Merry Christmas to all and to all a Great Model railroad!!
I have a question for you guys, I 'm building a modern era Nscale layout, I will run six axle locos, double stacks, Amtrak and a excursion train the 4014 Big Boy. I would like to have either a hidden staging with a return loop or a helix which do you prefer, and how small of a loop can I get away with before my equipment derails, and for the Helix, how big should it be, and how many inches should the storage track should be from the top level. Please be safe and celebrate sensibly!!!
A helix is a means of gaining height and not very well suited as a storage for trains.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
I think if you can fit a hidden staging loop without having a helix go for it, helixes are complex and take up a lot of space, but a big staging loop also takes space, so the only reason you would want to go for a helix is if you lack space.
For hidden staging on a lower level, you may not need to build a very big helix, or perhaps just a short grade, and you don’t need much verticals space for staging.
Still the least complex (though like most space using) option is a staging loop.
Good luck with you Project whatever you chose!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
SPSOT fanthe only reason you would want to go for a helix is if you lack space.
Most folks are not aware of how much space is required for a helix! In N scale, your minimum radius should not be much under, say, 18", with 24" being better! That gives a helix a footprint of over 4 by 4 ft.! And, again, a helix is not a storage yard, just a long, winding piece of track. A proper staging yard lets you change the order change, in which trains appear again.
if you're contemplating using a helix for staging, you must have multiple decks and need at least a single track helix to get between levels. And presumably you already have space for reversing loops.
so is it a question of making the helix or the reversing loops multi-track?
if so, you can probably stage multiple trains on each additional helix track but stage only one train on an additional reversing loop track.
staging on the helix will require various detection circuits to properly position each train and will be difficult to access should there be a derailment.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
A helix as staging? I thought a helix was a way to get from one level to another.
Won't you still need a helix, or lots of room for a "nolix", to get to and from a staging area?
Mike.
My You Tube
I have seen layouts where a helix is used for staging of at least some trains in the most literal sense - they are kept out of sight on the helix until ready to appear on the visible part of the layout. The layout owner makes up those trains and places them in (on?) the helix prior to the operating session. That way there are trains made up and ready to go when the session starts. They are staged just where they would become visisble on the layout. Why the helix? Well maybe in part because they were trendy and were in the magazines when those layouts were being designed. It took a while after the initial excited article about helixes for the negatives to be brought up and discussed. They were prestige items at the time. And some guys like the challenge.
And while helixes do take up floor space, the square footage is concentrated. Mostly they take up verticle space, and sometimes guys can spare say 4' x 4' (16 sq. ft) of floor space to store trains that might need 12' or 15' or more of linear staging yard that the owner just does not have room for.
I think the more interesting argument is not helix versus hidden staging, but hidden staging versus visible staging, and active staging versus passive staging. My preference is for active, visible staging yards.
Not everyone means the same thing by the term "hidden staging." A staging yard in its own room with its own operator is to me not "hidden" staging even if it is not visible to visitors and other operators. To me hidden means on a lower level behind fascia, or under a mountain. No access. That kind of hidden staging can be a nightmare when something derails or shorts out.
Staging behind a backdrop but fully visible to and acccessible to the staging yardmaster is to me visible staging even if nobody on the other side of the backdrop can see or is supposed to see it.
Passive staging means that trains leave and enter staging and nothing is done with them during the session. They just sit there. Either the layout owner makes up and stocks the passive staging yard with trains before an operating session, or the trains get used exactly as is, session after session. Active staging means trains are made up during a session before departure, broken down and cars put away during a session after arrival, even if all that work is done by hand (fiddle yard) rather than using a switcher as in a genuine model of a yard.
Dave Nelson
I designed a layout years ago for a friend with a large visable lower level staging yard that was accessed at each end with a helix. It works very well. It is a double track mainline layout, so both the helixes are double track, and there is actually an east and west staging yard. It stages about 30 trains depending on length.
On my new layout I will use several types of staging. All will be hidden from the typical viewer or operator.
The layout is a double track "twice around" track plan, with the second loop around being hidden from view. Along that trackage there will be a series of two and three track staging yards on each of the mainline tracks.
