ran along the coast just behind the beaches, which was destroyed by the Normandy landings.

Mark.

[simon1966]

I have not done any serious searches for a few years but in my experience there is a fair amount of German WW2 equipment in HO but not a lot of US, British or the other allies.  This may have something to do with the fact that many of the manufacturers of model vehicles are actually German.

[Rommel]

[Modeling & Painting Blog by G-dog and Friends] First pictures of
Layout cons...




Same view but without bay & Submarine from prev. picture/blog






Here is the table that was taken out...the u-boat and scenery will be recycled into the new layout



I'm focusing on the Island of Sylt that was connected by a man made cause way called the Hindenburgdamm. On the Island of Sylt there was a narrow gauge railway that also serviced the military am planning on a small midget submarine (seehunds) base with torpedoes and supplies brought in by the main railway then transferred to the narrow line to service the army base. The other end of layout will be the city of Hamburg Germany with a grand station and glass canopy train shed for passenger service. Freight and passenger service will be the focus on this layout during war time operations in what euro modelers refer to as "era II modeling" plans also include a waybill system for fun operating sessions for 1 to 4 people. and if time permits a trolley system in the city. Most of the carpentry is just about done (thank goodness) soon Ill get to laying track installing turn outs and ballasting. then some scenery and backdrop painting. the fun stuff .

 

I would look into the 15mm/1/100  (not far off from 1/87) scale war game line "Flames of War" it has all the great stuff you'll need for flat loads and troops. also the scenery for war gamimg will make you very happy!

But the major difference is the price war gaming items are almost a third what the over priced HO scale military stuff goes for the kits are easier to put together and look awesome once painted.

www.flamesofwar.com 

 

 

 

[Lillen]

Check this site out and the company that produces them Artitec.

 

http://www.artitec.nl/militaryfr.htm

 

 

Magnus

[Anonymous]

There's a store in Royal Oak, Michigan that has scale military stuff. Chances are you don't live around there, but you can order from their website www.michtoy.com They also have a good selection of scenery.

[Anonymous]

Thank you guys so much for the help. Although I know that the rail system was destroyed in Normandy, I still think it would be cool to model the storming of the beach. That is why I wanted to do it. If you have any other great ideas like the ones above or something else, then please let me know.

 

Thanks again,

Toxic

[Anonymous]

There's a store in Royal Oak, Michigan that has scale military stuff. Chances are you don't live around there, but you can order from their website www.michtoy.com They also have a good selection of scenery.

Trainzrule89,

What a fantastic site. Thank you so much. I am also into table top wargames and LOVE Flames of War.

 Toxic911

[steinjr]

 I have the idea of a train that runs somewhere in the U.S., then Germany, then maybe along the beach in Normandy on D-Day. Maybe Omaha beach.

 I would suggest picking one of the three, and run with that. It will look rather weird to have one train pass through scenes from three countries on the same layout.

 Model RR layout with WW2 look ? Do a dockside theme - from e.g. the US east coast where tanks and other military vehicles are unloaded from flatcars to be lifted onto a freight steam ship.

 I can at least see the following H0 scale US Army WW2 equipment 
 (from EKO or Boley's Dept1-87):

 M4 Sherman medium tank
 M5 Stuart light tank
 M8 Greyhound armored car
 M36 Jackson tank destroyer
 M36 deuce-and-a-half truck
 GMC personell carrier

 You can get WW2 freight ship models in 1:96 scale from e.g  Dean's Marine in England.
 http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/mpage/Products/trampsteamer.html
 http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/mpage/Products/liberty.html
 Tramp steamer is about 36" long, liberty ship is 50+" long.

 Good luck in figuring out what to model.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[DSchmitt]

 

 

This store lists a lot of HO Military not generally found elsewhere in the USA

http://www.reynaulds.com/

Go to the "Military Menu" in the "Select a Section" box at the top of the page.

 

It may take a while to get some items,  I got some N scale ship resin kits from them a few years ago.  Took about 4 months because the were not in stock.

 

 

[tgindy]

The "Model Train Magazine Index" on "war" says this about war operations...

http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=S&cmdtext=war&MAG=ANY&output=3&sort=D

[Packers#1]

Check walthers. I remember they have a bunch of WW2 stuff for both sides from some manufacturers.

