Hi, this is my first draft and also the first time I used this program so please bear that in mind. The room is 8 meter by 4,5 meters. No curve is less then 36". I'll be using Atlas #8 turnouts. The plan is designed to watch trains but with a large possibility to run a little bit more realistic trans. This is what I need help with. One more thing, there will be at least one more passing siding added.
Where the track descends and just ends in nowhere is where the staging yard is. It will be as big as the top layer and will be designed so that trains can just run and come back in a giant loop to loop. Please note that not all industries are placed yet and will consist of among other things the coke retort from Walther's and a lot of other stuff. The dockside will have the huge crane from walthers.
Trains to be able to be run here is long, at least 10 passenger cars are a requirement. Any help would be appreciated on what is good and what is bad.
Magnus
2 things that I would change, both on the center penisula.
1st is to add a 2nd mainline around the right end to eliminate mainline fouling from your north yard.
2nd is to move the connecting track between the north and south yards more to the left. The south-most yard track on your north yard has 8 sections of straight track while the north most track on the south yard has 3 sections (this spur points directly towards your TT tracks). If you shift that connecting turnout left about 2 sections you gain about an equal amount on the south yard.
Magnus, I like you, I really do, but I have to say I am very disappointed that in all this trackwork you haven't found a place for a single double slip switch.
Okay, I am kidding.................. but only just....
Seriously, though, where you have the two tracks at lower left coming very close to one another in your loop, along the leftmost curve, I would advise you to separate them quite a bit more for realism and for keeping items from contacting each other. You'll need a hedgerow, trees, a fence, something between them to create a bit of an illusion that they are not on the same loop.
-Crandell
Geez, I can't get over that.....not one double slip......sheeesh......miles and miles of yard tracks and he doesn't want to get from one to another.....not even once! Tsk! I should send him some images of passenger terminal tracks with many double slips visible in the images.
selector wrote: Magnus, I like you, I really do, but I have to say I am very disappointed that in all this track work you haven't found a place for a single double slip switch. Okay, I am kidding.................. but only just....Seriously, though, where you have the two tracks at lower left coming very close to one another in your loop, along the leftmost curve, I would advise you to separate them quite a bit more for realism and for keeping items from contacting each other. You'll need a hedgerow, trees, a fence, something between them to create a bit of an illusion that they are not on the same loop.-CrandellGeez, I can't get over that.....not one double slip......sheeesh......miles and miles of yard tracks and he doesn't want to get from one to another.....not even once! Tsk! I should send him some images of passenger terminal tracks with many double slips visible in the images.
Magnus, I like you, I really do, but I have to say I am very disappointed that in all this track work you haven't found a place for a single double slip switch.
I'm sorry that I let you down!
I will get some of those in there. If only just for you, this is after all just a simple draft. The most important part is the mainline and how long I can make the yards and how they fit in. The specifics are not yet established. I don't think they will be before I start laying track in the real world. And of course before I do that I have to build the room it self which won't be possible until April at the earliest.
About the track needed to be more separated. They will be. I'm not an expert with this program yet some I so far have used it to get a general idea. I'll be using flex track so that I get some, well flexibility.
I will See if I can ad another mainline around the yards.
Crandell, I think I'm going to look into those fast track jigs that you talked about before. With all of these turnouts they will become a cheap alternative.
Thanks for the advice both of you. I will be posting more versions as they come along. Any other general thoughts of the plan it self?
As stated above, the biggest thing that hit me was the potential to add a double-track mainline for run-around, to avoid bottlenecks, and to increase mainline operations with multiple train consists, and even the photographic opportunities of "train meets."
A second mainline track could also be placed on a slightly higher scenic level, say 6 inches higher, in many layout portions, not necessarily "an exact parallel" to the other mainline track, and could even provide bridges for scenic effect.
