10x15 N scale layout plans - Critique - The ongoing saga.........

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

TZ,

You have a point. The prototype seems to be nothing more than a car dump. And with a little playing around, you could even get the wye interchange in. But I'm not sure how any of the versions fit the prototype--not that they have to--compromise is all good. However, some compromises have more operational possibilities than others.

Chip, if you could get that wye in there you'd be my hero! I've tried everything I can think of to make that happen, but the backdrop, which is the support for the deck above, always gets in the way. I'm Emailing you to give you the .ral files. Thanks!

You don't need the whole backdrop for support. Depending on how you build it, 50% may be plenty.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

TZ,

You have a point. The prototype seems to be nothing more than a car dump. And with a little playing around, you could even get the wye interchange in. But I'm not sure how any of the versions fit the prototype--not that they have to--compromise is all good. However, some compromises have more operational possibilities than others.

Chip, if you could get that wye in there you'd be my hero! I've tried everything I can think of to make that happen, but the backdrop, which is the support for the deck above, always gets in the way. I'm Emailing you to give you the .ral files. Thanks!

I got the .ral files. However, there will be no magic. I am just going to make a fundamental decision. I decide that the wye is more important than the backdrop. Now that that decision is made you are open to many more opportunities.

First of all, you maximixe the impact of your seaside town. You see if from both sides. You can expand it, add more structures, etc. There is really not a lot going on on what would have been the other side of the backdrop, so no loss from that side. From the town side, it will be recessed and not seen.

Now for support of the upper level you can use a couple (maybe only one) 2 x 4s. They can be disguised using a knoll covered with a dense oak forest.

[jlsmith7017]

Can you suspend it from the ceiling? The knoll idea is a good one. If you have a knoll on the left by the wall and another on the right in the blob, then you could run a stringer from one to the other as support for the upper level while keeping the lower level free for the wye.

As far a comprises go for adding some classification tracks, you could go back to your 5/23 version and operate it as I describe (with the 3 tracks near the edge being the classification tracks and the outside track around the blob being the drill track). This allows you to keep the the prototype layout while giving you some flexibility in operations. The only change you'd need to make this work would be to have the branchline come off past the yard so it can access the yard directly, too.
- Jeff

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell
I guess I'm not sure why the class 1 would have to turn it's loco's in my plans. Both ends of the main line go to staging. I did that so that trains could emerge from either east or west, do some switching, and then continue on in the direction they were originally traveling. Did I miss something that would make that possible?

Oh, duh. I thought the track curving down to the left was dead ending. I just looked at it again and saw the "to staging". So a big - never mind.....

[pcarrell]

Chip,
You might be onto something with that support idea for the middle level. I'll have to play with that some. As to the upper level, I didn't intend for the backdrop to be in the middle. This pic illustrates a little more about the dock area and the backdrop (in red) I intended for the top. Between the tracks and the backdrop will be a small, but active, 1930's cityscape.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlsmith7017

Can you suspend it from the ceiling? The knoll idea is a good one. If you have a knoll on the left by the wall and another on the right in the blob, then you could run a stringer from one to the other as support for the upper level while keeping the lower level free for the wye.

Hey! I'm all for that, but I'm not sure I can sell it to the wife! If I can hang the upper level then I wont need any supports between the decks!

QUOTE: As far a comprises go for adding some classification tracks, you could go back to your 5/23 version and operate it as I describe (with the 3 tracks near the edge being the classification tracks and the outside track around the blob being the drill track). This allows you to keep the the prototype layout while giving you some flexibility in operations. The only change you'd need to make this work would be to have the branchline come off past the yard so it can access the yard directly, too.
- Jeff

I have not forgotten about that. This whole thread has been like trying to take a sip from a fire hydrant! It may take me a bit to sort it all out. I'm just exploring possibilities right now. I'll sort the best ones out later. That's going to be hard, because there's so many good ones, including yours!

