3D PlanIt

[BCSJ]

Back in the long ago I switched from cadrail to 3rdPlanit (for various reasons I won't go into at this time). Since then I've designed several model railroads with it (including the current Bear Creek and South Jackson in my 1100 sqft basement room).

 http://s145079212.onlinehome.us/rr/layoutdesign/bcsj3_design/index.html

I drove our architect nuts by using 3pi to do house designs and 3d views. I've used it to string diagrams to create a schedules and lineups. I've also used it to make 3d diagrams demonstrating various facets of layout construction.

 http://s145079212.onlinehome.us/rr/howto/bridgebracing/index.html

Somehow I feel that I've gotten my money's worth out of the program. And yes, while $100 is enough money to get the attention of most mortals, check out what AutoCad costs for a comparison...

Regards,

Charlie Comstock 

[odave]

I'll throw my $0.02 as well.  I evaluated several packages last year including 3rd PlanIt, CADRail and XtrkCAD.  I found that each of them had their own sets of quirks, non-intuitive methodologies, and length of learning curve.  This will sound weird after some of the posts up-thread, but I ended up going with 3rd PlanIt mainly because I got along with its UI better than the others.  I work on an industrial robotics CAD package every day, and 3PI just felt more natural to me.  Obviously that doesn't apply to everyone.  I don't regret the purchase at all, even though it was more expensive, and I agree that once you're up the learning curve it's a very powerful package.

I agree with the others who suggested downloading the demos.   I would figure out what you want to accomplish with the CAD package (track layout only, layout + scenery + benchwork, etc.).  You may want to sketch a simple track plan on paper as an evaluation tool.  Then download the various demo packages and see how hard or easy you find it to draw up that simple track plan.

[SilverSpike]

Texas, I was able to get the free 3rd PlanIt upgrade from my earlier version as well a few months back. I find it has resolved many of the bugs from earlier versions, however the upgrade has not made the program any "easier" from a usage standpoint, it still has the same robust features and a few more "bells" and "whistles" which might actually confuse some novice users of the program.  The learning curve is still worth it for me!

[Texas Zepher]

I've been in contact with the 3D PlanIt people.   They reviewed my purchase of the product and have agreed that I get a free upgrade to version 8.x.   SO I down loaded it last night and will work through a few things I was having trouble with before.  I'll post a new review after I've had a while to get used to it, and can give it a "fair shake".

[Mntneer]

Anyone here using 3D PlanIt?

 

It looks nice but rather expensive. Can you get it from somewhere else but the manufacturer?

 

Magnus

 

I've used 3rd Planit, as well as RR Track.  Both are good in some areas, bad in others. 

RR Track has, IMO, much better track libraries as well as accessory libraries, and is much easier when it comes to laying sectional track.   The biggest problem I have with is is how it handles topographical elevations, as well as it's 3D view window.  It's hard, IMO, at creating terrain that you really want, and when you go to view your layout, the 3D window controls leaves a lot to be desired.

3rd Planit though is much better when it comes to working with terrain, elevations, etc., and the 3D view of your layout is much much nicer.  Plus, the ability to run trains on it is a nice bonus.  The track libraries though aren't as robust as I would like, as are the accessories, and laying track is not as easy, IMO than it is in RR Track.  Such as selecting multiple pieces of track at once.  In RR Track, if they are connected, just double clicking any track member selects all track connected to it.  3rd Planit doesn't do that.

3rd Planit does have a much much steeper learning curve too, but it's more functional than RR Track.

Prices for both are a bit high IMO though, especially considering the finished product.

