Trying a bigger plan--updated from comments.

[SpaceMouse]

(I'm also jealous of Art Hill's big scenery falls.)

Ah HA! the True reason and inspiration.

I'm jealous of a lot of stuff I see here. Just can't model them all. (Right now I jealous of anyone who can run an engine.)

[Texas Zepher]

(I'm also jealous of Art Hill's big scenery falls.)

Ah HA! the True reason and inspiration.

[Texas Zepher]

I was wondering why the area where the rock ridge canyon used to be isn't being used for industry.  Is it still a "scenery" spot?

Yep, it will still be a water fall and big scenery. I have a touch of rail-fan in me--gotta admit

Nothing wrong with that.  I think every layout needs at least one "photo op", drool over the pictures type place on them.

As soon as some telegraph poles get put through, I think this (White River Canyon) will become the clubs most photographed scene:

As usual click the image to enlarge

[SpaceMouse]

Here's a radical idea: make that staging yard an operating yard. Roundhouse could go inside the loop - there's a prototype for it somewhere. Then instead of that yard and roundhouse and turntable eating up all the space on the left wall, you could actually narrow that benchwork to open up the aisle more, and add more industries.

                                           --Randy

Wait a second. Wasn't it your idea to take the staging from where I had it and put it in the laundry room so I could open up that wall to industries? Next when I change staging into a new yard and move staging down the left wall of the laundry area, you'll want to convert that and pretty soon I'll have a full basement of converted staging yards and have my "real" staging in my garage. Wait, that staging in the garage can become a new town.

 ANd the problem is?

I only bring it up because Dave Barrow uses open staging, and used it way back when before he built the newest versions of his railroad with the dominoes. The last 'conventional' version of the CM&SF had visible staging sitting right there for all the world to see.

 Maybe at least scenic it so the person who draws that job feels like they are part of the 'world' and not just banished to the dungeon.  --Randy

See that is what you did last time. First you said scenic staging. Then when it was sceniced, you said, "Since it is sceniced, it is no longer staging, why not put in some switching instead." You're evil Mr Rinker.

ACtually, If I was doing a 3-4 person ops session, I would do the dungeon work. This area, the laundry room, is perfect for staging. Scenery here would loose its effect, when you lean over a sink to throw a turnout. Eventually, the layout will expand to take over the other side of the basement.  This is a very good use of space to put one of the three major staging areas in the laundry room.

 

[SpaceMouse]

Chip sorry about that.  It was www.tslrr.com  this is Wayne Rodericks web page for the Tetons Short Line.Wayne

Thanks. I keep going back and forth between gate and lift out. Any variation on themes is appreciated.

[SpaceMouse]

Chip-

As far as the FastTracks jig matching the Peco, I think the #5 matches that Atlas code 55, or it is real easy to measure the template and create turnout in XtrkCad, then you know it will match.  Actually, looking at my plan, I used the NMRA turnouts in XTrkCad.  I'm pretty sure I measured, and they matched the jigs.  I sure hope so, anyway!

Some of my tollerances are so tight, I'm worried that someone somewhere got something a little wrong and will make my whole plan fall apart. Some of the tweaking I am doing on this plan is creating fudge space.

[SpaceMouse]

...  I was wondering why the area where the rock ridge canyon used to be isn't being used for industry.  Is it still a "scenery" spot?...

I spotted this earlier, and asked Chip why he didn't continue his line around to the town, dropping as necessary. I didn't feel that I wanted to suggest adding more to the module than that since he has expressed a desire to salvage this earlier work.

He replied that he wanted to keep the area as an end unto itself..so to speak.

I do agree that there is much unused space between the trestle and the close inward bench edge.

The canyon is still there, I just haven't drawn it. You once said I had a flair for the dramatic. That is what I am going for in this area. Right now I plan on foresting the entire area in oak with a grove of tall douglas fir or ponderosa pines--think 2-2 1/2 feet tall. There are also a few scenes I plan on working into the area. I want to separate the two cities, not with time/distance as they are in short supply but in radical changes in scenery.

(I'm also jealous of Art Hill's big scenery falls.)

[SpaceMouse]

Hi Chip, you got kicked out of your club? Last I heard you were about to rescue them from their DCC debauchery! What happened

Short version. I suggested we clean cars. The club agreeded. The president didn't want to help so over half the club decided they would rather do other things as well. I wrote him a private email telling him that is was his job to carry out the wishes of the club as voted upon--which he shared with the club. The club got "Balkanized" as he put it and he asked me to leave. He handled the situation very poorly.

