I have an 8' x 12' room that I am going to put a new layout in. Given my less-than-stellar carpentry skills I decided to make it simple and go with a 24'W wall-mounted shelf layout instead of standard benchwork. The idea seemed simple; install 18" or 24" heavy-duty L-brackets on each (or every other) stud, mount 1/2" plywood on top of it, add 1" extruded foam for scenery and be done. All electronics would be mounted to the plywood underneath.
I began looking on the internets and was amazed at the elaborate wall mounting schemes I ran into; L-girders, open-framed benchwork, etc. I may be being too simplistic but they seemed a bit of overkill to me. Is there a reason that my initial thought wouldn't work or isn't recommended? I can't think of anything other than wiring crossing over the L-brackets. Please advise and thanks.
It will warp and other problems. Build a frame with 1x4s and top with 2" foam. Making your own brackets is easy and much cheaper than the ready made but ready made work too. To get by with a smaller bracket make an l shape in 1x4s and mount the bracket to that, that way you can use an 18" bracket instad of a 24" and easier to mount too.
I'd suggest that you use 3/4" plywood, with brackets at each stud, as long as the studs are on 16" centres. Anything wider and the plywood will eventually sag - perhaps not a great deal, but enough to be noticeable on a model railway. The advantage of adding a framework under the plywood is that it allows space for the wiring and any other under-layout necessities, such as switch machines. It will also allow the use of far fewer support brackets.I've recently added a partial second level to my layout and used 5/8" plywood atop a frame of 1"x2" and 1"x4". The 1"x4" is mostly for the front member to facilitate the mounting of electrical switches (DC operation) and fascia, although I built all of it in easily-handled sections and used 1"x4" for the end members of each section. Layout depth ranges from 25" to 31" and is supported by custom made brackets constructed from 1" and 1 1/2" angle iron. All sections are attached to the walls at the stud locations and to one another where they abut.
This section is 25"x15' and attached at the near end to the wall, with two brackets supporting the balance:
This section is 31"x17' supported with four brackets (the near one, out of the picture, is a second arm of the far one in the previous picture, and welded at a 90° angle to it) The far end of this one is supported by the end section, which is 38"x9' and attached at three sides to the walls - it uses no brackets:
The third section is 31"x10' and is supported similar to the second section, but with three brackets:
Because the sections were added above the existing layout, the framework was built and erected in easily-handled sections, then the plywood top added after the frame was in place. Once the plywood was screwed in place, the whole structure became surprisingly rigid. The lower portion of the layout is 3/4" roadbed on risers, with scenery made from plaster on aluminum screen. For the upper level, the track will be mostly on cork roadbed directly atop the plywood, but I may add some foam in some places in order to create water features.
As rrebell suggests, you can get away with using a framework topped only by thicker foam, eliminating the plywood altogether. However, I'd suggest the framework topped by 3/8" or 1/2" plywood, with 1" or 2" foam, as appropriate for your scenery requirements. The plywood adds strength, but it also simplifies the mounting of switch machines and any other stuff which requires under-layout mounting.
Wayne
bdasaI may be being too simplistic but they seemed a bit of overkill to me.
The array of benchwork types model railroaders use allows for variation in track elevation versus ground level (especially ground falling below tracks as in the case of culverts and river crossings), access for wiring, etc.If one of the shelf brackets falls at the exact point where you'd like to place a switch machine, the benefit of risers above a framework of some sort becomes clear. This technique also makes it much easier to add elevation changes.As others have noted, unsupported 1/2" plywood may warp or sag between brackets. A slight sag that wouldn't be a problem for a bookshelf creates issues for model trains, especially in HO and smaller scales.