[dante]

Hi Hudson,

You might get a bit more specific help on the Yahoo Group, but here's what I would do:

1. In the library, click on track,  HO (I'm assuming HO), then select whatever brand of turnout your using.  I picked Wathers Code 83, and then picked a curved #7-1/2 turnout.  This seems to have an outside curve radius of 36".
2. Select of cut/copy two more for a total of 3 turnouts.
3. Align the turnouts by dragging the end of one turnout to join it with another.  It should snap and align automatically if you drag one over the other's end.
4. Use the draw projecting line tool to extend a straight piece of track from the topmost turnout.  As you extend, make it 2-1/2 to 3 feet in length.  You can always resize later.
5. Again use the draw projecting line tool to extend a straight line from each turnout.  Make these about 3 inches each.
6. In the Options dialog (Tools->Options), click the Tools icon, and make sure the distance between parallel objects is 2 1/4".
7. Now, use the  copy parallel  tool to  copy the 3' straight section down to make the next lead.  The tracks will automatically be parallel and 2-1/4" center to center.
8. Select the connect direct tool and use it to make a smooth curve between each of the turnouts and its corresponding yard lead.

 

Getting used to 3rd PlanIt is tough, but worth it.  In the early design stages, I often use both the program and a pencil to do the "what ifs".  Ultimately, the program keeps your dreams and expectations realistic.

Regards,

Greg

 

I don't use 3DPlanit; I use Empire Express on a Mac.  However, based on measurements of the actual turnouts, I have made grapics of them that I can send you in PDF format that you might possibly use as the basis for a custom turnout in #DPlanit.  They are centerline, single line graphics.

A caution regarding the radii of these turnouts.   There was an earlier thread specifically about Walthers/Shinohara turnouts to which I posted this:

"To recheck my curved turnout sizes (Walthers/Shinohara Code 83), I built a homemade beam compass, laid-out arcs and overlaid the turnouts. The results are:

• #6/#6.5:  24/18 (frog# depends on whether you believe the box label or the imprint on the turnout!)

• #7:  28/22

• #7.5:  32/26

• #8:  36/30

I also checked a #4 Code 70: with a 22" radius for the closure rail, it must actually be a #4.5.

The inside radii are not what Walthers posts nor are they as imprinted on the underside of the turnouts!"

Dante
 

[Hudson]

Hey Greg,

I've been down that road too..................

I'll take a closer look again at "Templot"............

It's not constructing the turnouts that seem to be the problem though.......

The connection engine just doesn't seem to be able to calculate the kind of geometry that I'm looking to accomplish.

I'll probably make a direct inquiry to Randy seeming that I've exhausted most of my options........

Thanks for the well wishes, nice layout plan BTW...........

 

 

[gshin]

Hi,

You can certainly do all of what you are describing in in 3rdPlanIt if you choose to design your own turnouts.  Since you didn't specify, I assumed you were not handlaying track.

That said, I'm not an expert at designing turnouts from scratch, but I do know that 3rdPlanIt users who design custom turnouts use a combination of the CAD software and Templot (www.templot.com) to compute all the right dimensions.  There is also a turnout calculator in the files area of the Yahoo user group.  Lastly, there is new functionality built in to the program to use the Fast Tracks stuff if you wish to go that route.

In any case, 3rdPlanIt has all the primitives to do anything you wish.  It may just not be point and click.

I wish you well in your endeavors.

Greg 

 

[Hudson]

Hey Greg,

I know how to do all of that..............and I can achieve a result similiar to yours. The problem Is that how the turnouts fan into the ladder isn't symmetrical. The idea is that the diverging route radii, and easments, need to be such to fan out gracefully into parallel body tracks at the preferred spacing. Without using a reversed turnout at the top and without an S-curve.......

It's proven, sofar, to be impossible to do in 3d Planit. I've also asked at the various forums on line. Another thing you can't do with the software is draw a high speed curved crossover between two parallel curved routes.

These are things you find everyday in track geometry..................

Like I said basic uncomplicated track alignments are easy but any kind of complex special work is practically impossible. Frankly I've come to the conclusion that the CAD engine isn't capable of what I need it to do.

Imagine trying to draw a curved passenger throat into a terminal. Let's say with dual ladders, crossovers, and double slips.

I'd bet good money it's impossible in 3D plan it.

Thanks anyway though, you've comfirmed my suspicions. Everyone I've asked comes up with a similiar result to yours including myself.