I had a thought that you can disregard as inexperienced if you wish. If you lengthen the siding at Train City by using a curved T.O. at the right end you can trade the pass station for the icing platform. Keep the ice to the right, and add another LH T.O. which crosses the spur heading down & right, cross the street and service 2 or 3 of those industries green, green, pink on the street heading down & left. This shouldn't intrude too much on your scenic bliss on the way to Rock Ridge, and you'd get some more switching in...

There's still a lot of tweaking to do in Train City and Rock Ridge. I'm planning to get the ice platform between the tracks so that the refrigerated trains can tie up ops in the yard while they are there. I've been thinking that if I hosted timed ops, I could drive all the operators nuts.  

Also, I thought you said you were going to have a scenic tree break (in lieu of the tunnel) for the track that heads back to staging behind the yard? It doesn't look like there's any room now.

True. I coveted the space. The main thing was to put a logical separation there. My current plan is to run an over-grown wood fence. I am even thinking telegraph poles, but I'm worried about reach. They may end up on the other side of the tracks.  

To me this version looks better overall, better access and management of your space.

I'll shut-up now...

Thanks for your help. Your comments are right on. I'm just going to try to avoid the curved turnout for now. I'll leave the custom turnouts to Crandell. 

[Anonymous]

I really dont have anything to say about this plan, Ian could not do better than this.

[Anonymous]

Hi Chip, you got kicked out of your club? Last I heard you were about to rescue them from their DCC debauchery! What happened

I had a thought that you can disregard as inexperienced if you wish. If you lengthen the siding at Train City by using a curved T.O. at the right end you can trade the pass station for the icing platform. Keep the ice to the right, and add another LH T.O. which crosses the spur heading down & right, cross the street and service 2 or 3 of those industries green, green, pink on the street heading down & left. This shouldn't intrude too much on your scenic bliss on the way to Rock Ridge, and you'd get some more switching in...

Also, I thought you said you were going to have a scenic tree break (in lieu of the tunnel) for the track that heads back to staging behind the yard? It doesn't look like there's any room now.

To me this version looks better overall, better access and management of your space.

I'll shut-up now...

 

[Anonymous]

What is the floor under the drop out?

Is there a way to dig down a foot or two so that a man can walk down and under the liftout which will then only be removed if something really big needs to go in?

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks for your time and comments.

Re: Duck-under. I don't know how often I will be going to staging. It is set up for a 10 trains/day-cycle. If I can control it from the pit, so much the better. I will have to go out to work the far side of Rock Ridge though.  

Chip,

It is your layout with your needs/desires/restrictions; however, that duck-under/door/gate/lift-out looks more and more like it needs to be a revolving door.

I was thinking saloon doors, but yeah.

Your operations are heavily dependent on a multi-train staging yard that really should be operated from the yard area.  You have reduced operations in the main area to limited switching and a station in Rock Ridge.  If what "you" want, is multiple trains running by that go to and from staging, OK with me; but it sure would get boring soon for me.  Or am I missing something?  You also seem to be getting to the point that at least two operators are needed for reliable operations.

I'm not sure I reduced anything. I have increased the yard size significantly. Increased Engine service. Lost 3 industries and added 3. Added a branch line interchange.

But yeah, it would work really well with 3-4 people. I am actually attempting to put together something 3-4 people could work with the idea that if I build it, they will come. I'd like to get into a round-robin type thing, but don't know anyone that has operational alyouts yet. But I could do it by myself as long as I wasn't worried about doing everything at once.

****************** 

With staging, I could probably railfan 4 trains at once. Sometimes like to so that. Especially if I am thinking about what to build next.

[SpaceMouse]

Chip,

Just a quick comment on what's where in staging.

You might want to use some form of precise locator to make sure you've stopped short of the fouling point of each siding (or pulled the markers clear of the fouling point at the other end.)  An LED, visible to the camera, which would be occulted by anything in the fouling zone would do it.

Actually, if I have the turnouts remotely controlled, the LED should be on the control panel.

I think we have a case of apples versus oranges here.  I was referring to a visual marker that would make it easy to assure that you weren't going to sideswipe a standing locomotive with a departing train.  Turnout position is a separate issue, appropriately addressed on the panel schematic.  OTOH, if you use some kind of electro-optical or microswitch rolling stock sensor, it, too, could control a panel marker - still separate from turnout position.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

No we're talking orange and mangos. No wait...apricots.

