2 x 8 layout contest rules and guidelines

[steinjr]

Yes, I did read the rules, and that's why I initiated this discussion.  The rules artificially set limits on the planning process if I choose to work in my scale.   

But you're totally missing the basic point, that available space is available space!  If I have 2'x8' available, why would I choose to reduce that simply because I'm using a more flexible scale?  The 10x12 contest was a more level playing field, and I think resulted in some very creative designs in both HO and N.

So, you're conceding that in this case, N scale in the same space always produces a better design, so you have to bend rules around it so HO has half a chance...

That's all I wanted to hear!  Thanks!

Lee 

 Well, if all you wanted to hear was "you can fit more in a given area using N scale than H0 scale", you have now heard that. It is a very uncontroversial (and obvious) statement.

  The 10x12 contest was "here is a room of a given size - how would you fill this room with a railroad, in any scale you like".

 This contest is different - it is really: "Design a small agricultural town as a standalone module that could be integrated in a larger layout, town will have to fit within a footprint of about 700 scale feet in length x about 175 scale feet wide- which would 8x2 feet in H0 scale, 13" by 56" in N scale".

  We don't have 2x8 feet available. We have a design contest where you could have designed an agricultural town selectively compressed to about 700x175 scale feet. If you had chosen to participate while submissions were accepted.

 Clear enough ?

 But again - yes - you can fit more in a given space in N scale than you can in H0 scale. And you can fit more in a given space in Z scale than you can in N scale. That is uncontroversial.

 So all good layout designers should chose to go to Z scale instead of big clunky N scale (or even bigger)

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[wm3798]

I dig.  There you go, Stein, keeping my feet on the ground

Let's just be a little more clear in the title and set up of these things. 

And just to back up my smoke with some fire, here's a couple shots of a module that I built that is about 2x8...

Thanks for the lively conversation, gents!

Lee 

[steinjr]

I dig.  There you go, Stein, keeping my feet on the ground

Let's just be a little more clear in the title and set up of these things. 

 I agree.

And just to back up my smoke with some fire, here's a couple shots of a module that I built that is about 2x8...

<images not quoted> 

 Beautiful ! You wouldn't want to come over on vacation to Norway for maybe a decade or two and build something like this for meg for free ?

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[vsmith]

 

Mouse watch - day 3

 

[SpaceMouse]

Lee,

I think you are taking this contest thing way too seriously. It's not about scalism, it about solving a puzzle and who can do it best.

Sure given the space you can do more with N. And if you had warehouse you could do it better. And if you had a necromancer you could dig up John Armstrong and pay him to do it for you.

It's just a game and the rules are meant to level the playing field. That's it. It's a game.  

[wm3798]

After a lengthy conversation I can see now what the point of the exercise is (was?).  I saw 2x8, and I thought that meant, well... 2 x 8.

Obviously 2x8 means different things to different people...

"Some animals are more equal than others..." 

Lee 

[ICRR1964]

 

Welcome to the third layout contest.

Size: 24" x 96" 

somewhere in or about a small agricultural town

no era limitations or location limits (in other words, it can be any time or place a railroad existed)

HO scale  is specified, but N-scale can used if it is scaled down to 13" x 52"

So in other words 13" by 52" for the N scale size does not apply as you say then, even though it was spelled out in the rules. Hmmm, Lee is it me or are you still fishing for something in your comments from your last post.

[wm3798]

I already said I read the stated "rules", the point of my original inquiry was to question the reason for changing the basic size requirement for an N scale design.  I'm satisfied now that this is an HO-centric exercise, and that if one were to submit an N scale plan, it has to basically be an HO plan, because the size parameter for N prohibits the N scale designer from working in his scale to its fullest advantage.

I understand how it works, no fishing here!

Lee 

[Geared Steam]

Here is my submission, its G scale on a 2 x 8 because I don't want the n-scalers to have all the fun. 

 

 

[marknewton]

Sorry to come in late, but I haven't had a chance to properly read the forums for a few days. I think that others have more than adequately addressed Lee's complaint about the rules of the contest, so I won't offer any further comment on that.

In the given space of 2'x8', an HO scale modeler can represent the proposed farm community scene ... Using the same space and the same concept, the N scale model railroader can do all of the above, plus create a creek meandering in the foreground, winding through a cow pasture, the siding can hold a 20 car train, the grain elevator can be closer to scale height and serve 12 cars instead of 2, The town can consist of 10 buildings instead of four, and the railroad can look like it is running through a pasture instead of through a narrow slice of scenery.

Lee, I understand that these are your preferred features for a layout, but since the contest emphasis is on designing for operation, I'd question how useful some of these features would be. The long siding and scale-size elevator are worth having, but to many of us, the meandering creek, cow pasture and town are just window dressing, and are dispensable. If the emphasis was on model-building, I'd agree that these would be desirable features to include.

The engineering would actually be BETTER because the turnouts could be longer, the sidings more realistically long, and there'd be more room to effectively switch the industries.

Absolutely, but now your emphasis is on operations over scenery. I get the feeling you can't make up your mind which is more important to you?

