well i thought i was happy with a new design and plan, a multi decker w/ 3 helix's...all in a 10 x 10 space, but, the more i thought about it i realized i didnt like the plan. it was a true point to point. it was all about operations which i love. enough switching to enable 3 operators, or three different trains for me to run to keep things different. BUT.....like always ater looking at it for a few days, i wasn't happy with it, another design popped in my head!!. i seem to be stuck in a rut with planning or actually deciding i should say. i have a few notebooks with over 75 designs/themes/layouts i have drawn up, (spanning a few years worth)a few of them hold excellent operation possibilities, yet im lacking in a few areas,,such as wiring, and well funny enough i am AWFUL at making structures, my 7 year old son can probably do better than me!! LOL! so taking on a larger layout for me is most likely not the smartest route. i have been in this hobby for about 6 years and have had a quite a few decent layouts, learning alot from each one.. but soon after i build all the benchwork and get the track up and running and some scenery..i lose interesst and tear it all down. i feel that i am now proficient at benchwork, tracklaying, planning/design and well mediocre at scenery. i know i need to just decide on a small layout and go with it so i can learn how to make structures and make them good...but im just stuck in deciding!!!! the dilemma: i design a plan that im really pumped about but the next night i look at it and i just want to design somthing else...i cant stay focussed on one perticular layout!! lol I model mainly in N scale, but i don't know how on earth people get so much detail in n scale. (my hands are shakey from a injury suffered in iraq) my family and i own/live in a 800 square foot house so a ho scale layout would have to be small, and im afraid i would lose interest in operations of such a small layout. i do have a 10 x 10 shed, in which i was going to house my layout in, but again it seems large and with my current lacking skills of structures, im afraid it would be wasting time/money i dont have to waste.
so i guess to sum up this rambling here, im wondering if i should just settle on a small ho scale shelf layout so i can learn to build structures, and learn to super detail and to enjoy ome small operations. maybe then i can hope a theme for a larger layout will grab me and not let go.
does this seem like the reasonable thing to do? a small ho scale urban switching/shelf layout?
does anyone else have this problem that i seem to suffer from for the past 6 years? being indecisive, never being satisfied with a plan/theme/layout??
sorry for the rambling here, but im hopin for some advice!!! thanks!!
Joe
Modeling:
Providence & Worcester Railroad
"East Providence Secondary"
HO scale
Build something ... anything. Leave a place to connect it to the next something. Once you are running trains, you will get more ideas. Impliment them one at a time as they occur to you.
A layout is a never ending project. Don't try to plan it to the end in the first session. Get started.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Chartiers wrote:Joe, I think your idea of building a small HO layout with buildings, with scenery, and with details, is a good one.
C:
So do I. If inspiration is needed, pick up a copy of THE HO RAILROAD THAT GROWS. The railroad itself in that book is no masterpiece, but the philosophy is excellent.
Thanks guys.. i appreciate your advice! I think i will pursue a small ho scale urban shelf layout. a few pop up in my mind, the third street industrial district (47 top notch track plans) as well as another track plan featured in that book called railroading for city lovers. i really like the idea of having very active mainline, with a interchange for some fun/challenging operations without fouling up the mainline. i will also do some searching to find some other layouts to give me some more ideas. if anyone has a similar plan or ideas, please share!! Thank you
I'll put in a pitch for modules. They're (usually) cheap and easy to construct and they're small enough so you can get something up and running pretty quickly although not a continuous run (usually).
The thing is you can work on one or many, add / change / delete them without ripping up a lot of other work and while you can build an enormous layout with modules, you're not faced with an enormous construction job all at once. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time...
Oh, and you can change your trackplan right in the middle of building your layout without a whole lot of heartache.
Joe,
I think if you check out Lance Mindheims shelf layout, you would be surprised as I was at the amount of detail that can be achieved in a shelf layout only about 18 inches deep. I know I have scaled down what I want several times. Simpler is sometimes better.
www.lancemindheim.com/
Larry
Larry, Thank your for the link and advice! i have always been AMAZED at Lance's work. i didn't know he had another website besides his business one, i'll definately check it out, Thank you!