Three "Ask Yourself" Questions:
I know that until my recent purchase of "How To Build Realistc Layouts - Freight Yards" and in particular, Byron Henderson's 6-page article, "A baker's dozen yard ideas for design and operation," I would never have gone out of my way to ask those (3) above questions even to myself. But, I am now.
$7.95 USD => https://secure.kalmbach.com/offer/Default.aspx?c=IF77M3
As I continue to fine-tune the Conemaugh Road & Traction, I am paying particular attention to these "baker's dozen" ideas. For example, in my 1956 era, since there are Pennsylvania Railroad staging yards, there will be one track reserved for PRR cabin cars. In other words, there will be dedicated caboose storage in the middle of the yard as an auxiliary track.
Listed are only the highlights from Byron Henderson's (13) suggestions:
Thus, it is all about going through the process...
While I do not pretend to be "an end-all" track planning expert, it could be a beneficial exercise for you, to ask yourself just as I am now asking myself, the above (13) questions, as you are continue to fine-tune your layout. After reviewing Byron Henderson's article, I find myself going back over my paper sketches asking these questions. I also have a better grasp of what to look for when reviewing someone else's trackplan.
I was really struck by the generous amount of space, you actually do have for staging, unlike many of us. You are in a position to have in-depth yard operations. Nice work!
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Hi everyone, thanks for all the advice.
I will address a few issues that have been brought up.
First of all see this as a rough estimate on what will fit, not an exact copy of what will be.
* I'm quite bad with this program yet. So tracks are straight because I do not know how to lay flex track yet. The track will curve around a little.
* I'm thinking of adding a second table above these but not above the peninsula, that would create hills to climb and I'm considering doing them with smaller radius to force me to use smaller engines.
* The track will never be allowed to closer then 10 cm from the edge except perhaps on a few tight spots at curves. Then I will ad something to stop them from falling down.
* The double main on the peninsula. You guys are right. I will have to squeeze that in. Now on a good note, I spoke to my uncle today who is gonna help me build this house. I will be able to ad another 2*5 meters to it which will make this rather easily.
* The yards and a plan. I'll confess, a lot of the tracks there is just there because I wanted to see how much I could get in there. I have the freight yard book and I will use that as a guide. The northern part is more calculated. It's built for long passenger trains to stop and then move on without breaking up. The tracks that doesn't allow this are supposed to be used as storage and locals that will be rearranged by a switch engine. It will be redone though as I get a better idea of what is needed.
* I will as industries in between the yards. I already have the coke retort and gas works built and ready for deployment. I also want to ad dome local industries along the mainline on it's way to the staging yard.
* I will try to ad a better track plan as soon as I can. Please do continue to ad comments to this since this is the "basic idea" that I'm working on. That idea is to allow trains to run and loop to loop without looking like they do.
Thank you all and Happy new year from Sweden(It's 2008 now)
I'm glad I read that last post. I was wondering about the large yard areas.
Now that you've figured out the track program and how the track will lie, maybe it time to start working your vision into the equations.
What are you modeling? What era? What industries are you planning to model? How large are they (what's the footprint of the model?) How does the track-work need to address the model?
But the main thing is, are the elements that you really want to see, the stuff you imagine a model railroad should be, included in the plan?
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
It looks like massive amounts of straight parallel track. Parallel to both other tracks, the edges of the benchwork, and the walls of the room. You stated your goal for this was train watching, but it seems to me all you will be watching is trains running past seas of other train cars sitting in a yard, or down a wall line.
I don't see any reason or need for two such massive yards on a layout this size. My club layout is probably 4 times this sized and probably about the same amount of yard space. What is the operating plan. Bring a train into the large yard, break it down, make up a new train run around the pennesula and break it down in the next yard.
The industrial area in the center is puzzling since that is the most important place to be able to reach equipment. Once again on our layout after we ran for a while an learned we re-designed so that the mains were toward the rear and the industrial tracks were up close to the isles so they were easier to reach and we weren't having to reach over running main-line trains. On the other hand having the industrial area available from two separate towns could allow them to be treated as two totally separate industries.