[gshin]

Hi Hudson,

You might get a bit more specific help on the Yahoo Group, but here's what I would do:

1. In the library, click on track,  HO (I'm assuming HO), then select whatever brand of turnout your using.  I picked Wathers Code 83, and then picked a curved #7-1/2 turnout.  This seems to have an outside curve radius of 36".
2. Select of cut/copy two more for a total of 3 turnouts.
3. Align the turnouts by dragging the end of one turnout to join it with another.  It should snap and align automatically if you drag one over the other's end.
4. Use the draw projecting line tool to extend a straight piece of track from the topmost turnout.  As you extend, make it 2-1/2 to 3 feet in length.  You can always resize later.
5. Again use the draw projecting line tool to extend a straight line from each turnout.  Make these about 3 inches each.
6. In the Options dialog (Tools->Options), click the Tools icon, and make sure the distance between parallel objects is 2 1/4".
7. Now, use the  copy parallel  tool to  copy the 3' straight section down to make the next lead.  The tracks will automatically be parallel and 2-1/4" center to center.
8. Select the connect direct tool and use it to make a smooth curve between each of the turnouts and its corresponding yard lead.

 

Getting used to 3rd PlanIt is tough, but worth it.  In the early design stages, I often use both the program and a pencil to do the "what ifs".  Ultimately, the program keeps your dreams and expectations realistic.

Regards,

Greg

 

[Hudson]

Greg,

Nice stuff...........You seem to be pretty accomplished with 3D.

I'm having an awful time trying to draw a certain track configuration in 3D planit maybe you could offer a tip or two?

I'm trying to draw a curved compound ladder. The outside radii being 36". Using 3 curved turnouts to fan out symetrically from the lead into 4 body tracks, spaced 2 1/4"..........For the life of me I can't get it to happen in 3D planit.

Any thoughts?

[gshin]

Thanks, Joe Daddy!

 I'm starting benchwork this Saturday, so I hope to have some new pictures posted.

Regards,

Greg 

[joe-daddy]

Greg,

Nice website with an excellent set of drawings and plans.  I've book marked your site so I can watch as you progress with your railroad.  That huge newly finished basement looks very accomodating!  Interesting that you chose an island layout design.

Joe Daddy 

 

[gshin]

I'm currently using 3rdPlanIt to build my basement layout.  I've used it since early version 7 and the program just keeps getting better with each version!  You can see some of my design work at http://www.shindledecker.com/trackplanshowingtowns.  I find it indispensible for keeping me honest - what you design will fit!  Once your design is done, you can save a file to print 1:1 at Kinkos for laying track.

Although the learning curve is steep, the program comes with libraries full of standard turnouts, structures, engines and rolling stock will help ease the pain a bit.  What I really love is the ability to view the layout in 3D and run trains to test my designs.  

The program is very complex, but spending some quality time with it will yield amazing results.  There is also a lot of user support via yahoo groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3rdPlanIt/  and a user-oriented web site: http://3rdplanit.com/vbulletin/.

Regards,

Greg 

[BlueHillsCPR]

Why are Trainz so unsuitable? Joe Fugate recommends it and so did MRR planning 2007. I would be interested to know why you think it's bad?

 Magnus

 

If you are using Trainz as a tool to demo the layout you designed in a CAD program I could see it being useful for that.  I could also see it being useful for playing with scenic ideas and structure layout etc.

For what it's worth, I agree 3dPlanIt is overpriced, particularly when you have XTrkCAD for free! 

[garyla]

I bought mine longer ago, around 2004, and maybe it's been upgraded a lot.  But I ran into that steep learning curve myself, and quit trying to fight it.  Maybe it's a lack of dedication and effort on my part, but I've worked with a broad enough variety of programs to recognize a lack of user-friendliness.

Perhaps the improved manual and program are worth whatever the price is, but (after the disappointment with the original product) there's that old suspicion that I'm just throwing good money after bad.  I'd probably feel better by starting fresh with something else!

[Hudson]

I own it as well. Learning curve is steep.

3D Plan It is pretty good at the basic garden variety stuff. BUT as soon as you try to lay out more complex track configurations it can become a nightmare to work with. Not very intuitive at all.