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If you have the skills and the tools, I would make a frame out of 1x2's that you cut yourself (I can't buy 1x2's in my area), then put a piece of Luaun on top of that, then your one inch foam. My present layouts benchwork is similar although I used furring strips (1x3) with the luaun and foam and it is working well. As for turnout machines having to be put where a frame member is, just do a little advanced planning with your track arrangement and you won't have that problem.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I would probably skip the luan - and maybe step up to a 1x3 for the basic frming member. On my previous layout, I put a layer of luan plywood under the foam and it was pretty noisy. My layout before that, was a basic 1x4 grid benchwork and then the 2" foam was glued right on top of that. Not nearly as noisy. Yes, it does may switch motor installation a bit more complicated but not impossible - in fact after I had most of them in I experimented with an alternative of using caulk to glue them right to the bottom fo the foam and I think that would have worked just fine too.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
LION built these brackets.
It is a three level table, but since it is heavy concrete wall, all of the weight is on the floor, only a few screws attach it to the wall, that to keep it from tipping. Even so the LION found that a firm edge was necessary to lateral stability, something that you cannot do well with metal brackets. But each to his own.
Here is the table with a layhout on it.
LION mounts his wires on the fascia, a finished fascia will go over the top of the wires. It will be held on with magnets so that it can be quickly removed for access to the wires.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
i think you would be interested in Tony Koesters book on Multi-Deck Layouts
he has a section on using metal brackets and keeping the shelf thin in order to maximize the distance between decks
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Bdasa,
Most modelers don't really understand woodworking and end up grossly overbuilding their benchwork. It is amazing how strong lightweight construction can be if it is done correctly!
I don't see any problem with your original plan for a shelf style layout. I would look at the big box DIY stores for the type of shelving bracket you'll need (most are labeled with a weight rating). Make sure you attach these brackets to your wall studs with screws at least 2 1/2" to 3" long. Keep in mind that the top screw does most of the work so make sure it is driven into the center of the stud.
Lots of additional strength can be added and potential plywood warpage controlled by adding a fascia strip along the front edge of the plywood shelves and another stiffening strip along the rear edge (either above or below). I would cut 3" wide fascia strips from 1/2" plywood, then cut a 1/2" wide dado 3/16" deep and 1" below the top each of these fascia strips. You can then glue these to the front edge of the shelving plywood so that they cover the front edge of the 1" thick extruded foam plus provide about 1 1/2" of fascia below the plywood shelf to hide your wiring. I like to use 18 gauge wire brads to tack everything together while the glue dries but its the glue that makes the joint really strong. I would also glue 1 1/2" wide strips of 1/2" plywood on edge to the underside of the shelving at the rear edge of the plywood. You could do this by cutting these strips to length to fit between the shelving brackets or use longer strips with notches cut to clear the brackets. Add glue blocks where necessary.
With the "T" section at the front of the 1/2" plywood shelf and the "L" section at the rear of the shelf, a truly rigid shelving system with minimal warping should result. If you can afford it, buy cabinet grade plywood instead of CDX or ACX plywood (don't use MDF or OSB). Cabinet grade plywood has a nice surface finish on both sides and no voids inside. It is also far less prone to warpage. This construction should be more than adequate to support your trains AND scenery, as long as you're not planning to dance on your layout, too!
Hornblower
As you mentioned, there are all kinds of brackets and the answers above speak of a lot of them. I am going to recommend using 2" foam rather than 1". It gives you much more leaway for below track modeling. In HO, it is about 14.5', about double that for N. Makes it so that rivers and auto road underpasses are more easily installed.
I'm coming up on the decision of how to mount my shelf, if I ever get the suspended ceiling installed. My first problem is going to be the two cement walls, to stud up and lose more layout space or to attach brackets to the concrete.
Good luck,
Richard
cowman....I'm coming up on the decision of how to mount my shelf, if I ever get the suspended ceiling installed. My first problem is going to be the two cement walls, to stud up and lose more layout space or to attach brackets to the concrete.
The loss of 8"-10" of layout space sounds like a very reasonable trade-off for finished walls, and, if it's needed, insulation. Finished walls can also be your backdrop for a shelf-type layout. It'll also make it easier to install the suspended ceiling, and a finished room is a much nicer environment in which to build a layout.