Do you really want to watch trains run through yards, or do you want some scenery? I don't see much space here for scenery at all.
Scenery possible in a yard:
Scenery possible with just a few tracks through the country side:
Magnus,
I know you like some big steam. The peninsula yard seems to have so many tracks jammed into the real estate, that you have left out some area for a nice engine facility. Coal tipple, water tank/ and or column, ash pit and conveyor, sand house, sanders and any inspection platforms. It's great having track galore, but don't shortchange yourself on scenery. I believe Crandall mentioned the track separation and scenery issue also.
I would also consider a turn table and storage large enough to handle that B&O EM1 when if is ever done.
I haven't even studied any of the other operational aspects of the rest of the plan. This was just my first impression.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Space mouse, Texas Zepher, thank you for your input.
Texas Zepher, I get your points. I will address these issues since I can see your point. I will probably remove 50-75% of the south yard to be able to include the industries closer to the sides of the peninsula. one thing though, the tracks are straight because I Don't really know how to work the program.
Something that I would really like some help with from all of you is how to design the bench work to allow maximum running time. If anyone have a good idea how to make the best use out of a room which is 450 cm * 1000 cm I would really apreciate it. I think most of the info of what I like is in the above posts but here are my goals:
* Being able to run trains in a loop manner but never seeing them on the same lever besides each other because of the need to do so.
* Passenger trains are my cup of tea. I like them long, 3 meter long trains are a must.
* I want a large staging yard, both for operations and storage.
* I want some industries, a coal mine(New River), the walthers coke retort and gas works(including the crane) and some other random small industries.
* I want a large turntable and roundhouse.
* I want to have a large vessel like this: http://www.bearcomarine.com/Wettstein.htm
* Minimum turnouts are #8's, potentially #6's on small industry tracks.
* Minimum curves 36", possibly 24" on a small branch.
I want all of you to know how much I apreciate this. I need this kind of feedback so that I can plan this as good as possible before committing to the layout.
Thanks, Magnus
Lillen wrote: Passenger trains are my cup of tea. I like them long, 3 meter long trains are a must.
What passenger trains do you already have, or do you just mean passenger trains in general? Will you will have lots of passenger trains for just one railroad, or many passenger trains from different railroads?
Being able to run trains in a loop manner but never seeing them on the same lever besides each other because of the need to do so.
I think you might have to either compromize on some of the technical requirements, or eliminate some of the itmes on the have-to-have list.
Ok, first what era.
I model the 50's. I have the California zephyr(15 cars) and the Santa Fe super chief(14 cars). I also have a large collection of walthers heavyweights, 14 UP and around 40 B&O. This is what I like and I like to run them as large as possible.
Other things that I have that is taken into considerations are Big boys, I have a few of them and I like to run them.
I was thinking of adding the roundhouse on the peninsula within the loop. But I have also considered letting the peninsula make contact with the other bench to the right of it since that would give me my more space.
I guess I could remove the restriction of the same level, just as long as their is a bit of vertical difference in between them, like on you very nice picture of the bridge over the canyon. That is how I have it on my current layout.
As to the industries, I do not have very high demands on how accurate they are depicted, I have the coke retort from walthers as well as the rest of the gas works series, as I see it, both the gas tank and the electrical station can be placed out of reach once placed. But sure enough they do take a lot of real estate. The boat is probable the biggest issue, but if I would do it I would probably just ad a few industrial spurs and the crane from the gasworks to empty the freighter. The iron ore would then be transported to staging.
Do you think adding a second layer above this layout would help?
Thanks for you comments, it really helps getting some outside critic on once plan to set it into perspective.