This trackage will be accessed in several different ways. Some will be accessed via aisles behind the backdrop. In other places it will be behind scenery but actually open to the top. In other places it will be accessed from under the layout. I have done this before with very few problems.
Additional staging will be provided by a wye along the mainline. The third leg of the wye will leave the scene and lead to a 10 or 12 track stub end yard in the workshop area.
Occupancy of all staging tracks will be indicated on the dispatchers panel, and on several stratigicaly placed panels for operators. By watching the detection indicators, it will be possible to park trains and retrieve trains from staging tracks.
Using Dave Nelson's terminology, all the staging will be passive. The layout will stage about 30 trains, most 35-45 cars long.
The one visable main yard on the layout will be the sole place where trains are madeup and broken down. So some trains will return to staging different from when they came out, other trains will just "pass thru" unchanged.
Staging is not a new idea for me. My first layout, built for me when I was 10 by my father, had two passing sidings concealed behind the mountains across the back of the layout. There was an aisle behind the layout for easy access to the hidden trackage.
It was wired so that trains would enter the siding and stop, the the other train could proceed after the switch machines were thrown. All without the operator having to see the train.
Sheldon
You could use a 'no-lix', which is what I finally built this time around. I wanted staging, something I hadn't quite managed to finish due to design problems and moving. This time, I made my upper layer a folded loop, while at one end of a wide curve I placed a turnout with a diverging route into a portal. The portal leads to a gentle grade close to the wall, under a hill, around the room to a six track staging area below the main level on the opposite side of the room from the portal.
Use hidden parts of your benchwork and go around the room to a lower staging platform. A helix stakes up scads of room. Did it last time around, no regrets, but it commanded the entire layout.
My layout, partially double-decked, uses a 45' long nolix to gain altitude, and while it's possible to do continuous running on the main level, operations are normally point-to-point, between five staging yards, all dead-ended.
Trains are manually made-up and/or broken down in these yards, so they're visible and very accessible. If I wanted, I could use locomotives to sort the cars and assemble them into trains, but it's not really something in which I'm interested. When a train reaches its destination, some of its cars will be returned to their respective boxes (representing elsewhere), while others, usually picked-up along their route, will go out on another train, either for delivery somewhere along the route, or to another staging yard, to be removed (to a different elsewhere).
Here's a view of four of the staging yards...
The two lower ones each consist of only two tracks, while the next one up has five, with seven on the highest level. The fifth staging area is in my workshop, in an adjacent room, and also has two tracks.Cars going "elsewhere" return to their respective boxes on the shelves under the staging area, and new cars are drawn from the same storage area.
Everything is easy to see and easy to add or remove cars by-hand (although the second staging track up from the bottom is a bit tight, and is usually serviced by a switcher).
I'm personally not a fan of helices, as I'd rather have the trains in view, and with some scenery around them
Wayne
The Secretary of our club, Henk, is in the process of eliminating his helix and going with a 'nolix' instead. The helix took up too much space and he could only pull short trains up it, so he decided to pitch it out.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I am in this hobby for over 56 years and I have learned quite a few things while building the various layouts I had. Here are the most important lessons:
All of the above are sources of problems that could eventually take the fun out of the hobby. Whenever there is a derailment, it will always happen in places you can hardly reach.
Tinplate Toddler Whenever there is a derailment, it will always happen in places you can hardly reach.
Whenever there is a derailment, it will always happen in places you can hardly reach.
Alton Junction
In additon to my own layouts that have had hidden staging, for many years I was a member of a club, a somewhat well known club that has been featured in Model Railroader a number of times over the years. First featured in MR in June 1973.
The club layout is not really that large, many on this forum have layouts larger than this club layout. The layout space is only 12' x 36', an around the walls layout with a duckunder.
It has a moderate amount of hidden trackage, all accessed by going under the layout.
But good construction has meant very few operational problems and high levels of reliablity for some 60 plus years now.
There is a large return loop with multiple staging sidings, it works flawlessly. As do several other hidden stagging tracks. Detection circuits tell operators when their trains are completely in the staging tracks, trains come and go without any problems.
It can be done.