[steinjr]

 Just an add-on: one really cool place to model during WW2 would have been the Brooklyn Waterfront - say the Brooklyn Army Base (as it was known during WW2 - it was later renamed Brooklyn Army Terminal) :

 Track plan above is linked from this web page:
http://members.aol.com/bedt14/MilitaryRRofNY.html#Army%20Term

Some pictures from the area:

http://www.bluejake.com/archives/2007/10/09/brooklyn_army_terminal.php
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/waterfront/
http://www.oldnyc.com/

Edit: Library of congress HABS/HAER (Historical American Buildings Survey/Historical American Engineering Records) pics and data from this area: http://tinyurl.com/38lq9c

Smile,
Stein

 

 

[wheeler]

Winner of the next layout contest?

"With UNLIMITED Government funds how can you..."?

[steinjr]

Winner of the next layout contest?

"With UNLIMITED Government funds how can you..."?

 LOL

 If you send me a couple of billion (doesn't really matter if it is dollar or kroner as long as it is a couple of billion), I will build you a H0 scale replica of the entire 1200+ car Brooklyn Army Base complex.

 Otherwise, I guess I would have picked the upper left hand corner (seaside of building A, parts of pier 3 and 4 and the spur leading to the boilerhouse).

 That could be modelled in H0 scale in a regular 10x12 bedroom, using a selective compression of roughly 1:4 (ie having tracks that hold 7 cars on the model where the real thing held about 28 cars).

 Perhaps something like this (plan roughed out in about 1 1/2 hours - obviously could be significantly improved if one spent more time on it).

 

  Picture a shelf layout with an 6-8 story massive warehouse building along the 12 foot wall and two three story warehouses on either side, maybe a liberty ship (which would be about 55" long and 7" wide in 1:96 scale, which is close enough to 1:87 scale to look good). War materials piled up on the docks, waiting to be loaded.

 Would look pretty impressive, I betcha

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[ndbprr]

I think you should reconsider your idea.  A model of say Omaha Beach would require a massive amount of room.  Taking the largest invasion in history and using even 500 toy soldiers isn't going to replicate the idea very well.  In addition you are limiting yourself to June 6, 1944.  I seriously doubt that any trains in the area (even if they existed) ran on that day.  Let's face it the locals weren't saying lets go watch the war take place.  They were all in basements and cellars trying to survive.  Then there is the destruction from all the bombing prior to the assualt.  I would look for something a little more uplifting then a day when death ruled on both sides of the battle.  A railroad six months later taking supplies in land as fast as possible would offer more operating interest.

[Lillen]

All railroad activity was out on D-day for a couple of reason.

 

1) French partisans blew up bridges and railroads.

 

2) Massive, massive bombing of bridges, train yards tracks and pretty much anything that moved. Even single vehicles where targets on this day. For the Germans to sen a train up the Cotentin peninsula or even close to Normandy would have been assured destruction. The air was virtually filled with air crafts that made sure movement of large scale formations was impossible.

 

I think Stein is on to a good a idea.

 

Magnus

[tomikawaTT]

Setting my brain to the 'way back when' mode, I seem to recall a scheme to lay rails in the holds of LSTs, matching rails on the inner bow ramp and a wedge-shaped connector to rails laid on the beach at one of the mulberry ports on the Normandy coast.  The idea was to get replacements for the destroyed French rolling stock into France to support the Allied advance.

I have no idea whether this was built, or just another ??? article from WWII era Popular Mechanics magazine.  During the same era Popular Mechanics was filled with proposed flying cars for the masses and subdivisions built around runways...

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[DSchmitt]

From "Steel Rails to Victory" by Ron Ziel 

[DSchmitt]

Hi everyone,

 I'm new to the forums, but this place looks fun. I have been thinking for a long time about doing a layout (my first), but I had no idea what I wanted to do. Now I have made up my mind to do a layout around a WWII theme. Has anyone else had this idea and if so what did you do? I have the idea of a train that runs somewhere in the U.S., then Germany, then maybe along the beach in Normandy on D-Day. Maybe Omaha beach.

 Also, If anyone knows a place where you can order HO size German and American tanks, AA Guns and the such, it sure would help.

 

Thanks for listening,

Toxic911

 

Roco Minitanks German 88mm  $24.08

REI flatcars with with SP anti-aircraft gun loads.  The least expensive a Wirbelwind $89.95

Available at Reynaulds Euro Imports  link in earlier post in this trhread.