This may be a bit critical as a "critique", but your stated purpose was to watch, basically, long passenger trains in motion. As far as I can see, the passenger trains will traverse the mainline, "around and around", over perfectly straight tracks, which gets boring (rather fast). If, "trains in motion", is your goal, what is the purpose of the two vast yards, (with no crossovers, or double-slip switches. Note Texas Zepher's picture of a very interesting staging yard, in which the switcher has access to all the tracks, from within the yard. You state that you want to include the Walther's Coke Retort complex. The only place that I can see room for it would be in the lower left corner. But that would have the mainline passenger trains passing under the bridge crane in the Coke Retort complex. You mention the huge crane at dockside. I assume that you are referring to the Heljan operating crane. Where is the "dockside harbor" going to be located? Do you intend to include a large cargo vessel ? There seem to be no place for any industry,town, river,harbor, or ravine. They have compared my 24'x24' convoluted HO layout to "spaghetti", but it contains 240 yds of track, 102 turnouts, 4 reverse loops, and 3 wyes, with 18 possible routes for the trains to travel. The mainline never interfers with the operation of one 7 track stub ended yard and one 7 track pass through yard, each of which have approach tracks which are long enough so that the switcher has access to every track within the yard and can spot 15 freight cars on the approach tracks, without interfering with the mainline. How do you plan to control all the turnouts, in your two massive yards? Incidentally, do you plan for a "duck under, drop down, or lift-out" access to your layout. What is the room shape and size,(doors, windows,etc.) Bob Hahn
concretelackey wrote: 2 things that I would change, both on the center penisula.1st is to add a 2nd mainline around the right end to eliminate mainline fouling from your north yard.2nd is to move the connecting track between the north and south yards more to the left. The south-most yard track on your north yard has 8 sections of straight track while the north most track on the south yard has 3 sections (this spur points directly towards your TT tracks). If you shift that connecting turnout left about 2 sections you gain about an equal amount on the south yard.
What he said. Trust me you'll be glad you did it.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
The best way I see to run different levels would be to follow Joe Fugates mushroom construction method. You have the space and shaped area that would make it possible. This way as you need an incline to change the levels, you don't just have a hidden or backgroung track making the climb. This can be done within the levels of the mushroom. If Joe doesn't see this go to http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.20 and check out his plan.
Lillen wrote:Ok, first what era. I model the 50's. I have the California zephyr(15 cars) and the Santa Fe super chief(14 cars). I also have a large collection of walthers heavyweights, 14 UP and around 40 B&O. This is what I like and I like to run them as large as possible.
I would go for a double track mainline. This is because passing sideings would have to be so long anyway they would consume the entire space.
I would assume your passenger fleet will grow. Are you getting the new Walther's Hiawatha set? What about the Broadway Limited or Athearn Daylights? Anyway, because of this I would set aside six tracks in the staging area just for passenger trains.
Here is a photo of two Zephyrs about to pass each other near the large roundhouse (under construction toward the top right hand side) and the reefer yard. I am taking the picture from the center of one of the curveback loops. This would just about fit in the space you indicated. Minimum radius on this layout (not mine) except the helix is 44".image is acting strange so here is the url just in casehttp://www.walkersquawker.net/images/zephyrs%20passing%20small.jpg
Just a thought: One does not have to have a roundhouse in order to run a Big Boy.
Texas Zepher, bogp40, thanks for all your input and time.
Texas Zepher, funny you would say Chicago, that is the place I've been thinking of all along. I love Chicago. I was thinking of building a fictional small town somewhere south of Chicago to modell. Since I also like the DM&IR it's rather close and would explain some rented in ore cars that I have( I got 72 of those so I do want to use them.)
I will design the layout with double track. It only makes sense for the reasons you stated.
Will my passenger fleet grow, well I have no plans for it at this moment but I would guess YES
I have been considering the Hiawatha.
Is the Broadway Limited going to be released, because if so bu who and when?
About the roundhouse, I know, but i like them, so I want to model some form of roundhouse and turntable.
I've been looking at a plan from great modell railroads that I like that uses three levels. i want to try that. But I do not like Helixes so I was thinking of letting the track move more naturally between grades. I will try to post my next plan soon. The room is as tall as I build it. The entire structure is to be built by me this summer if all things goes according to plan. But the planed height will be 2,40 meters.