Then again you need to appreciate the complexity of what it is you're trying to design. Also customer support and upgrades have been very good lately. Many upgrades have come out in the last year and from what I understand the manual is going through a much needed overhaul.

In the end, I'll stick with it knowing that what I end up with will fit EXACTLY as designed.

In the end that is a big plus for me.

[Texas Zepher]

I purchased 3D Planit for the MR layout design contest two years ago. It is a nightmare to learn to use.  It is full of foibles (I hessitate to call bugs).  The author responded to my questions quickly until I actually purchased it.  I haven't gotten a single answer since he got my check.  

I often find something that is difficult to use the first time is much better the second.  Not so with this.  I have picked it up and gone through the tutorial three (or four) times now.  It hasn't worked.  I still can't use it effectively.   I regret buying it and highly do not recommend it.

 

[joe-daddy]

Anyone here using 3D PlanIt?

It looks nice but rather expensive. Can you get it from somewhere else but the manufacturer?

Magnus

Hi Magnus, how is the weather in Sweden?

I evaluated many of the popular Cad programs and posted my findings at ths link:

http://wwwjoe-daddy.blogspot.com/2006/12/train-cadd-friend-or-foe.html 

I chose 3pi then, but since then,  I have abandoned Cad as a super time waster and I found the results to be very misleading.  Maintainabilty is very important to me, and Cad will allow you to design and operate a layout that looks and feels superb, only to find it is a nightmare to build and maintain.

Just my 2 cents,

Joe Daddy 

 

[SpaceMouse]

Wasn't me.

I did switch back to XtrkCAD, but you can print it out 1:1 and lay track right on the paper.

I did say that if you use RTS for design and then use EZ track, it doesn't work in the space allotted.

 

 

[jktrains]

Magnus,

You would be better off downloading the software and manual than paying to have it shipped to Sweden. Simply burn the files to a disc so you have them in case of a HD failure.  I'm not familiar with XtraCad, but here's what you can do in 3rdPlanIt

And with the click of the mouse you get a 3D view that can be moved around.

One of the 4H corner modules.

Someone commented (I think it was SpaceMouse?) in a different thread that they gave up on using track planning software becuase they couldn't build exactly what was drawn.  You should never think of the drawing as being the final do all, end all design.  Use it as a guide.  In my case I wanted to make certain what radius would fit and allow certain track layouts and aisleways.  It's also grade for checking grades and clearances.  3rdPlanIt is a very powerful software package.  I've yet to try and design a structure or do much with terrain mapping, but I don;t feel compelled to have to do that since I'm not doing dramatic mountains or valleys.

Download and try the demo.  I'd consider it money well spent if it prevents you from having to tear some trackwork out during construction because you find that things just won't fit like you thought, but could have prevented it by drawing it on 3PI.

[Lillen]

I'd just get the download version then. If remember correctly, the electronic version of the documentation is part of the program. It would much cheaper to print out than to pay double.

 

That is what I would do if I decided to get it due to the price, but I think that still is to much. I will try the demo and if I like it who knows?

Now, I'm off to play with XtraCad.

 

Magnus

[SpaceMouse]

I'd just get the download version then. If remember correctly, the electronic version of the documentation is part of the program. It would much cheaper to print out than to pay double.

[Lillen]

You might want to check your 'facts' before you post. Just checked the 3rd planit site and here's the scoop:
$125 US (821.65 Swedish krone) for internet download
$159.90 US plus $10 US for a total of $169.90 (1105.2 Swedish krone) shipping and handling for a cd of the program, hardcopy manual, PLUS internet download
Remember, as others have said, you're really paying for the developers hard work on the product. No one is getting rich off what is a limited market for a product like this.

 

Yes you are right, my mistake. But I did write " a 150 bucks or something" Not a specific amount, then it just came along during the rest of the discussion. Still that not enough difference to make just want to buy it. If I would buy the 159$ version more shipping would be added then the ten bucks I'm sure, it says it's ten dollars for the US/CANADA. Not Sweden.

