selectorThey may even want a small per-diem of about $100/day to pay for meals and lodging.
Actually the ad went on to say that there would be an additional amount paid to cover some expenses, so all that gets an adder when billed to the client.
And many contractors want to purchase their own materials because they get a contractor's discount. Then they pocket the discount and bill the client, either retail or retail plus.
An additional issue that comes up when the client purchases material is when the purchased item is either wrong or doesn't fit. Who is responsibile for that? And if there is a product warranty issue, who has the responsibility for correcting that?
DoughlessGolly. At that rate and a standard 5 day, 40 hour work week which is 2,000 hours per year, that's an annual salary of $200,000.
.
We charge about $140.00 per hour for a skilled engine technician.
They earn about $80,000.00 to $100,000.00 per year.
Skilled labor and trades are only getting more expensive. Ever tried to train a Millenial? They expect instant gratification and have the attention span of a deranged gnat or maybe a spastic goldfish.
Skilled labor that requires years to hone is becoming very difficult to pass on to the next generation.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
DavidH66 I've been considering getting my layout designed, and the Benchwork, Trackwork, and Electrical done. It would be roughly a 10x10 layout so I think that would help keep costs down. Does anyone have expirience with hiring out builders for your layout, if so How was it?
I've been considering getting my layout designed, and the Benchwork, Trackwork, and Electrical done. It would be roughly a 10x10 layout so I think that would help keep costs down. Does anyone have expirience with hiring out builders for your layout, if so How was it?
David, I am having my layout benchwork built by professionals. To help you roughly compare and to respect the vendor I am not going to use exact costs because I was also a independent businessman and if you post exact costs and the specific vendor on a public forum everyone from then on will try and nickle and dime the firm, which I don't think is fair to their business. So will use a rough analogy on costs so they do not have to deal with future clients that might read this insisting they are too expensive.
So my layout they are doing the trackplan and benchwork construction only. I am doing the track, wiring, and scenery (this is reducing costs). Obviously there is some overlap here, with the benchwork they are doing the wiring guides underneath to align with the track plan so that the wiring remains organized vs spaghetti. Additionally they will make an effort to align benchwork supports to avoid potential switch machine placement (best efforts not 100%). They will place a facia on the benchwork for switch machine controls, partially hide wiring and switch machines, etc.
My HO Scale layout is being constructed in a 10 by 11 bedroom with two levels and a helix connecting both levels so that trains can run continuously between levels. They asked me to submit a draft track plan and reviewed it but after speaking with me stated they would like to amend the track plan to be more flexible operationally because they thought I would get bored quickly with what I submitted. Told them that was fine with me.
So items that will impact benchwork are: Min radius 30 inches, Min turnout - Atlas #6, One flat switching yard, closed loop, want DCC blocks, Longest train about 6-7 feet. So that alone is a lot of work and engineering that has to be done. Additionally they have to work around a window and a door. Set optimal distance from the floor for the first tabletop to match my height, optimal distance between level 1 and level 2. Optimal support structure so I can clean the floor underneath the benchwork as well as crawl underneath. On top of all that I want it to be modular so when I move I can take it with me and reassemble in the new home.
In all their bid was about what I would expect to pay for a large quality custom built-in entertainment center (built by an experienced carpenter and not using particle board). Which I feel is reasonable.
Your requirements for them to lay the trackwork and do the wiring and scenery is going to increase the costs quite a bit from what I am paying. Additionally they built into the contract what are called "settle up costs" which allows them to go over the estimate we agreed on if they need to or refund me if they come in significantly under the estimate. I think that is fine and also reasonable. Others in the hobby might have conniptions over that "wiggle room". However, it allows either party to change designs or approaches without haveing to re-estimate everything but while still remaining reasonable on costs and not using that clause of the contract to gouge.
They also established a multi-month payment plan with deadlines on the payments and a specific amount you have to deposit down to start the work (I asked for that). So they have a month or two for planning and construction. I signed the contract in August and since they have to also attend train shows and fall was approaching I told them to be reasonable, they can take up to Christmas for all I care. I just wanted them to complete by 2018 if possible. They said they could probably meet that deadline. I also asked them to delay until September because I was in the middle of a debt consolidation so would have a cash flow issues in September. They did that as well.
Great working relationship established, both speak the same lingo as I have been in the Hobby before and exited in 1990. They are updating me in places from 1990 to current with the DCC controller. So far so good, I am getting great value via their consulting and advice. :)
DavidH66Why? This is my first serious Layout. I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right. I don't feel like I could do a worthy enough job. Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
Agree with you, and this is my fourth HO Scale layout. If your new because of the complexity of everything fitting together, best to apprentice at a club or have someone build for you the first layout. Building it yourself will be an iterative process otherwise and will cost you more typically than you will pay an outside firm to review your track plan and redo it to make it better.
BigDaddy You can't really expect a professional to cut you a break, just because it could be done cheaper if you you had the tools and skills to do it yourself. Building benchwork won't bring in the money of remodeling a kitchen. Would you rather spend 2 days working on a $500 job or a $3,000 job? How you would find a railroad 'electrician' that would solder and wire your railroad for a couple hundred bucks is beyond my imagination.
You can't really expect a professional to cut you a break, just because it could be done cheaper if you you had the tools and skills to do it yourself.
Building benchwork won't bring in the money of remodeling a kitchen. Would you rather spend 2 days working on a $500 job or a $3,000 job?