The plan I'm working now have the two tards on seperate peninualas, but with acess from the same spot. I would have to duck to get to other places byt I have there for considered to use only landscape and no builings at those poor acces locations. Here is just a very VERY basic draft!
Lillen wrote:I've been looking at a plan from great modell railroads that I like that uses three levels. i want to try that. But I do not like Helixes so I was thinking of letting the track move more naturally between grades. I will try to post my next plan soon. The room is as tall as I build it.
I've been looking at a plan from great modell railroads that I like that uses three levels. i want to try that. But I do not like Helixes so I was thinking of letting the track move more naturally between grades. I will try to post my next plan soon. The room is as tall as I build it.
Now that's what I call "custom benchwork."
Two of John Armstrong books, aside from his classic, "Track Planning for Reallistic Operation," that I have found useful this past year are from eBay purchases...
1983 => http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=BOOK&MO=5&YR=1983&output=5
1994 => http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=BOOK&MO=3&YR=1994&output=5
Each special book combines layouts that are in generally larger rooms, with prototype background, along with John Armstrong's unique layout design insights. If I had to choose just one of the two special issues, it would be the more recent "20 Custom Designed Track Plans," although each book is good, and; strategic Helix placement along with staging is given for multi-level layouts.
The best Helix how-to-article I have seen to date is Doug Gurin's, "A primer on helix design," which can be found in two places...
http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=MRP&MO=1&YR=97
http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/mrpdf032.html
Thanks for the links tgindy, I apreciate them, I will look and see if i will order any of the books. Armstrong is the man when it comes to this. I especially likes his attitude about this hobby.
Ok here is an update on the plan, now please, please not that the yard is only a sketch! Also, just because the mainline is straight now doesn't mean it will be so when it gets build. I still don't know how to lay flex track and I put down the straight because it is an easy way to see what will fit and what will not.
The crane I've been talking about is this: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2906
it will be used to offload iron ore from the boat on to the taconite cars which then takes them to the mill, which for now ill be at the staging yard.
concretelackey wrote:My thoughts- slide the freight house to the left, almost to the corner of the aisle. Take the mainline feeding the freight house closer to other mainline and have a dead end spur feeding the freight house. Having both mainline tracks running side by side and moving the feight house over will open up some space for your random industries on both sides of the mains and also give some more room for the TT. I'll try and do a quick RTS to show this better than I can explain.
Sorry but I gotta run, I'll try tomorrow.
Again, sorry
Thanks, I would apreciate the help.
Ok, here is the second layer, once again, trackspacing is not acurate! Also, tracks will not be straight.
Basically this is a plane which offers a lot of terrain and really only one stop, the new river mining co. Maybe i will ad a small station for passengers to get of somewhere. But this is the area where trains will pass through a lot of scenery. It will also ascend or decline depending on how you pur it 40 or 50 cm to get between the levels. But that should be no problem considering how long the mainline is.
Lillen, please don't think I'm ignoring you. I became sidetracked last night and I need to complete some computer work here at home this weekend for my job, however, I'll try and see what I can do, perhaps tomorrow.
I don't recall seeing any dimensions on any of your drawings. Is it possible for you to post a drawing showing room size and aisle spacing? This would help me in placing the curved tracks.
concretelackey wrote: Lillen, please don't think I'm ignoring you. I became sidetracked last night and I need to complete some computer work here at home this weekend for my job, however, I'll try and see what I can do, perhaps tomorrow.I don't recall seeing any dimensions on any of your drawings. Is it possible for you to post a drawing showing room size and aisle spacing? This would help me in placing the curved tracks.
No worries. The plan shows the exact diameter of the room and aisle width. Which is 60cm, I might have to do that wider. Basically the room isn't built yet, but it will have no windows and the door will be placed so that it is easiest to get in.