As for the helix, in my view they can work fine as well - BUT, to really work well, they need to be really big, NO LESS THAN 36" radius. This provides a gentle enough grade, 2% or less, and reduces string line forces to an acceptable level. Short of that, stay away.
That said, my new layout will feature two single turn helixes, to change elevation 4" and to extend the length of the mainline run. But again, they will be large, 36" and 38" radius double track, they will be hidden under scenery, and they will be easily accessed by just popping under the layout and reaching up into the middle of them.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNO LESS THAN 36" radius.
That´s for HO scale. The OP models in N scale, so 20" to 24" should be just fine.
Tinplate Toddler ATLANTIC CENTRAL NO LESS THAN 36" radius. That´s for HO scale. The OP models in N scale, so 20" to 24" should be just fine.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL NO LESS THAN 36" radius.
Yes, agreed, sorry, it is hard for me to think in N scale, I have never owned an N scale train.
For the OP:. how much space do you have, both total and how much do you want to dedicate to staging? And, how much time will you have available?
I built a long, linear staging area. It was 4 long tracks with a sort-of removable scenic cover. I still have all the sections, but I have to restart the project once I am putting the whole layout back up. There is a single track visible branch line parallel to the staging. At this point I am thinking of extending this into a reversing loop got to restore continuous running and to make the staging double ended.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Hi MisterBeasley.
The space that I will be working within is 10 x 20 200sq ft. I have been thinking and Iam going to use the hidden staging method, I would like to dedicate in length 4 1/2 feet, width since it will be behind a berm, I was thinking about 24 in. I”m not sure what you mean on how much time I will have available. But I would like to have a reversal loop as well, Oh yes, I want the same thing on the other end of my layout,
Thank You for your input....
Trainsrme1
Oh and one more thing, the reversal loop radii will be 24 inches in diameter!
N scale:
.
My "Dream House" N scale layout had hidden staging through a tunnel that then went through the wall into another room. To this day... this is my prefered best option for staging. No helix, only 18" of hidden track, no operational problems at all.
My friend Randy's N scale NORFOLK SOUTHERN has a helix leading to a hidden 8 track staging yard under the layout. The helix and hidden yard are all assembled with Kato Unitrack for ease of maintenance. Between sessions he removes one piece of Unitrack and the staging yard will lower 18 inches. Then he puts the locomotives on the other ends of the trains and raises the hidden yard back into position. After popping one piece of Unitrack back together he is ready for the next round of operations.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Tinplate ToddlerI am in this hobby for over 56 years and I have learned quite a few things while building the various layouts I had. Here are the most important lessons: Stay away from helices; Minimize hidden track; Stay away from hidden staging yards. All of the above are sources of problems that could eventually take the fun out of the hobby. Whenever there is a derailment, it will always happen in places you can hardly reach.
Listen very carefully to what he is saying.
I get the impression, possibly wrong, that what the OP wants to do is simulate the effect of mainline fleeting with intermodal trains on the 'slice' of visible mainline he's building. And this might be the one 'killer application' for which hidden staging yards connected to helices are a reasonable solution. I'm assuming that he knows the cost involved in having multiple trains and 'enough' locomotives to get the effect, including the switchgear to start and stop the individual trains.
The helices (or nolices) in such a scenario become principally methods of accessing the 'appearance' and 'disappearance' sites of the visible portion of route that the mainline trains will populate; you wouldn't want to park trains on them or jerk standing consists into motion. What comes into play here is the construction of the 'staging yard' on roller slides, so the (parallel) runs of track can be pulled out like a drawer for access, but lock into proper alignment when pushed in, and the arrangement has a 'backsplash' so even the most dramatic whoopsie derailments are contained for GHA. For truly long trains you'd probably need multiple levels of staging run, each reached with its own turn of helix or nolix, and this would require some careful ability to reach the portions of a derailed train that is longer than a given slide so you can lift cars out or uncouple and push to get the slide movable. And yes, the helices probably should have something like AC's "36-inch" radius ... not just because it makes for lower grade and better anti-stringline reliability, but because it allows even crusty curmudgeons a chance to rise up through the middle in case something derails there. (Remember that people have successfully deployed helices entirely outside the layout room, and even outside the house in a modular structure that can be put up and taken down when weather permits...)
I am still young enough to remember the joys of watching long trains of full-scale equipment at mainline speed, and I don't think there are many ways to achieve it even in a realistic 'compressed' footprint without a considerable amount of connected, continuous staging trackage 'out of sight' during the verisimilitude. Just be warned that the wiser railroad builders advise 'otherwise'.
Thanks overmod,
I appreciate all the input. And I'm looking for more, can any of you show me your layout staging pics??
TrainsRMe1 I would like to have either a hidden staging with a return loop or a helix which do you prefer
These aren't mutually exclusive and are often used together.
TrainsRMe1I would like to dedicate in length 4 1/2 feet
Once you allow for a yard ladder on each end, that's not much usable length.
TrainsRMe1Oh and one more thing, the reversal loop radii will be 24 inches in diameter!
Radius and diameter are two different (but related) things. A 12" radius (24" diameter) turnback curve in N scale will likely be too tight for the trains you want to run. A 24” radius curve (48” diameter) would be broader than you need and a waste of space for a hidden turnback curve.
Radius and diameter in model railroading
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
TrainsRMe1I appreciate all the input. And I'm looking for more
Does have to be said that you might at some point be a candidate for membership in the LD-SIG referenced in the preceding signature, or find one of their publications useful to your evolving interest:
http://www.ldsig.org/ldj-index
One way you can do this without a helix or second dec is to make the layout a twice around the room, with part of one lap along the long wall hidden behind a removable backdrop - there is where your staging tracks go.
Avoid a helix at all costs? There is no possible way to build what I want without having a helix and a second deck. I do not expect any trouble, any more than I've ever had trouble with any of my other trackwork (which is to say, none, since I graduated from sectional track to flex many moons ago). So many helix construction methods are WAY overly complicated, all sorts of threaded rods and then trying to get each turn exactly set correctly and then running additional jam nuts up to keep it from coming loose, etc. But I'll say it again, like I always say it - the ONLY part of the helix that needs any sort of careful fitting is the first and last turn - the first turn to transition from flat to climbing, and the last turn to transition from climbing to flat again. Like any greade, you need a vertical easement, you can't just bend the train from flat to a 2.5% grade with no transition space. However - EVERY intermediate loop of the helix uses the exact same size spacer, all around the circle! You just need to cut lots of duplicate pieces, easily done with a stop on your saw. No calculations, apart from figuing out just how long these pieces have to be, then you make as many as you need, all identical. Threaded rods? Notched masonite or plywood to hold each level? Why bother?
I was happy to see they did just this on Candian Canyons. Watch the videos on building that helix, it's a pretty good way to go. And it seems to work just fine even with those long modern locos and cars they run on that layout, so the radius and grade are compatible with modern modeling in N scale.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
"Avoid a helix at all costs"? Sounds like someone did a bad job of building a helix.
My layout is essentially a small slice of a busy transcon mainline. A helix at each end connects to a big lower level, double-ended staging yard. It holds over a dozen long trains and is easily accessible. I have been operating the layout for over ten years and have found that the helices are every bit as reliable as the rest of the trackage. The only derailment issues I've ever had with them is in those key transition zones where the grades level out, which another poster mentioned. I expect you'd have the same issues with a nolix or any other section of track on a grade. You have to operate it for a while to get all the kinks out before making it inaccessible with scenery. And even with scenery in place, I made sure that I could always access all parts of the helix from the inside.
As for space requirements, if you have room for return loop staging you have room for a helix. Why not take advantage of all that space below the layout for staging?
For me, the main downside of a helix is all the time a train spends on it. For people who prefer to watch their trains at all times rather than sitting there waiting for it to show up, I can understand their objection to a helix!
I have considered maing one loop in my helix at least partially visible, although such a scenic element would not quite be right for the area being represented (but then I'm not doing a perfect rendition of any actual place anyway). At the very least, I will have each layer as its own detection block and have indicators on the fascia so an engineer can see the progress of their train. It's simpel enough to do, and hopefully enough to avoid the ever increasing speed as the operator gets anxious, only to have the train shoot out of the top at warp speed.