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

Oh, duh. I thought the track curving down to the left was dead ending. I just looked at it again and saw the "to staging". So a big - never mind.....

What's the matter? Looking at the same plan, over and over, with only minor variations, for days on end has gotten you to where you miss a thing or two? I'm right there with ya man!

[pcarrell]

I can't figure out how to make the wye. Up to this point the tightest curve on the layout is a 16.25 curve in one place. The tightest on the main line is a 20 inch radius. I made these wyes with 15 inch radius curves and differing legs to try stuff out, and none of them work that I can see.

Am I missing something? Is there a way to make it work?

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, I give up. I've only used TRS 5.0 and I can't figure out how to ungroup the track to break it up.

[spidge]

WOW! I just love the level of determination. Just keep going until cross-eyed., I did. I finaly gave in and did a basic grade and clearance check and started cutting wood.
WHAT IF? The big question that anybody who looks at your plans will say.
What if you bring the main up from staging further back in the scene and you could put the y at the upper left. then you would have to turn the entire yard over and the main would run diagonal accross the scene. The main would then wrap around the blob to the rest of the layout.
Just a thought. seems your pretty quick with your track plan program so give it a go.

[ericboone]

All in all, your plans have been excellent. [yeah] One question I have is about your engine servicing facilities. Why do you have engine houses at both ends of the layout? I would think give that this is a shortline, engine servicing facilities would be at one end or the other. All the shortline trains would be turns. Of course, for the steam era, you'll still need a turntable or wye at each end for turning locomotives and probably a water tower at each end too.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spidge

WOW! I just love the level of determination. Just keep going until cross-eyed., I did.

Thank you! The thing is, I'm only going to build this beast ONCE. I've got a couple of months before I move, and then probably a month of two to get settled, then construction begins. I'm thinking sometime between turkey day and Christmas is probably about right. With that in mind, I've got the time now to get it right, so why not explore all the possibilities while I can, get as many ideas floating around while I've got the time, so that when the time does come, I'm armed to the teeth with knowledge.

QUOTE: I finaly gave in and did a basic grade and clearance check and started cutting wood.

You have no idea how much I can relate to that! I think it's the fact that the house isn't finished yet that keeps me from doing just that!

QUOTE: WHAT IF? The big question that anybody who looks at your plans will say.
What if you bring the main up from staging further back in the scene and you could put the y at the upper left. then you would have to turn the entire yard over and the main would run diagonal accross the scene. The main would then wrap around the blob to the rest of the layout.
Just a thought. seems your pretty quick with your track plan program so give it a go.

I actually looked at something just like that when I was still doing this on my own. I basically mirror imaged the whole thing and then made adjustments accordingly. This is what I found. I found that since the two end blobs were about the same size, flipping the plan alone did little to help. I took the blob on the right and enlarged it and the blob on the left and shrunk it. That helped some, but it presented other issues. First, along the top on the right side there is a closet. I haven't mentioned that till now so you had no way of knowing. Anyways, as I have it now the closet is partially blocked, but it's still usable. When I flipped the plan it was no longer usable. I need that closet for storage of my other hobby, model cars (I have almost 400 of them). The other thing that happened, and this was a biggie, is that when you walk into the room the first thing you see is the helix. Now I could make it interesting and put it behind curved plexiglass or something, but it still isn't the view I had in mind when you first walk into the room. I pictured walking in and seeing at least part of a small world. The only way I could think of to make this happen was the basic benchwork shape I have here.

All that said, don't think I'm married to it. If someone has a better idea for a basic shape that would solve a few issues, I'm all ears! As you said, I'm pretty mean with the software!

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericboone

All in all, your plans have been excellent. [yeah] One question I have is about your engine servicing facilities. Why do you have engine houses at both ends of the layout? I would think give that this is a shortline, engine servicing facilities would be at one end or the other. All the shortline trains would be turns. Of course, for the steam era, you'll still need a turntable or wye at each end for turning locomotives and probably a water tower at each end too.