Actually I was thinking of reed switches that light an LED when closed by the magnetic field of the engine's motor.  Basically block detection that only reacts to the loco.   

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

No, the staging goes in the addition....no wait, that would make another town.....hmmmm.....

[rrinker]

Here's a radical idea: make that staging yard an operating yard. Roundhouse could go inside the loop - there's a prototype for it somewhere. Then instead of that yard and roundhouse and turntable eating up all the space on the left wall, you could actually narrow that benchwork to open up the aisle more, and add more industries.

                                           --Randy

Wait a second. Wasn't it your idea to take the staging from where I had it and put it in the laundry room so I could open up that wall to industries? Next when I change staging into a new yard and move staging down the left wall of the laundry area, you'll want to convert that and pretty soon I'll have a full basement of converted staging yards and have my "real" staging in my garage. Wait, that staging in the garage can become a new town.

 ANd the problem is?

I only bring it up because Dave Barrow uses open staging, and used it way back when before he built the newest versions of his railroad with the dominoes. The last 'conventional' version of the CM&SF had visible staging sitting right there for all the world to see.

 Maybe at least scenic it so the person who draws that job feels like they are part of the 'world' and not just banished to the dungeon.

 

                                 --Randy
 

[wrumbel]

Chip sorry about that.  It was www.tslrr.com  this is Wayne Rodericks web page for the Tetons Short Line.

 

Wayne

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Chip-

As far as the FastTracks jig matching the Peco, I think the #5 matches that Atlas code 55, or it is real easy to measure the template and create turnout in XtrkCad, then you know it will match.  Actually, looking at my plan, I used the NMRA turnouts in XTrkCad.  I'm pretty sure I measured, and they matched the jigs.  I sure hope so, anyway!

 

[tomikawaTT]

Chip,

Just a quick comment on what's where in staging.

You might want to use some form of precise locator to make sure you've stopped short of the fouling point of each siding (or pulled the markers clear of the fouling point at the other end.)  An LED, visible to the camera, which would be occulted by anything in the fouling zone would do it.

Actually, if I have the turnouts remotely controlled, the LED should be on the control panel.

I think we have a case of apples versus oranges here.  I was referring to a visual marker that would make it easy to assure that you weren't going to sideswipe a standing locomotive with a departing train.  Turnout position is a separate issue, appropriately addressed on the panel schematic.  OTOH, if you use some kind of electro-optical or microswitch rolling stock sensor, it, too, could control a panel marker - still separate from turnout position.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Anonymous]

Re: Duck-under. I don't know how often I will be going to staging. It is set up for a 10 trains/day-cycle. If I can control it from the pit, so much the better. I will have to go out to work the far side of Rock Ridge though.  

Chip,

It is your layout with your needs/desires/restrictions; however, that duck-under/door/gate/lift-out looks more and more like it needs to be a revolving door.

Your operations are heavily dependent on a multi-train staging yard that really should be operated from the yard area.  You have reduced operations in the main area to limited switching and a station in Rock Ridge.  If what "you" want, is multiple trains running by that go to and from staging, OK with me; but it sure would get boring soon for me.  Or am I missing something?  You also seem to be getting to the point that at least two operators are needed for reliable operations.

 

[SpaceMouse]

Thanks for the comments TZ. Insightful as always.  

 

I have been following this with interest, but not able to analyze enough to comment until now (had a major paper due for class tonight!).   It seems to me other than the conversation concerning the duck under or lift out, much disscussion has been oriented toward the strenghts of the layout rather than its weaknesses.  Chip pointed out in his original post how much the new design devistated the number, orientation, and interest of switching the industries in Train City.  The island branch industrial area was, in my opinion, the operational showcase of the whole thing.

 Yeah, I miss it too. I would have been a fun little area. So you ask why I wanted something different? the old layout necessitated remodeling the laundry area to become operational. Even if I could scratch the money to do it, it could put off running trains for at least a year.  

As currently designed it seems the focus is running trains from the yard to staging and back.  The addition of a larger mine and couple of other industries in Rock Ridge helped, but not nearly enough to justify more than 1 local train in each direction.

  

I do like yard work. The current number of industries are down by 3--the false front building on what would have been the common track along the left wall. What has been added operationally is the icing platform and the team track/hoist. I'm not opposed to more industries in the Rock Ridge area,  but even adding an industry or two will not add more local trains that direction. The yard only supports one local each direction and one local out to staging each direction.   