[greyhounds]

I think a copy of the previously mentioned "Steel Rails to Victory" would be a good guide.

http://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?S=R&bid=9267522921&cm_mmc=shopcompare-_-base-_-nonisbn-_-na

As the above posted pictures show, the US Army had quite a railway operation in Europe in WWII.  (They still have some reserve rail units.)

They acquired numerous steam locomotives from US builders for use in Europe.  These were built with European coupler systems and to conform to European clearances.  Most common was a hand fired 2-8-0 design.  At least two survive in the US.  One at the Army Transportation Museum at Ft. Eustis, Virginia and the other operational on a tourist line in the south.

The Army had to get the European railroads back up and running as they advanced to move the supplies.  They used Railway Operating Batallions.  A Batallion had three companies:  "A" company was maintenance of way and bridges, "B" Company was the shop force that repaired and maintained equipment,  and "C" company consisted of the train crews, block operators, etc.

A lot of drafted railwaymen from the US found themselves running trains in Europe

 

[wjstix]

As someone mentioned, I don't think doing all three would work - be hard to explain a Deutsch Reichsbahn train with swastika herald running thru the US during WW2!! 

The period after D-Day would make sense, if you wanted to go for the European side. US built engines were unloaded and used on the French railways as the troops pushed the Germans back. There's a lot of German "Era II" equipment out there from Marklin and others, and a fair amount of French too. (Unfortunately UK stuff is generally OO scale not HO.) Keep in mind though that railways were targeted by both sides, the Allies bombed railway centers and the retreating Germans destroyed rail lines to prevent their use by the Allies. 

Interestingly the Germans built decoy trains, trains built to look like general freights that they used to try to lure US and British pilots into strafing. Once the planes got close, the sides of the boxcars could swing out of the way revealing a variety of machine and anti-aircraft guns that would be trained on the plane.

My suggestion would be to either do Europe in 1945, when the railways had been worked on and put back in order, or concentrate on the US during the war, perhaps having a separate area (like a separate level) with dioramas of the fighting in Europe.

[Lillen]

Interestingly the Germans built decoy trains, trains built to look like general freights that they used to try to lure US and British pilots into strafing. Once the planes got close, the sides of the boxcars could swing out of the way revealing a variety of machine and anti-aircraft guns that would be trained on the plane.

 

Do you have a source for this? I've never heard of it, which doesn't mean that it didn't happen of course. Both sides used a lot of dummies for just about everything. But aircraft guns are more a deterrent and a way to make the attackers less effective rather then being very good at downing aircraft's. They do of course shoot down aircraft.

 

The Germans did for example try this with U-boats. But it was a complete failure when boats with extra AA guns tried to engage aircraft's. It simply did not work.

 

Magnus

[tomikawaTT]

Thanks for the photos, Brother Schmitt!  Nice to know that my long-term memory isn't hallucinating.

I don't know about a train rigged as a Q-boat, but I have seen gun camera photos of German flakwagen (passenger car length, with an AA automatic weapon mount on each end) as part of the consist of an ordinary goods train.  Judging by the amount of flying steam at the end of the tracer stream, the eight .50 cal Brownings carried by a P47 could turn a locomotive boiler into a colander in pretty rapid order.

Speaking semi-professionally (my father commanded an AA automatic weapons battalion) it would make more sense to park a 'bait' train at a designated spot where there were plenty of AA weapons in concealed positions on the ground around it.  Ground gunners would be more effective if the attacker wasn't targeting THEM.  After all, the aircraft has a tremendous advantage.  The train is confined to following a clearly visible set of rails.  The aircraft is under no such constraint.

During the Pacific War, my prototype largely escaped all but incidential damage.  The B29 raids which might have targeted rail facilities were highly inaccurate (one reason why the emphasis was shifted to night area bombing with incendiaries.)  Low-level fighter-bomber sweeps, conducted by carrier aircraft, were only sporadic and confined to the last few months of the war.  OTOH, there is a documented case where, frustrated by seeing trains steam by on the shoreside rail line, a submarine commander sent a team ashore to rig a bridge for scuttling - then watched as the next train and the bridge went into the drink after failing to achieve orbit with the initial liftoff.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Lillen]

 

I don't know about a train rigged as a Q-boat, but I have seen gun camera photos of German flakwagen (passenger car length, with an AA automatic weapon mount on each end) as part of the consist of an ordinary goods train.  Judging by the amount of flying steam at the end of the tracer stream, the eight .50 cal Brownings carried by a P47 could turn a locomotive boiler into a colander in pretty rapid order.