How you would find a railroad 'electrician' that would solder and wire your railroad for a couple hundred bucks is beyond my imagination.
Disagree and it depends. If you live in a major metro area and the outside firm can batch projects together they will take your small project. The visit to my home for initial consulting coincided with another visit they needed to make to Dallas........so they combined my project in the Dallas area with another one.
Same deal with home contractors as well. Home contractors will take smaller jobs if they can combine them with others in your area. It depends on where you live.
Now if you live in Moose Jaw, Montana and your nearest nieghbor is across the county........I would agree with you.
So has any conclusion by the original poster been made while everyone has been debating this whole thing? Does the OP have the "scratch" to do what he is wanting in light of the costs?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761So has any conclusion by the original poster been made while everyone has been debating this whole thing?
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/265330/2998503.aspx#2998503
I am a 70 year old retired, and partially disabled. My first layout was a 8x10 HO layout in 1960. I college in the 60’s I ran N-scale track on a ping-pong table. Over 20 years of military service and 20+ years in private industry that had me on the move, along with raising a family, meant I never built the layout of my dreams. But I had a dream and about locomotives, buildings and other items that fit into my dream layout.
I was lucky to find a professional builder in my area. He quickly showed me my dream layout was impractical considering the handicap I had (lost most of the use of my legs). He designed a layout to fit in the third garage (12x22). His design probably cost about $6,000. The layout consists of the main level, with a helix down to a twelve track staging area. Total layout has about 125 turnouts. The contract to build as you want, benchwork, track, DCC installation and other electrical work including signals, will cost me about $45,000 plus materials (lumber, track, cork, wire, bridges, tunnel portals, turntable, etc). Materials were estimated at about $20,000.
We are now about half finished. He has completed and tested the helix, and about half of the upper level track. He is the ultimate professional. His design included benchwork that allowed for the positioning of all 125 tortoise machines without special work-arounds. As I have watched him build this layout, I know that even if I were fully capable (like I was 10 years ago), I could not have built a layout with the degree of perfection that he has. I was planning on doing the scenery myself (I am already assembling some of the structures), but I may have him do some of the scenery (phase 2) of the layout.
Bottom line: in my case, hiring a professional was necessary. The cost is high, but if you can afford it, I would recommend going that route.
A 10x10 layout is a comfortable size for a home (mine is 11x15, trackwork/wiring is nearing 90% complete). I have to echo the thoughts of a few here and say that while the tablework, track and wiring can be daunting (but not overwhelming with a little help), there is great satisfaction when someone walks into the train-room and says "Wow!". There are so many skills to be learned. Not necessarily perfected but learned nevertheless. Enough on that. Many folks approach layout design (which obviously includes those "three") from a "How much can I pack into this space?" If you "pack in" a lot, it increases design time, building time, track laying time and complexity, wiring time and complexity, maintenance and cleaning, and eventually the frustration from trying to "do it all" in a small space (and "small" is definitely a relative term) and having to clean the track and dust your miniature empire. Whether you're building it yourself or having it built, complexity of plan will raise time required, costs and frustration levels in the near term as well as "down the road".
Lets wrap this up and get off the soapbox! There's a great little article in Model Railroader titled "Don't Build Too Much Railroad" that really hits the nail on the head. One quote.....
"In designing a layout we are perhaps too accustomed to thinking of our Railroad as a complete unit. Think of the "essential" part of your layout as simply a scene. Then, instead of cramming a whole division into one room, we can build a better scale scene typical of the railroad we want to represent and leave the rest of the division to the imagination."
Great article! Save money, time and frustration and have more fun! Oh yes, the Article..... March 1941.
STUART SIBITZKYThink of the "essential" part of your layout as simply a scene.
My next layout will feature only one city, and the operation will be the trains running through, switching in, or originating in this city.
The STRATTON & GILLETTE is a massive Class A railroad, but I am going to model only 0.01% of it this time. There are too many compromises trying to model a run in between cities inside of a house. Especially when you are limited to a 11 by 22 single deck layout with no duckunders.
Modeling one scene on a big system looks like my best choice this time around.
DavidH66 MisterBeasley To me and most on this forum, building a layout is part of the hobby, and it's the part many of us take the most pleasure and pride in. I kept track of my time, and found it took me about one month for every square foot of layout. I spent most of my time on detailed scenery, but that time includes building both structures and rolling stock from kits, tracklaying and wiring. Why? This is my first serious Layout. I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right. I don't feel like I could do a worthy enough job. Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
MisterBeasley To me and most on this forum, building a layout is part of the hobby, and it's the part many of us take the most pleasure and pride in. I kept track of my time, and found it took me about one month for every square foot of layout. I spent most of my time on detailed scenery, but that time includes building both structures and rolling stock from kits, tracklaying and wiring.
Why? This is my first serious Layout. I want the core part of the lay out (Wiring and benchwork) done right. I don't feel like I could do a worthy enough job. Also I do infact have a few ideas drawn down on paper for a track plan, but I've been drawing freehand so I'm not sure how plausible some of the stuff I am drawing done is. So I'd like someone to help tweek the plan to make it more feasible.
I have another data point via the latest email from MR. There is a firm that will design your plan for $1,000 for up to 800 sq thread.
In another thread someone was asking about a full size track plan, that would be $3/ sq ft on paper 2-3 feet wide by 24 feet long.
The name of the firm is in the latest email.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Doesn't look like the OP (original poster) has joined back in his discussion??
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration