Trying a bigger plan--updated from comments.

[Anonymous]

Let's not introduce urban sprawl into this wild west town.

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks for the comments TZ. Insightful as always.  

 

I have been following this with interest, but not able to analyze enough to comment until now (had a major paper due for class tonight!).   It seems to me other than the conversation concerning the duck under or lift out, much disscussion has been oriented toward the strenghts of the layout rather than its weaknesses.  Chip pointed out in his original post how much the new design devistated the number, orientation, and interest of switching the industries in Train City.  The island branch industrial area was, in my opinion, the operational showcase of the whole thing.

 Yeah, I miss it too. I would have been a fun little area. So you ask why I wanted something different? the old layout necessitated remodeling the laundry area to become operational. Even if I could scratch the money to do it, it could put off running trains for at least a year.  

As currently designed it seems the focus is running trains from the yard to staging and back.  The addition of a larger mine and couple of other industries in Rock Ridge helped, but not nearly enough to justify more than 1 local train in each direction.

  

I do like yard work. The current number of industries are down by 3--the false front building on what would have been the common track along the left wall. What has been added operationally is the icing platform and the team track/hoist. I'm not opposed to more industries in the Rock Ridge area,  but even adding an industry or two will not add more local trains that direction. The yard only supports one local each direction and one local out to staging each direction.   

I was wondering why the area where the rock ridge canyon used to be isn't being used for industry.  Is it still a "scenery" spot?

Yep, it will still be a water fall and big scenery. I have a touch of rail-fan in me--gotta admit.  

For fixing the deer horn arrangment of industry tracks in Train city, have you considered using crossover(s) to move the point to point turnouts on the opposite side of each other so they are frog to frog?  This would not only make the available space on the sidings longer but also allow them to be better aligned with the city.  It seems that the one row of buildings (pink,yellow,brown,pink) on the right hand diagonal are crying to be served by a siding at their back door loading docs.

I'll see if I can work those in. I like the idea of more switching variety, but I don't want to sacrafice the town. That's the railfan coming back out again. There is also the raod that must cross over to the false fronts buildings in the back. It should not cross over the tracks any more than needed.

As for the duckunder,lift out, whatever - how often is an operator really going to be going back and forth to the staging area.  Is there going to be a staging area operator that takes over the train when it leaves the layout area proper?  If so it might not be as big a deal as when a person has to follow every train back there.

P.S. Is that a 15" radius curve I see on the center curved lead toward the round house?

Re: 15" radius. No, the track will turn red at less than 18" and that one is right there.

Re: Duck-under. I don't know how often I will be going to staging. It is set up for a 10 trains/day-cycle. If I can control it from the pit, so much the better. I will have to go out to work the far side of Rock Ridge though.  

[Anonymous]

Re: Duck-under. I don't know how often I will be going to staging. It is set up for a 10 trains/day-cycle. If I can control it from the pit, so much the better. I will have to go out to work the far side of Rock Ridge though.  

Chip,

It is your layout with your needs/desires/restrictions; however, that duck-under/door/gate/lift-out looks more and more like it needs to be a revolving door.

Your operations are heavily dependent on a multi-train staging yard that really should be operated from the yard area.  You have reduced operations in the main area to limited switching and a station in Rock Ridge.  If what "you" want, is multiple trains running by that go to and from staging, OK with me; but it sure would get boring soon for me.  Or am I missing something?  You also seem to be getting to the point that at least two operators are needed for reliable operations.

 

[tomikawaTT]

Chip,

Just a quick comment on what's where in staging.

You might want to use some form of precise locator to make sure you've stopped short of the fouling point of each siding (or pulled the markers clear of the fouling point at the other end.)  An LED, visible to the camera, which would be occulted by anything in the fouling zone would do it.

Actually, if I have the turnouts remotely controlled, the LED should be on the control panel.

I think we have a case of apples versus oranges here.  I was referring to a visual marker that would make it easy to assure that you weren't going to sideswipe a standing locomotive with a departing train.  Turnout position is a separate issue, appropriately addressed on the panel schematic.  OTOH, if you use some kind of electro-optical or microswitch rolling stock sensor, it, too, could control a panel marker - still separate from turnout position.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Chip-

As far as the FastTracks jig matching the Peco, I think the #5 matches that Atlas code 55, or it is real easy to measure the template and create turnout in XtrkCad, then you know it will match.  Actually, looking at my plan, I used the NMRA turnouts in XTrkCad.  I'm pretty sure I measured, and they matched the jigs.  I sure hope so, anyway!

 

[wrumbel]

Chip sorry about that.  It was www.tslrr.com  this is Wayne Rodericks web page for the Tetons Short Line.

 

Wayne

[rrinker]

Here's a radical idea: make that staging yard an operating yard. Roundhouse could go inside the loop - there's a prototype for it somewhere. Then instead of that yard and roundhouse and turntable eating up all the space on the left wall, you could actually narrow that benchwork to open up the aisle more, and add more industries.