I was wondering why the area where the rock ridge canyon used to be isn't being used for industry.  Is it still a "scenery" spot?

Yep, it will still be a water fall and big scenery. I have a touch of rail-fan in me--gotta admit.  

For fixing the deer horn arrangment of industry tracks in Train city, have you considered using crossover(s) to move the point to point turnouts on the opposite side of each other so they are frog to frog?  This would not only make the available space on the sidings longer but also allow them to be better aligned with the city.  It seems that the one row of buildings (pink,yellow,brown,pink) on the right hand diagonal are crying to be served by a siding at their back door loading docs.

I'll see if I can work those in. I like the idea of more switching variety, but I don't want to sacrafice the town. That's the railfan coming back out again. There is also the raod that must cross over to the false fronts buildings in the back. It should not cross over the tracks any more than needed.

As for the duckunder,lift out, whatever - how often is an operator really going to be going back and forth to the staging area.  Is there going to be a staging area operator that takes over the train when it leaves the layout area proper?  If so it might not be as big a deal as when a person has to follow every train back there.

P.S. Is that a 15" radius curve I see on the center curved lead toward the round house?

Re: 15" radius. No, the track will turn red at less than 18" and that one is right there.

Re: Duck-under. I don't know how often I will be going to staging. It is set up for a 10 trains/day-cycle. If I can control it from the pit, so much the better. I will have to go out to work the far side of Rock Ridge though.  

[Anonymous]

Let's not introduce urban sprawl into this wild west town.

[selector]

...  I was wondering why the area where the rock ridge canyon used to be isn't being used for industry.  Is it still a "scenery" spot?...

I spotted this earlier, and asked Chip why he didn't continue his line around to the town, dropping as necessary. I didn't feel that I wanted to suggest adding more to the module than that since he has expressed a desire to salvage this earlier work.

He replied that he wanted to keep the area as an end unto itself..so to speak.

I do agree that there is much unused space between the trestle and the close inward bench edge.

[Texas Zepher]

I have been following this with interest, but not able to analyze enough to comment until now (had a major paper due for class tonight!).   It seems to me other than the conversation concerning the duck under or lift out, much disscussion has been oriented toward the strenghts of the layout rather than its weaknesses.  Chip pointed out in his original post how much the new design devistated the number, orientation, and interest of switching the industries in Train City.  The island branch industrial area was, in my opinion, the operational showcase of the whole thing. As currently designed it seems the focus is running trains from the yard to staging and back.  The addition of a larger mine and couple of other industries in Rock Ridge helped, but not nearly enough to justify more than 1 local train in each direction.  I was wondering why the area where the rock ridge canyon used to be isn't being used for industry.  Is it still a "scenery" spot?   For fixing the deer horn arrangment of industry tracks in Train city, have you considered using crossover(s) to move the point to point turnouts on the opposite side of each other so they are frog to frog?  This would not only make the available space on the sidings longer but also allow them to be better aligned with the city.  It seems that the one row of buildings (pink,yellow,brown,pink) on the right hand diagonal are crying to be served by a siding at their back door loading docs.

As for the duckunder,lift out, whatever - how often is an operator really going to be going back and forth to the staging area.  Is there going to be a staging area operator that takes over the train when it leaves the layout area proper?  If so it might not be as big a deal as when a person has to follow every train back there.

P.S. Is that a 15" radius curve I see on the center curved lead toward the round house?

[SpaceMouse]

Chip,

Just a quick comment on what's where in staging.

Unless you plan to do some 'fiddling' in the staging area, a video camera should give an adequate view of what's where.  As for loco addresses, I use a multi-slot car card box - the train deck includes a locomotive card and its location in the box tells me where the train is in staging.  You don't have to have a full card system.  Just a card for each loco, and a place for each location.

With only ten trains and two being radically different passenger trains, I should be able to identify each train visually at a distance--although the card idea is a good one.  

You might want to use some form of precise locator to make sure you've stopped short of the fouling point of each siding (or pulled the markers clear of the fouling point at the other end.)  An LED, visible to the camera, which would be occulted by anything in the fouling zone would do it.

Actually, if I have the turnouts remotely controlled, the LED should be on the control panel.

I'm afraid that having to get past the 'bridge' to operate will get old in a hurry, but that's colored by my personal limitations and may not apply in your case.  In my case, I radically re-engineered my benchwork to eliminate a similar situation.  Unfortunately, you don't have space enough to exercise that option.