I used metal shelf brackets from HD since I didnt want to mess with cutting and measuring. I used 18" wide by 79" bi-fold doors for my platform topped with 1/2" dow board. The layup was extremely light. Once the fascia was attached to the side of the doors all feeder and bus wires were hidden.
The brackets come in several lengths and do not necessarily need to be the width of the door panel. I find them stronger than wood with no effort in bolting them to the side wall.
doctorwayne I'd suggest that you use 3/4" plywood, with brackets at each stud, as long as the studs are on 16" centres. Anything wider and the plywood will eventually sag - perhaps not a great deal, but enough to be noticeable on a model railway. The advantage of adding a framework under the plywood is that it allows space for the wiring and any other under-layout necessities, such as switch machines. It will also allow the use of far fewer support brackets.I've recently added a partial second level to my layout and used 5/8" plywood atop a frame of 1"x2" and 1"x4". The 1"x4" is mostly for the front member to facilitate the mounting of electrical switches (DC operation) and fascia, although I built all of it in easily-handled sections and used 1"x4" for the end members of each section. Layout depth ranges from 25" to 31" and is supported by custom made brackets constructed from 1" and 1 1/2" angle iron. All sections are attached to the walls at the stud locations and to one another where they abut. This section is 25"x15' and attached at the near end to the wall, with two brackets supporting the balance: This section is 31"x17' supported with four brackets (the near one, out of the picture, is a second arm of the far one in the previous picture, and welded at a 90° angle to it) The far end of this one is supported by the end section, which is 38"x9' and attached at three sides to the walls - it uses no brackets: The third section is 31"x10' and is supported similar to the second section, but with three brackets: Because the sections were added above the existing layout, the framework was built and erected in easily-handled sections, then the plywood top added after the frame was in place. Once the plywood was screwed in place, the whole structure became surprisingly rigid. The lower portion of the layout is 3/4" roadbed on risers, with scenery made from plaster on aluminum screen. For the upper level, the track will be mostly on cork roadbed directly atop the plywood, but I may add some foam in some places in order to create water features. As rrebell suggests, you can get away with using a framework topped only by thicker foam, eliminating the plywood altogether. However, I'd suggest the framework topped by 3/8" or 1/2" plywood, with 1" or 2" foam, as appropriate for your scenery requirements. The plywood adds strength, but it also simplifies the mounting of switch machines and any other stuff which requires under-layout mounting. Wayne
rrebellThere is another reason to not use ply, all that spacing that people do so their track will not warp is do to the expantion and contraction of wood. NS track will expand on its own very little, foam almost nothing. Now I must admit that the foam over ply might not have an expantion problem. Also ply has a lot of weight to it also.
I used plywood on the upper level mainly for its strength - it gives rigidity to the framework, which helps to support the under-mounted lighting, but also allows me to place my weight on it when laying track or when adding scenic details to the hard-to-reach areas.
As for expansion or contraction issues, I have had none. All of my track is on plywood, either cut-out 3/4" plywood curves, or flat areas of plywood where there is more than a single track. The mainlines are mostly also on cork roadbed, but there are many areas where the track is directly atop plywood. All rail joints are soldered, and despite the high and widely varying humidity here in southern Ontario, I've never had a problem with the track.
For my next layout:
Have the home store cut the 3/4 inch ply into 2, 2x8 sections.
Lay 3 1x3's on their ends, spaced equidistant, then glue and finish-nail the ply to the three sticks. From the underside, the longer sticks would run perpendicular to the way Wayne has his, meaning, along the length of the ply section.
I would have the ply overhang the sticks on one end, and come up short on the other end, by about a foot. This would allow the ply of one section attach to the sticks of the other. That way, the seams of the sticks and the ply are staggered and make for a smoother top.