You're not in this boat by yourself. After reading your post it sounded like me writing it.
Last summer I took apart a 15'x19' E shaped layout and started a smaller 14'x16' rectangular one. After building the tables, temporarily, I ran three loops with some switching, made of Atlas True Track for the grandkids during the holidays. Although it is not the exact layout plan I was going with, there was the issue of ducking under the layout to get into the center that quickly became a pain.
I'm now in the process of planning something smaller that I can walk around and be more comfortable with.
The suggestions that have been given are great!
Bill
I sympathize with your planning dilemma having been there myself. But if you can't look at a plan for more than a few days before falling out of love with it then not building is the right thing to not do...
Someone mentioned modules which seem reasonable given your circumstances. Especially if there's a modular club somewhere nearby. Speaking of clubs, here's another way to do the things you're good at while someone else does the things you've trouble with. If you don't want the 'freeway around the perimeter' look there's fremo. Wolfgang Dudler has a bunch of fremo modular meet pictures on his West Port Terminal website.
http://www.westportterminal.de/
And I think you were wise to not try to build a triple decker in a 10'x10' space with three helixes. You'd wind up with the helixes completely dominating the layout. It would be more of an engineering feat than a layout.
You also mentioned that the 10'x10' space is in a shed. Model railroads tend to not like extremes of temperature and humidity. Did I see that you're in Rhode Island? Unless you insulate and heat that shed I'd expect you to have temperature related issues...
Regards,
Charlie Comstock
I believe Lance is building a even larger Florida layout according to the website. I was in Fort Lauderdale (Port Lauderdale) several times while leaving on cruises to the Caribbean and couldn't help but notice the extremely large fuel depot located near Lake Mable which is going to be the focal point for my shelf layout. The place was probably bustling during the 60's and 70's. If you go to Fort Lauderdale industries and use the satelite imagery button, you can zoom down and see much of the old trackage that once encirculed the complex. Much of the railroad trackage has given way to commerical and industrial building. My new layout will try to capture a small portion of the action.
This is why I use the modular approach. I can at least run trains now, and expand later as I have time and space. Although I aquired a new basement (house) two years ago, my new layout space still has the small modular layout which I moved from my previous home. My job takes me "on the road" for long periods of time and it is difficult to get motivated about my dream layout when I can't be home on a frequent basis to work on it. I have just ordered lumber to construct two large staging yards. (I think the guy at the lumer yard thought that I was some kind of "nut case" as I requested six sheets of plywood to be cut into lumber.) Not only do I plan on getting the staging yards in operation, I will construct several modules that I can take on the road with me. These modules will be industries for the big layout. The modules will allow me to constuct, detail and operate these as a small shelf layout while I am away from home. I will eventually take them back home and incorproate them into the basement layout.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Bill, well good to hear im not alone....but yet BAD there we are in this boat!!!! lets hope we can get out of it soon!!! this past weekend i dismantled my n scale shelf layout because i was so sick of it, and operating it. it lived a prosperous life of 6 months...but the companies along side the track decided to demolish everything....lol!!!
Charlie, thanks for the advice. Yes i do live in RI, and the weather like all the northeast is bad in the winter and hot in the summer. the plan was for me to insulate and get power to the shed to keep it climate controlled. but then i had a reality check...at this point n this hobby for me, i cant whole heartidly use the money me and my wife barely have to finish the shed off, and build a layout i wouldnt be happy with, my poorly made structures and all!! so for the time being i will be having a point-to-point shelf layout inside our bedroom. thank you for the link, i saw the "third street industrial district" layout actually built! but I'm now leaning back towards a small RI short line industrial railroad called the seaview railroad in davisville.
heres a pic of the real seaview interchanging with the providence and worcester railroad to give you an idea...