                                           --Randy

Wait a second. Wasn't it your idea to take the staging from where I had it and put it in the laundry room so I could open up that wall to industries? Next when I change staging into a new yard and move staging down the left wall of the laundry area, you'll want to convert that and pretty soon I'll have a full basement of converted staging yards and have my "real" staging in my garage. Wait, that staging in the garage can become a new town.

 ANd the problem is?

I only bring it up because Dave Barrow uses open staging, and used it way back when before he built the newest versions of his railroad with the dominoes. The last 'conventional' version of the CM&SF had visible staging sitting right there for all the world to see.

 Maybe at least scenic it so the person who draws that job feels like they are part of the 'world' and not just banished to the dungeon.

 

                                 --Randy
 

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

No, the staging goes in the addition....no wait, that would make another town.....hmmmm.....

[SpaceMouse]

Chip,

Just a quick comment on what's where in staging.

You might want to use some form of precise locator to make sure you've stopped short of the fouling point of each siding (or pulled the markers clear of the fouling point at the other end.)  An LED, visible to the camera, which would be occulted by anything in the fouling zone would do it.

Actually, if I have the turnouts remotely controlled, the LED should be on the control panel.

I think we have a case of apples versus oranges here.  I was referring to a visual marker that would make it easy to assure that you weren't going to sideswipe a standing locomotive with a departing train.  Turnout position is a separate issue, appropriately addressed on the panel schematic.  OTOH, if you use some kind of electro-optical or microswitch rolling stock sensor, it, too, could control a panel marker - still separate from turnout position.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

No we're talking orange and mangos. No wait...apricots.

Actually I was thinking of reed switches that light an LED when closed by the magnetic field of the engine's motor.  Basically block detection that only reacts to the loco.   

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks for your time and comments.

Re: Duck-under. I don't know how often I will be going to staging. It is set up for a 10 trains/day-cycle. If I can control it from the pit, so much the better. I will have to go out to work the far side of Rock Ridge though.  

Chip,

It is your layout with your needs/desires/restrictions; however, that duck-under/door/gate/lift-out looks more and more like it needs to be a revolving door.

I was thinking saloon doors, but yeah.

Your operations are heavily dependent on a multi-train staging yard that really should be operated from the yard area.  You have reduced operations in the main area to limited switching and a station in Rock Ridge.  If what "you" want, is multiple trains running by that go to and from staging, OK with me; but it sure would get boring soon for me.  Or am I missing something?  You also seem to be getting to the point that at least two operators are needed for reliable operations.

I'm not sure I reduced anything. I have increased the yard size significantly. Increased Engine service. Lost 3 industries and added 3. Added a branch line interchange.

But yeah, it would work really well with 3-4 people. I am actually attempting to put together something 3-4 people could work with the idea that if I build it, they will come. I'd like to get into a round-robin type thing, but don't know anyone that has operational alyouts yet. But I could do it by myself as long as I wasn't worried about doing everything at once.

****************** 

With staging, I could probably railfan 4 trains at once. Sometimes like to so that. Especially if I am thinking about what to build next.

[Anonymous]

What is the floor under the drop out?

Is there a way to dig down a foot or two so that a man can walk down and under the liftout which will then only be removed if something really big needs to go in?

[Anonymous]

Hi Chip, you got kicked out of your club? Last I heard you were about to rescue them from their DCC debauchery! What happened

I had a thought that you can disregard as inexperienced if you wish. If you lengthen the siding at Train City by using a curved T.O. at the right end you can trade the pass station for the icing platform. Keep the ice to the right, and add another LH T.O. which crosses the spur heading down & right, cross the street and service 2 or 3 of those industries green, green, pink on the street heading down & left. This shouldn't intrude too much on your scenic bliss on the way to Rock Ridge, and you'd get some more switching in...

Also, I thought you said you were going to have a scenic tree break (in lieu of the tunnel) for the track that heads back to staging behind the yard? It doesn't look like there's any room now.

To me this version looks better overall, better access and management of your space.

I'll shut-up now...

 

[Anonymous]

I really dont have anything to say about this plan, Ian could not do better than this.

[SpaceMouse]

Hi Chip, you got kicked out of your club? Last I heard you were about to rescue them from their DCC debauchery! What happened

Short version. I suggested we clean cars. The club agreeded. The president didn't want to help so over half the club decided they would rather do other things as well. I wrote him a private email telling him that is was his job to carry out the wishes of the club as voted upon--which he shared with the club. The club got "Balkanized" as he put it and he asked me to leave. He handled the situation very poorly.

I had a thought that you can disregard as inexperienced if you wish. If you lengthen the siding at Train City by using a curved T.O. at the right end you can trade the pass station for the icing platform. Keep the ice to the right, and add another LH T.O. which crosses the spur heading down & right, cross the street and service 2 or 3 of those industries green, green, pink on the street heading down & left. This shouldn't intrude too much on your scenic bliss on the way to Rock Ridge, and you'd get some more switching in...