Screw short 1x3's to brackets, laid flatly, so that it provides a surface by which to lay the ply module onto and screw into wherever needed along the flat 1x3. Screw the section's sticks to the flat 1x3's from the underside, and the ply overhang to the sticks of the adjacent section from the topside. This would make each section portable in case the layout is relocated.
Install facia if desired. Run wiring along the underside of the section, with the 1x3 long sticks allowing spacing along the entire layout without having to drill a bunch of holes into joists.
I would alther the height of the brackets to allow some sections to be installed at lower height that other, making for a natural dip to create under track fills, rivers and such. Of course, the ply sections could not all overlap each other where the heights were different.
- Douglas
This layout will be in my "finished" basement. I am not sure (yet) how "standard" the previous owner of the house built the joists behind the drywall. Did he furr out the concrete enough for decent screws? I don't know yet.
I am leaning towards attaching a 2x2 or 2x4 along the wall spanning all joists to act as a "ledge" and also spread the load out. Mount brackets below it with the same size boards attached to the top to make it flush. Attach the plywood to the ledge and shelf risers. Add a fascia to the front, above to cover foam and below to cover wiring. Sound feasible?
bdasa This layout will be in my "finished" basement. I am not sure (yet) how "standard" the previous owner of the house built the joists behind the drywall. Did he furr out the concrete enough for decent screws? I don't know yet. I am leaning towards attaching a 2x2 or 2x4 along the wall spanning all joists to act as a "ledge" and also spread the load out. Mount brackets below it with the same size boards attached to the top to make it flush. Attach the plywood to the ledge and shelf risers. Add a fascia to the front, above to cover foam and below to cover wiring. Sound feasible?
Yup.
I would: Run a 1x3 along the wall as a ledge. Attach brackets to the wall underneath the ledge. Then run a 1x3 along the top of the front edge of each bracket. Place 2 x 8 or shorter 3/4 ply sections on the two 1 x3's and attach with screws.
Some toughts:
2 x4 is overkill, and they are often twisted and hard to work with. 1 x 3s are easier. You can double up a 1 x as the ledger if you want more depth.
The only issue with your (our) approach is you will need to find brackets that are 24 inches deep. Not easy to find ..and expensive.
Or, make them youself out of 1 x.
Or, attach 23 1/4 inch (less ledgerboard depth) boards (or L girder boards pointed down) onto the smaller brackets you'll typically find at the home store, to support the front ledger.
Attaching boards to the brackets would also allow you to run a third 1 x3 along the middle of the shelf, to prevent any sagging that might occure over time with an unsupported 24 inch span. Also, 3/4 ply can stand a few inches of overhang, so the brackets can be shallower than 24 inches.
Also, plan for under rail scenery in the layout by placing the ledger board and brackets a few inches lower in some sections than others.
In my 10x10 room I used $1 steel shelving brackets and 1"x9" shelving from Lowes. I didnt want to use plywood because that does warp. Thus, you have to make framework for it.
The layout has been up for two years now and no problems. Is sturdy enough to hold 2 -25lb barbell weights (per 9"x6' section). My wall studs are 16" centered, but if your house is newer than 1985.... good luck even finding a wall stud (24" to 36" studs!!) Much less one made of wood. Not recommended to skip studs in new houses.
The structure went up in around two hours (all measuring, cutting, screwing) and would come down even quicker. And since i used shelving, its moduler. When removed, youd never know the layout was there thus preserving the room.
As for wiring, luckily, the brackets I used were rounded right in the L-bend making it easy to run the wiring harness through there (back lip of shelf). Again, no need for a frame to give clearance under the layout for wiring from the brackets.
All in all for such a simplistic way of doing it (im used to the 1x4 gridwork), it works just as good as any other ive built. I have less than $60 in the benchwork.
If MR would host pictures instead of trusting some 3rd world site, i could post a few. Looks alot like what the user ("Camero") above posted.