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=2007103012323619232.jpg&order=byrail&page=4&key=Seaview%20Railroad
its got great operations written all over it! its a 7 mile industrial railroad with 9 customers that i know of. so now i have to go back to my several plans i have drawn up of this railroad, do some compressing, and hopefully be content with a track plan and operations. i think having a live interchange with another railroad and 9 (but i will only model a few...most likely 4-5)customers should keep me busy and happy.....i hope!! i will build it in small sections taking my time..
Thank you all for some great advice thus far. if anyone is reading this and wants to contribute, or share your story, feel free to, its greatly appreciated to kno that im not alone!!
Do you need to have any kind of layout to build structures?
You could mount individual structures on a small base. Build kits that interest you rather then worry about where they would go. Once you did build a layout, you could easily move the structures to it. Perhaps building some structures will give you inspiration on the design of your next layout.
I have a few kits I am going to build before I move on to the kits for my small n-scale 3x5 "test" layout. They have no place on it.. but are inexpensive small brick buildings that will help me develop skills I will need to make the two kits going on the layout.
Chris
I've been sketching plans for the new layout since we decided to buy this house back in Spring 2006. I've finally decided that rather than try to cram all my ideas together on one layout, I'm going to build a double-deck layout with each deck being in essence a separate model RR: The upper a 12" shelf layout which will emphasize northern MN iron ore operations and be point-to-point (well staging-to-point), it will widen out at one point to allow an iron ore receiving yard and roundhouse/turntable and engine facilities, and feature switching of ore cars to and from the ore dock, and making up and breaking down trains which will run to and from staging; and the lower level, largely a 16" shelf layout which will probably be double-track continuous run mainline (widening out to around 6' to allow "dogbone" loops) featuring more Twin Cities type railroading - long passenger trains, grain trains, piggyback trains, and a fair amount of wayfreight switching.
But from experience, I know I can only plan down to a certain level of detail, at some point I have to have move stuff around and try different things before deciding where each building and siding etc. will go - and even then, I might move things around a time or two before I'm satisfied.
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
Having made numerous layout designs for both my current home with a large basement, my old home with a smaller basement, and an apartment with a 10x11 spare bedroom, I have come to one conclusion. There is no such thing as a perfect layout design. No matter how much space we have, we are always going to want more railroad and more features than we have room for. At some point, you have to accept that whatever you come up with isn't going to have everything you want. That's why I am a firm believe in John Armstrongs approach of givens and druthers. The givens are the things that absolutely must be incorporated in any design. The druthers are the things we'd like to have if space permits. Your design should begin with the givens. Make sure those get in. Then look at the druthers and prioritize them and decide which are the most important and be prepared to jetison the rest. You might not have room for as large a classification or staging yard as you wanted, or your large passenger station might have to get by with 4 tracks instead of the 5 or 6 you wanted. Maybe it's a loads in/empties out operation that looks fascinating but is difficult to work into your schematic. (The last one was a big hang for me on some of my early design efforts). Layout planning is all about learning to compromise with yourself. Get as much of what you want in the space you have to work with and then go for it. And along the way, be flexible enough to change your plans as new ideas occur to you.
Joe, even after a few layouts I restricted the size of my current project so I too could get to that point where I can super-datail. So Start off small and make it expandable or stike it up as a learning project. But never remove, dissmantle, or salvage the old layout until your new project is operational. You have to be able to run trains and switch from time to time.
I can think of two good examples of starting small and building onto the original;
John Allens Gore and Depheted(spelling). His original layout was in the middle of his layout. It housed a few landmark hobby structures like his enginehouse and the bridge accross the front.
Bob Grech. He used a trackplan from the '80 MR project Jerome and South Western, then expanded on it. Look him up on this forum. He has a current thread called "layout pics". He has some very good looking models.