 

And  here are some more FACTS that you should check up.

 

Then, you would have to ad 17 dollars for me to pay for the enjoyment of paying taxes in a fixed fee plus another 40 dollars in actual taxes here in Sweden.

So your right it, it would end up costing me roughly 220 dollars plus shipping which would on average from my experience be about another 20 bucks plus taxes, which is another 5. So in conclusion, for a mere 245 dollars I have it. That's cheap isn't it!

 I don't argue that they are getting rich or not who cares. That has absolutely nothing to do with if I will enjoy the product or not! If they make money great.

Magnus

[jackn2mpu]

Sometimes people get confused between cost and value. 3rd PlanIt is far from perfect, but I think there are good reasons that many prefer it over "free" XtraCAD. And if you don't want to pay anything, why are you asking about a commercial product anyway?

 

I never said I wouldn't want to pay anything!

 

There is huge difference between not wanting to buy something for 150$ rather then not paying say 75$. That's why I asked if it was available anywhere else, for example a place like Amazon could have it and sell it at considerable discount. I think 150 is to much when that do not even give me a CD and a manual in physical world. I might pay that for an actual copy, not for a serial code which is all that I'm missing since downloading the demo. You get my point?

 

Magnus:
You might want to check your 'facts' before you post. Just checked the 3rd planit site and here's the scoop:
$125 US (821.65 Swedish krone) for internet download
$159.90 US plus $10 US for a total of $169.90 (1105.2 Swedish krone) shipping and handling for a cd of the program, hardcopy manual, PLUS internet download
Remember, as others have said, you're really paying for the developers hard work on the product. No one is getting rich off what is a limited market for a product like this.

[Lillen]

Mangus,

If anything try the free version to get the look and feel, it is limiting, and you will not be able to save your work, but at least you get a "test drive" before you buy!

Also, should you go with 3rd PlanIt you can always ask anytime here in the forum or shoot me an email from here or from my website I have a "Contact" email link on every page.

Cheers,

Ryan

 

Thanks Ryan, I will check it out. I downloaded it earlier today. I will check it out and see how I like it. The little I did look at it I did like. If I have any problems, and I'm sure I will, you guys will hear from me.

 

Magnus

[SilverSpike]

Mangus,

If anything try the free version to get the look and feel, it is limiting, and you will not be able to save your work, but at least you get a "test drive" before you buy!

Also, should you go with 3rd PlanIt you can always ask anytime here in the forum or shoot me an email from here or from my website I have a "Contact" email link on every page.

Cheers,

Ryan

[SpaceMouse]

If they fixed some of the bugs, then I might consider upgrading. I was told when I bought it that I would be eligible.

The 3d stuff is cool, and I like running the trains through the virtual layout. And I can see where a pro like Byron would want a program that allowed him to show a virtual reality plan to his clients.

I have to admit one of the things that I hated about the program had nothing to do with the program. When I bought it, I paid extra for the manual. When I had a problem I couldn't work out, I first went to the manual to see what it said. I would spend a lot of time looking for the solution.

Then when I couldn't I logged onto the yahoo users group and asked my question. Then over a period of days I would get maybe 5 responses--all of them saying it is in the manual. I should look it up. Never was there a solution or a suggestion, and never did they tell me a page number.    

[Lillen]

Mangus,

Now the learning curve is quite heavy at first but if you touch the product often and just play around with it you start to pick up the tips and tricks here and there. I have started a few short tutorials on my web site for 3rd PlanIt, but need to post more.

The program also has a tutorial that is quite helpful, also the help feature will walk you through some common techniques. Again, it takes some patience and practice, but once you get the hand of it I found it worth the effort.

Cheers,

Ryan

 

Ryan,

 

I checked your website and was impressed, maybe you will be able to change my mind about this program! I'm going to try to close the deal on the extra house tomorrow and then I will see how much cash I can spend on this. Because those are very nice pics on the 3d layout. And the rest of course!

 

Thank you very much for showing me that. That and that it isn't insurmountable to learn how to use it.

 

Magnus