If I were to model in N scale, I'd exploit that aspect, rather than the scenic treatment.

Designing a layout requires a whole lot more than sticking track down to make a switching puzzle. The idea is to create a plausibly realistic scene (at least in my opinion) and effectively capture the atmosphere of the railroad's environment, not just a representative slice of it.

I think that entirely depends on what your modelling objectives are. I only model enough scenery to provide context for the trains and to indicate I'm modelling a very foreign country, nothing more. I've seen layouts that utterly captured the atmosphere of the railroad's environment, but were deadly dull to operate. My all-time favourite model railway had no scenery at all apart from ballast and weeds, but it captured the essence of the railway's operation brilliantly. I think there's many ways to approach this idea, and that yours won't suit all tastes, any more than mine will.

A good track plan should take into account the aesthetics of the railroad and its surroundings, not just the track arrangement.

To me, that comes under the heading of whole layout design, not track planning. In my view the track plan should address operational issues, not aesthetics.

N scale, I believe, accomplishes this with the most success.

Well, there we'll have to agree to disagree. For every N scale layout I've seen that created a plausible, realistic scene - and I've seen a few - there must be ten that simply cram the maximum amount of track into the minimum amount of space, with no attempt to place the railway into it's surroundings.

Judging by your very jazzy layout photos*, you practice what you preach, but I think you're in a minority among N scale modellers.

All the best,

Mark.


* I've always had a bit of a soft spot for the Wild Mary. I like what you're doing, and I'm impressed that you're working in N.

[wm3798]

Well, there we'll have to agree to disagree. For every N scale layout I've seen that created a plausible, realistic scene - and I've seen a few - there must be ten that simply cram the maximum amount of track into the minimum amount of space, with no attempt to place the railway into it's surroundings.

Those jam packed N scale layouts are built by recently converted HO guys...  They love that stuff!

 

Judging by your very jazzy layout photos*, you practice what you preach, but I think you're in a minority among N scale modellers.

All the best,

Mark.


* I've always had a bit of a soft spot for the Wild Mary. I like what you're doing, and I'm impressed that you're working in N.

Thanks for your analysis, and your kind words.  I enjoy the operations aspect of model railroading as much as the next guy, I guess it's my artistic side that rejects the notion that an empty canvas is a completed project.

Lee 

[vsmith]

Here is my submission, its G scale on a 2 x 8 because I don't want the n-scalers to have all the fun. 

 

 

[vsmith]

Mousewatch - day 4

[Texas Zepher]

But you're totally missing the basic point, that available space is available space!  If I have 2'x8' available, why would I choose to reduce that simply because I'm using a more flexible scale?

NO, we keep saying it and YOU are the one who is missing the point.   THERE IS NO AVAILABLE SPACE!   Scale is not a variable in this contest.

[tomikawaTT]

Gentlemen!

In case you haven't noticed, the contest deadline is history.  At this point, discussion about the rules ranks with a discussion of the impact of hanging chads on the 2000 election.

IMHO, for the next contest (if there is one) the limiting dimensions should be given in Armstrong Squares, thereby making the playing field level for everyone from ZZZ-scale to Live Steam.

Incidentally, I didn't enter the contest, so I feel I can be impartial on the matter.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[wm3798]

HO hum

[vsmith]

day 5 of Mousewatch

[vsmith]

Day 6

[vsmith]

day 7&8, any word from Spacemouse? Has he gone awol...?

[SpaceMouse]

I'm almost done.  Hopefully by the end of the evening.

[ICRR1964]

AHHHH, the mouse lives. Welcome back Space Mouse, I take it you have been busy?

[wheeler]

I am hoping to see the other entrants. During this "waiting period" I went back over my layout, and mentally caught 2 mistakes I will discuss them when all of the plans are up for voting.

Here's hoping I do not get "railed" too much over them...

[SpaceMouse]

Okay Guys,

Check them out and if they are okay, we'll put them up for a vote tomorrow.

2 x 8 Contest

[stilson4283]

Industy, random, and unknown none of the pictures worked for me.  I checked in IE and Firefox and nothing in either.

Chris

Lancaster, CA 

[steinjr]

Okay Guys,

Check them out and if they are okay, we'll put them up for a vote tomorrow.

2 x 8 Contest

 Layouts 4, 8 and 9 - thumbnail on front page is there, but image on main page does not display (at least not for me).

 Layout 3 refers to aerial pics in text, but no link to pics from page.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, Anything else?

Those were pretty glaring

[Texas Zepher]

It says 2x8 in the title but says 4x8 on the first line. 

And well, you don't have my entry.  I guess that will sort of give away which one it is.  Originally sent 2/3.  I just resent.

[chadw]

My entries aren't there so I'll resend them.  The ones there look good!

[SpaceMouse]

Okay TZ, Chad I'll add them in the morning. Sorry about that.

I now have both plans.

Did I miss anyone else?

[chadw]

You should have my entries now.  I had sent them in early.  The first was sent on January 31 and the others the next day.

Thanks, Chad