John
Thanks for the advice guys!! i know i made a mistake when i dismantled the layout i already had...for the same reason that was mentioned, without a layout to operate on i will grow antsy and will want to rush through things to get up and running. BUT..i did make a small ho scale roundy rounder layout for my 7 year old son with 2 spurs, so im sure he wont mind if i join him on his "missions" (what he calls switching LOL!!). its good to hear that this is pretty common, when i first started making real layouts, i was a true roundy rounder with a few spurs here and there, but it got boring quick without true operations and purpose. i have learned ALOT..which i guess is all part of the big picture and the hobby. like i said, its good to hear im not alone! i will try to get a track plan up on the forum here in the next few days of what i am planning on doing. basically its a condensed version of the seaview railroad, i've compressed the 6 track yard into 3 tracks, not including the main and run around track, hiding the dead end of the yard (the real one connects back to the yard lead) under a overpass (very common i know..) that actually exists further down the yard, and i will use the good ol' mirror trick to give some more depth to the yard. its amazing how much of an effect the mirror has on the yard!! i will also represent the engine shed, and a few of the daily customers. the link i provided in an earlier post shows almost 200 pictures, and they all explain the customers names, and what service they get from the Railroad. i feel its a solid plan for phase I. i will have a live interchange with another road, 3 industries to get some operations in, AND most importantly,i can learn how to build detailed structures. all of this in HO scale in a space 6'10" x 18" with a 4' L and i still have more room to expand later.
i guess i am human by saying im very reluctant to build structures, its my biggest weakness, i have always been dissatisfied with my work. most likely because i never had the right tools and right mind set to do the job. i now have plenty of different exacto blades, sanding papers, metal magnetized blocks and a cookie sheet for forming the buildings, some good artist brushes (not the wally world value pack) now all i need is to get busy i guess!! AND take my time...theres no rush!!I am very motivated to learn, and i want to be able to create structures in high quality, that i can be proud to show or take pictures of and show. thank you everyone forr the advice and inspiring comments its great to hear!
well, heres my track plan......the minimum radius will be a tiny 18", all turnouts will be #4 or the smallest size. track i plan to have micro engineering code 70. some of the industries might have to be scratchbuilt,, so i will have alot of opportunity to learn. seeing as the structures wont be large, i dont think it will be to pricey to learn how to do this. the runaround track is small..and theres only room for the engine to really squeeze through under the overpass..but i only plan on having 4-5 cars being brought in on the interchange. heres the other thing about the interchange....i will have to manually simulate it (i can live with that). one of the engines the seaview uses is a EMD SW-7 http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=200709051257219692.jpg&order=byrail&page=11&key=Seaview%20Railroad so this will be easy to replicate.
heres a picture of one of the industries i will replicate on this phase: all american foods
http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?photo=200709071214439285.jpg&order=byrail&page=11&key=Seaview%20Railroad
so,,,YES i am happy with this plan, if you would like to critique it, feel free to. this is the only space i will work with at this time. i feel the shed should be off limits until i can get some more skill.
EDIT: image fixed BTW... i drew the plan with RTS, i then did a printscreen and pasted it in MS paint to add the roads and buildings and text
There isn't much room to pull cars off the All American Foods spur. Looks like enough room to pull one car, two at most before you foul the switch. But maybe you want that as an operational challenge.
I'd be inclined to shorten the AAF spur and lengthen the yard tracks, probably by shifting everythig to the right a bit if possible. I do like the plan though.
Just my opinion...
Nucat, yes that is a short lead coming off the spur for the switchback, but i was wanting a operational challenge with the AAF spur, mainly to add a few more moves to make the job last a little longer! Trico will be getting/able to handle 2 bulk/covered hoppers and will have a few in the yard for when needed. AAF will be getting 1 box a day, as well as BB &s getting one load a day. i figure by adding a short lead coming off the spur, it would add at least 1-2 more moves, lengthening the session a bit. im just hoping it doesnt become a pain in the butt and i get sick of it!! lol!! im hoping to be able to move the yard to the right a bit more, the way im figuring i will only be able to hold maybe 8-10 cars in the yard at most. i did mess around with a 15" radius in RTS, but i think it would be way to sharp and would be just UGLY!!! Thanks for the input and advice, its greatly appreciated!
Will you be scratch building the food plant? It looks pretty straight forward for that sort of construction.
Larry, yes I was thinking of scratchbuilding the AA foods building, it doesnt look to complex, pretty basic actually! it will be a great way to start learning basic scratchbuilding techniques and also be a unique building for the layout which will finally give a layout of mine some "local" feel.