There's still a lot of tweaking to do in Train City and Rock Ridge. I'm planning to get the ice platform between the tracks so that the refrigerated trains can tie up ops in the yard while they are there. I've been thinking that if I hosted timed ops, I could drive all the operators nuts.  

Also, I thought you said you were going to have a scenic tree break (in lieu of the tunnel) for the track that heads back to staging behind the yard? It doesn't look like there's any room now.

True. I coveted the space. The main thing was to put a logical separation there. My current plan is to run an over-grown wood fence. I am even thinking telegraph poles, but I'm worried about reach. They may end up on the other side of the tracks.  

To me this version looks better overall, better access and management of your space.

I'll shut-up now...

Thanks for your help. Your comments are right on. I'm just going to try to avoid the curved turnout for now. I'll leave the custom turnouts to Crandell. 

[SpaceMouse]

...  I was wondering why the area where the rock ridge canyon used to be isn't being used for industry.  Is it still a "scenery" spot?...

I spotted this earlier, and asked Chip why he didn't continue his line around to the town, dropping as necessary. I didn't feel that I wanted to suggest adding more to the module than that since he has expressed a desire to salvage this earlier work.

He replied that he wanted to keep the area as an end unto itself..so to speak.

I do agree that there is much unused space between the trestle and the close inward bench edge.

The canyon is still there, I just haven't drawn it. You once said I had a flair for the dramatic. That is what I am going for in this area. Right now I plan on foresting the entire area in oak with a grove of tall douglas fir or ponderosa pines--think 2-2 1/2 feet tall. There are also a few scenes I plan on working into the area. I want to separate the two cities, not with time/distance as they are in short supply but in radical changes in scenery.

(I'm also jealous of Art Hill's big scenery falls.)

[SpaceMouse]

Chip-

As far as the FastTracks jig matching the Peco, I think the #5 matches that Atlas code 55, or it is real easy to measure the template and create turnout in XtrkCad, then you know it will match.  Actually, looking at my plan, I used the NMRA turnouts in XTrkCad.  I'm pretty sure I measured, and they matched the jigs.  I sure hope so, anyway!

Some of my tollerances are so tight, I'm worried that someone somewhere got something a little wrong and will make my whole plan fall apart. Some of the tweaking I am doing on this plan is creating fudge space.

[SpaceMouse]

Chip sorry about that.  It was www.tslrr.com  this is Wayne Rodericks web page for the Tetons Short Line.Wayne

Thanks. I keep going back and forth between gate and lift out. Any variation on themes is appreciated.

[SpaceMouse]

Here's a radical idea: make that staging yard an operating yard. Roundhouse could go inside the loop - there's a prototype for it somewhere. Then instead of that yard and roundhouse and turntable eating up all the space on the left wall, you could actually narrow that benchwork to open up the aisle more, and add more industries.

                                           --Randy

Wait a second. Wasn't it your idea to take the staging from where I had it and put it in the laundry room so I could open up that wall to industries? Next when I change staging into a new yard and move staging down the left wall of the laundry area, you'll want to convert that and pretty soon I'll have a full basement of converted staging yards and have my "real" staging in my garage. Wait, that staging in the garage can become a new town.

 ANd the problem is?

I only bring it up because Dave Barrow uses open staging, and used it way back when before he built the newest versions of his railroad with the dominoes. The last 'conventional' version of the CM&SF had visible staging sitting right there for all the world to see.

 Maybe at least scenic it so the person who draws that job feels like they are part of the 'world' and not just banished to the dungeon.  --Randy

See that is what you did last time. First you said scenic staging. Then when it was sceniced, you said, "Since it is sceniced, it is no longer staging, why not put in some switching instead." You're evil Mr Rinker.

ACtually, If I was doing a 3-4 person ops session, I would do the dungeon work. This area, the laundry room, is perfect for staging. Scenery here would loose its effect, when you lean over a sink to throw a turnout. Eventually, the layout will expand to take over the other side of the basement.  This is a very good use of space to put one of the three major staging areas in the laundry room.

 

[Texas Zepher]

I was wondering why the area where the rock ridge canyon used to be isn't being used for industry.  Is it still a "scenery" spot?

Yep, it will still be a water fall and big scenery. I have a touch of rail-fan in me--gotta admit

Nothing wrong with that.  I think every layout needs at least one "photo op", drool over the pictures type place on them.

As soon as some telegraph poles get put through, I think this (White River Canyon) will become the clubs most photographed scene:

As usual click the image to enlarge

[Texas Zepher]

(I'm also jealous of Art Hill's big scenery falls.)

Ah HA! the True reason and inspiration.

[SpaceMouse]

(I'm also jealous of Art Hill's big scenery falls.)

Ah HA! the True reason and inspiration.

I'm jealous of a lot of stuff I see here. Just can't model them all. (Right now I jealous of anyone who can run an engine.)