 

I agree 100%.  The Germans did use Flak on trains as a deterrent to attacking airplanes. I would not think they downed very many aircraft though. The amount of spent for shooting down a single aircraft is staggering. So they did use FLAK on trains. There is no doubt about it.

 

Speaking semi-professionally (my father commanded an AA automatic weapons battalion) it would make more sense to park a 'bait' train at a designated spot where there were plenty of AA weapons in concealed positions on the ground around it.  Ground gunners would be more effective if the attacker wasn't targeting THEM.  After all, the aircraft has a tremendous advantage.  The train is confined to following a clearly visible set of rails.  The aircraft is under no such constraint.

 

 

This makes a lot more sense as well. But my guess is that any dummies placed in a yard or on a track would be only to act as a decoy and the hope that the strafing planes would waist bullets, rockets and bombs on such a target instead. I can not see the any reason what so ever for the Germans to waist AA guns in an attempt to draw airplanes in to attack. They simply didn't have any to spare. Their was enough hot targets that actually needed protection. And as you say Chuck, sitting inside the target, which is sitting still with no protection just makes them really good soft targets. Why sit in the target? Remember that at this stage of the war the germans are very strained. In fact, a lot of the guns where used to fight tanks rather then aircraft during the different campaigns.

 

Also the bigger guns, like the 88mm would not exactly be the kind of gun you put inside a boxcar and opened the door to make it capable to fire. Fields of view would also be severely restricted unless you fire blindly through the roofs and sides of the car.

 

All that said, the Germans did a lot of stuff, but I would love a source on it so that I can read about it. So it is not impossible but my guess is that it is a combination myth containing several actual facts to make up the story. They did use decoys so there is no doubt about that it might have happened.

 

Here is a  few links to some armoured trains including FLAK cars.

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TRAINS12.htm 

 

http://www.wio.ru/rr/ww2sov.htm

 

 

 

Magnus

[CPD95]

  One of my "ultimate layout" ideas was to model a german railyard in eastern Poland around summer time 43. Loaded trains of troops and equipment going east to Russia and possibly south for Italy, hospital trains going west. Unfortunately, the cost for model equipment today would be about the same  as what Germany was shelling out for the real stuff then

[MStLfan]

If you have any other great ideas like the ones above or something else, then please let me know.

One other potentionally interesting modelling idea is what the Germans refer to as Stunde 0. The zero hour after hostilities ended and before civilization made a comeback. You can model overloaded trains with people being moved in gondolas for quite a distance (Hamburg - Cologne for instance) moving slowly past devastated areas. Think destroyed bridges being raised from the rivers / moved out of the way while the train runs slowly over a temporary bridge. Bombed yards with craters and wrecked cars etc. And of course the famous Trümmerbahnen. Narrow gauge trains moving the rubble of the bombed cities out of the way.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[wjstix]

Interestingly the Germans built decoy trains, trains built to look like general freights that they used to try to lure US and British pilots into strafing. Once the planes got close, the sides of the boxcars could swing out of the way revealing a variety of machine and anti-aircraft guns that would be trained on the plane.

 

Do you have a source for this? I've never heard of it, which doesn't mean that it didn't happen of course. Both sides used a lot of dummies for just about everything. But aircraft guns are more a deterrent and a way to make the attackers less effective rather then being very good at downing aircraft's. They do of course shoot down aircraft.

 

The Germans did for example try this with U-boats. But it was a complete failure when boats with extra AA guns tried to engage aircraft's. It simply did not work.

 

Magnus

IIRC it was Quentin Aanenson who talked about that. If you watched the recent Ken Burns film "The War" on PBS, Aanenson was one of the guys from Luverne MN who was interviewed. Maybe five years ago the local Mpls-St.Paul PBS station did a documentary just on his experiences as a P-47 pilot with him narrating, based on his memoirs of the war. I think he said a friend of his was killed when a seeminly normal freight train turned out to be hiding machine guns or anti-aircraft guns, and shot the guy's plane down during a low-level strafing run.

But I could be remembering it wrong, it has been a few years since that aired.

On a different subject, Preiser does make figures of WW2 refugees.