OPTION II: here's another variation of the same plan...
the reason why i made another variation is because the mainline would be at the back of the layout..on the left of the layout is a closet..with the main line being up against the wall, i can tunnel through the closet (about 8 feet) to the other side going into the living room where i could make a small 2 track staging yard so i can have a real live interchangeand a link to the outside world for real. HOWEVER!!!! i do know the downside to this is having a long reach to the interchange and runaround track. (18" at 57" high) i know its not a great idea to have the yard arrangd like this, i remember reading about it in the 2001 MRP and other articles as well. i would also have to have the switch throws under the layout, if not i would have to reach over the AAF building. i would most likely go with rods under the layout to the switches push/pull operation.
should i make this sacrifice for better operation purposes and go against the rule?
thoughts and comments are always welcome!
I like the first plan and there are a couple of minor tweaks, that in my opinion, you can do to improve upon it some more.
One is to try to not run tracks exactly parallel to the front edge of the layout. Your software may not be this flexible so it is what it is. But by using slight angles, curves and jogs you add some interest and it makes the space look bigger and more realistic.
You can also save a little space by eliminating the engine house. Often times small shortlines don't have engine houses and they simply park the engine out in the open. Build a small building or put an old caboose up on blocks near the spot to use as an office. Have an accessible parking area nearby for the fuel truck, too.
I think starting with a smaller and manageable shelf layout like this is an excellent way to start because it will be relatively easy to 'complete' it and not feel so overwhelmed with the amount of things to do or space to fill.
BTW: On my two-rail O-scale switching layout it took me many months to come up with the right track plan. But when I did I knew it. It was pretty exciting, actually, to finally hit upon the right plan for me and the space allocated.
My tipping point was all those fine Walthers Kits sitting unbuilt. And a purchase of a small glass topped table for building them on.
That was 4 months ago. Now the layout gets built around them in my space. I have definate plans for future but for right now, getting those basic buildings in place and track laid to them has priority.
Maybe I run a helix. Maybe not.
If I can do it, anyone can and I am a dummy incompare at layout construction.
Good luck!
mammay76 wrote: well, heres my track plan......the minimum radius will be a tiny 18", all turnouts will be #4 or the smallest size. track i plan to have micro engineering code 70. some of the industries might have to be scratchbuilt,, so i will have alot of opportunity to learn. seeing as the structures wont be large, i dont think it will be to pricey to learn how to do this. the runaround track is small..and theres only room for the engine to really squeeze through under the overpass..but i only plan on having 4-5 cars being brought in on the interchange. heres the other thing about the interchange....i will have to manually simulate it (i can live with that). so,,,YES i am happy with this plan, if you would like to critique it, feel free to. this is the only space i will work with at this time. i feel the shed should be off limits until i can get some more skill.
well, heres my track plan......the minimum radius will be a tiny 18", all turnouts will be #4 or the smallest size. track i plan to have micro engineering code 70. some of the industries might have to be scratchbuilt,, so i will have alot of opportunity to learn. seeing as the structures wont be large, i dont think it will be to pricey to learn how to do this. the runaround track is small..and theres only room for the engine to really squeeze through under the overpass..but i only plan on having 4-5 cars being brought in on the interchange. heres the other thing about the interchange....i will have to manually simulate it (i can live with that).
Suggestion: run your mainline (red in figure below) down along the center line of the two shelves (or along center line of largest shelf and close to wall on the other shelf).
Why ? Then you can branch off both towards the wall and towards the aisle. Put the yard tracks closest to the aisle, industries along the wall, on the far side of the mainline.
Also, I suggest not having switchbacks on the ends of the main. By all means - have some spurs that are facing spurs relative to traffic, so you need to do runaround moves.
But branch them off in such a way that spurs goes towards the end of the shelves, not from the end of the shelves towards the middle - allows you to use the main part of the main as a switching lead when switching these spurs.
An illustration of the concept:
Smile, Stein