Hope this hasn't been too confusing.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Actually I have a plan by which I can eliminate the bridge, but the cost is high. In terms of prototypical operations it is a better plan. But it quadruples my start up costs and delays construction by months. It relies on staging to complete the loop--the return loop passes under the layout and connects to the end of the Rock Ridge Branch. I would be able to expand the yard and add more industrial switching. But I would guess I'd loose a year before I could start it. I have to remodel the laundry area before the trackwork can be layed. I'm already going nuts not being able to run and now I've been booted from my club. (BTW: I've decided to use my GP-38 to switch the staging yard when needed.)  

[SpaceMouse]

I like this, too.  Just to get that last fly speck out of the pepper, and unfortunately to touch on a point that you have already addressed with me, I would find it useful to hook up your left new passing siding/icing facility, to the yard ...just one turnout more...c'mon, humour me here.  A layout needs nooks and crannies.

Okay, one more fly speck....you know you want a double slip....

What I really want is a curved double slip on diverging curves of differeing radii.

I'm not sure why I would want to turn my longest yard track and yard lead into an A/D track just so I can enter the train city yard from the mainline between Rock Ridge and Virginia City? Maybe I should just build a stone ring there and call it a star gate. 

[tomikawaTT]

Chip,

Just a quick comment on what's where in staging.

Unless you plan to do some 'fiddling' in the staging area, a video camera should give an adequate view of what's where.  As for loco addresses, I use a multi-slot car card box - the train deck includes a locomotive card and its location in the box tells me where the train is in staging.  You don't have to have a full card system.  Just a card for each loco, and a place for each location.

You might want to use some form of precise locator to make sure you've stopped short of the fouling point of each siding (or pulled the markers clear of the fouling point at the other end.)  An LED, visible to the camera, which would be occulted by anything in the fouling zone would do it.

I'm afraid that having to get past the 'bridge' to operate will get old in a hurry, but that's colored by my personal limitations and may not apply in your case.  In my case, I radically re-engineered my benchwork to eliminate a similar situation.  Unfortunately, you don't have space enough to exercise that option.

Hope this hasn't been too confusing.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[SpaceMouse]

I have been worried that the Fast Tracks Jig I'm going to buy is different than the Peco #5 turnouts I've been using for the XtrkCAD design. From what I understand, FastTracks uses NMRA standards and XtraCAD has a turnout called NMRA #5.

When I put the Peco Small turnout up against the NMRA #5 turnout, the appeared to be identical.

So I used a couple of tests where I alternated Pecos with NMRAs and found that in parallel tracks generated by the turnouts, the spacing 3 feet away was identical between the tracks.

I have determined that for all intents and purposes, at least how XtraCAD draws their library of turnouts. The Peco small turnout is identical to the NMRA #5.

I'm not going to worry about it.

************************************

On a less positive note, it was pointed out to me that the spacing between the track in my yard was a little tight. I measured it and found that a couple of the track were spaced at 1 1/2 inches. So I have to find 1" of space to expand the track spacing.

The good news is that someone was really observant and caught it.

The bad news is that I will have to re-draw and reposition every track and building on the left side of the layout. It's not just sliding things over either. Everything must be re-fit.

 

 

[jwar]

Sorry about that, I thought you had two different levels of elevation, looking at you plan now I see is isnt...sorry about that....John

[selector]

Okay, in this version a lot of the problems I mentioned before are gone. Crandell convinced me that I could build a gate that could stand frequent use.

There's a small blob in the area in the area of the roundhouse. The track along the left wall has been brought out of the tunnel and I added a passing track. This allowed me to move the yard 3" to the left and that gave me room to put a road and industries down in front of the yard. This took pressure off Train City and I was able to organize the roads and put in the icing platform, although it would have been better on the siding than on the main. I also got the false front buildings that will help extend Train City into the back drop.

I still have some work to do in Rock Ridge area. I need to get engine service for the Rock Ridge Mine switcher. I also have to figure out the new industry and place the company town.

All in all, I like it.

I like this, too.  Just to get that last fly speck out of the pepper, and unfortunately to touch on a point that you have already addressed with me, I would find it useful to hook up your left new passing siding/icing facility, to the yard ...just one turnout more...c'mon, humour me here.  A layout needs nooks and crannies.

Okay, one more fly speck....you know you want a double slip....