The prototype that I'm loosely following had a maximum of 5 loco's at any one time (I think it was 5), so it's a decent size shortline, even though it only covered 33 miles of track. I'm figuring on 4 or 5 loco's to do my work; one in the port to switch it and the industries there, one for the local milk run and passenger duties, one or two for freight work, and one to switch around the interchange. I know that the plan as it stands doesnt warrent this much activity, but I'm just after the main tracks rith now, I'll add some spurs to industries later, and if I have to, I'll cut back the loco's and the enginehouse. But first, the main trackage HAS to be right. That's what I've been working on here. As for coal and water, they'll be there, I just havent drawn them in yet.

Thanks for the comments! They're right on the money. Very observant! You get an "A" for paying attention! [:D] If you notice anything else, hollar!

[SpaceMouse]

Here's a change that would make your manipulation of the yard a lot easier. A switcher can now utilize all but the uppermost track when making changes. You'll have to smooth it out. I have not used RTS for a very long time and it took me a while to relearn it.



I could not find a wye in the library. Could you email me the file with your wye experiments?

[pcarrell]

Chip,
I didn't even save them, but they're easy to make. I just made them using the wye turnout in the N scale code 55 software and then just added curves of whatever radius I wanted, in this case I used 15 in., but bigger would be better, the added two more wye turnouts and used the flex track tool to do the last leg. It's pretty easy.

As for the changes, The turnout near the yard doesn't need to be there I don't think. I already could access any of those tracks on this version of the plan i think. That's one of the main reasons I liked it. Or maybe I'm not looking at it right. Actually, the way you broke the branch off of the main makes a couple of those turnouts in the yard either not needed at all or redundant at best.

Now, the way you broke the branch off of the main is interesting. That may work quite well. It reduces the number of tracks going around the blob and so it makes it seem a little more "Podunk, USA", which is what I'm after. Thanks!

I'll have access to my plans tomorrow so I'll do some playing and see what I come up with.

Thank for the help!

[spidge]

Philip, I should have been more specific. I like the idea of walking in the room and having that small world be the first impression, and I especially like the idea of being consumed/surrounded by the layout when you progress around the first blob. Keep the footprint like it is, city first, then as you walk away the branchline is the main focus.
Is what I was eluding to is the yard blob by itself, if you turned the yard over to run the main on the backside or middle of the scene. When you walk in the Y would standout a bit on the right in the foreground with the yard behind it, then the city would grow behind the yard and be the backdrop. Where turntable is now you would have a substancial space to create a city scene.The backdrop could be pushed toward the other side.

Look at the original plan you posted. Would the Y fit in the space where the turntable is? If you bring the main up from staging a little deeper in the scene? Maybe extend the benchwork along the wall abit, just for one track?

[SpaceMouse]

Okay, I see it now what you are talking about with the switching. You can tale out the one turnout I put at the yard throat, and also you can remove two other turnouts to simplify operations and save $$.

I'll look in the code 55 for the wye. They don't have one in the code 80. which I assumed you were using. Would have saved me a bunch of work.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spidge

Philip, I should have been more specific. I like the idea of walking in the room and having that small world be the first impression, and I especially like the idea of being consumed/surrounded by the layout when you progress around the first blob. Keep the footprint like it is, city first, then as you walk away the branchline is the main focus.
Is what I was eluding to is the yard blob by itself, if you turned the yard over to run the main on the backside or middle of the scene. When you walk in the Y would standout a bit on the right in the foreground with the yard behind it, then the city would grow behind the yard and be the backdrop. Where turntable is now you would have a substancial space to create a city scene.The backdrop could be pushed toward the other side.

Look at the original plan you posted. Would the Y fit in the space where the turntable is? If you bring the main up from staging a little deeper in the scene? Maybe extend the benchwork along the wall abit, just for one track?

You've given me a great idea! It's going to take some time to put it together though. I'll post something tomorrow if it works. Thanks!

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pcarrell

QUOTE: Originally posted by spidge

Philip, I should have been more specific. I like the idea of walking in the room and having that small world be the first impression, and I especially like the idea of being consumed/surrounded by the layout when you progress around the first blob. Keep the footprint like it is, city first, then as you walk away the branchline is the main focus.
Is what I was eluding to is the yard blob by itself, if you turned the yard over to run the main on the backside or middle of the scene. When you walk in the Y would standout a bit on the right in the foreground with the yard behind it, then the city would grow behind the yard and be the backdrop. Where turntable is now you would have a substancial space to create a city scene.The backdrop could be pushed toward the other side.

Look at the original plan you posted. Would the Y fit in the space where the turntable is? If you bring the main up from staging a little deeper in the scene? Maybe extend the benchwork along the wall abit, just for one track?

You've given me a great idea! It's going to take some time to put it together though. I'll post something tomorrow if it works. Thanks!

I couldn't make it work. Oh well!

A wye just won't fit,.....at least I can't figure out how.

[Texas Zepher]

turntables are more fun than wyes anyway.

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

turntables are more fun than wyes anyway.

True! But wyes don't get modeled as much, so there's a certain charm in that. Matter of fact, I'd love to do a scissor wye sometime as you virtually NEVER see that. I think I've only ever seen one modeled before.

[jlsmith7017]

Phillip,
I've been out of town for a while and am just curious where you ended up going with this. Got an update for us?
- Jeff

[pcarrell]

Hi Jeff,

I guess after all this, an update is in order, huh?

Here's what I've got.

This is the staging level as it stands.

I'm not completely satasfied with it as it's kind of unidirectional. It works from left to right, or, from right to left, but not both. The idea was to have trains coming from both directions sporadically. I don't think this does that as well as it could with some minor tweaks, so those need to be done. But this is very close.

For the bottom sceniced deck I'm pretty good with this.

The track that is one up from the turntable lead could be eliminated and thus save me some money on the two turnouts, but other then that I think this does what I was after.

The top deck is pretty well locked in. I like this alot.

I may add a spur to the town on the right, but other then that, this ones a winner. I did a blow-up of the port area and colored it to help with the visual image. Here's that....

(The blue is water and the red is backdrop. Between the passenger station and the backdrop is town.)

Well, that's about it.

What do you think of these? Do these look workable to you too?

There were so many great suggestions by everybody (THANKS EVERYONE) that it really came down to picking one that fit the "flavor" of what I was after. The input that I recieved from everyone was just great, and to be honest, was a little like trying to take a sip from the bottom of Niagra Falls! It was a little overwhelming. I'm still sorting through some of it, but I appreciate everyone's willingness to share and help. I guess that's what I like most about this forum. Thanks again everyone!

Now all I have to do is not change my mind twenty seven thousand times between now and the time I start building............[:D]

[jlsmith7017]

Thanks for the update, Philip. It looks to be pretty true to the prototype schematic you posted earlier. Good luck on not changing your mind. As soon as I start laying track I come up with dozens of things I should have thought about. Its a shame you couldn't fit in the wye. I never could visualize how that would fit. You might be able to play around with the actual track once you start laying it out and find a configuration that works.

While the yard follows the prototype, you could operate it a little differently than how you have it labled - more of a classification yard - just by changing the roles of some of the track as I described before. Your operations will end up dictating how you use it.

Good luck and thanks for the opportunity to chime in. I might try to post my track plan here following your advice and see what kind of comments it generates. I've already got the lower staging yard level done so there might be time to make some changes.

- Jeff

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlsmith7017

I might try to post my track plan here following your advice and see what kind of comments it generates.

Yeah, start you a thread! Lets have a look! It really helped me, and I thought I'd thought of everything! [8D]