Now,let's dig deeper first.
A shorter 6 axle locomotive like the SD7/9 RSD12,RSD 4/5,SD35,SD24 shouldn't have any issues with #4s since these will negotiate a 18" curve.
A BB SD40-2 or any BB C-C unit shouldn't have any issues on #4s either since they will negotiate a 18" curve.This goes for the Bachmann SD40-2 as well.
Longer wheel base 6 axle units will go through the Custom Line C83 #4 switch at restricted speed because of the more gentle diverging route .
My lessons learned.
Side to side wheel play and coupler swing plays a part in negotiating a switch or sharp curve.The manufacturers designed it that way.
Different sizes of #4 switches from various manufacturers.Took me a long time to see the difference in design and curvature of the diverging route.
Snap switch crossovers will work but,should be avoid.
In HO or N one should always use the largest switch possible but,for us that don't have that luxury use a #4 with a gentle diverging route.Use snap switches as a last resort.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
It's important to bear in mind that there's a difference between what will run through a switch pulling and trying to shove a string of cars into a yard (espcailly with truck-mounted couplers as in N scale). Also, as I noted before, the Atlas "#4" is actually a #4 1/2.
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cuyamaIt's important to bear in mind that there's a difference between what will run through a switch pulling and trying to shove a string of cars into a yard (espcailly with truck-mounted couplers as in N scale).
One way to overcome that is to body mount MT #1015-1-B coupler.Also as you know some manufacturers are waking up and body mounting the couplers on their newer releases.
I never had issues with MT or Atlas/Accumate couplers on my N Scale switching layouts other then MT's normal slinky effect..Of course I operated at scale switching speeds and not at Mach 5 speeds like many do.I have no doubts you have seen that as well.
From my own experience after tweaking the old #4's, I can run a lash-up of four BB box SD40-2's into a #4 IND.siding along with pushing two 89ft Intermodel flats without a problem,but not a warp speed and I don't have any #4's on my double track mainline, they are all #6's that come off the main with a lead to a #4 and also some wyes which are as small as #4's, but I have the room to do that though. I also if you look at the #4 you took off Rich, you will notice the deverging route the point side is straight, I put a little bend in them, to match the small curve going into the frog and that helped considerably. A little work and they work, sticker price 10.75, why not?
Cheers,
Frank
BRAKIE Of course I operated at scale switching speeds and not at Mach 5 speeds like many do.I have no doubts you have seen that as well.
Of course I operated at scale switching speeds and not at Mach 5 speeds like many do.I have no doubts you have seen that as well.
Around here we call it "Tyco-ing in the Yard". It's an epidemic.
zstripe From my own experience after tweaking the old #4's, I can run a lash-up of four BB box SD40-2's into a #4 IND.siding along with pushing two 89ft Intermodel flats without a problem,but not a warp speed and I don't have any #4's on my double track mainline, they are all #6's that come off the main with a lead to a #4 and also some wyes which are as small as #4's, but I have the room to do that though. I also if you look at the #4 you took off Rich, you will notice the deverging route the point side is straight, I put a little bend in them, to match the small curve going into the frog and that helped considerably. A little work and they work, sticker price 10.75, why not? Cheers, Frank
I like my solution better.
I took out the Atlas #4 and threw it in a drawer, replacing it with a Peco that fit right into its place.
Now, my BLI E6s, E7s, and E8/9s all come into and out of the diesel servicing facility even at warp speeds.
That was even less work than a little work.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich,
Whatever works for you and that is the point. You don't want to tweak, fine. But I don't believe it is fair to say that they won't work, just going by your experience and that is another point.
richhotrain I'd like to go back to the basic issue of running 6-axle diesels and 85' or longer rolling stock through a true #4 turnout. Can it be consistently done without derailments? Rich
I'd like to go back to the basic issue of running 6-axle diesels and 85' or longer rolling stock through a true #4 turnout. Can it be consistently done without derailments?
I have learned the hard way never to say never in this hobby. While I might never be able to make it happen, there are always a few that can and do.
The only "true" #4 turnouts (to NMRA published dimensions) are those built to or using Fast Tracks templates/dimensions. All the other commercial #4 turnouts I know of modify the NMRA dimensions in some way to allow passage of bigger rolling stock and locomotives.
The HO NMRA #4 turnout has a closure rail radius of about 15". But the curve at this radius is very short - about 2.5" long (see RP 12.3). So only one truck is on this sharp radius at a time. For six wheel trucks, the question is whether or not the middle axle has sufficient play to avoid derailing on this short curve. The points have a curve radius of 43", so there are no problems there. The frog angle is 14 degrees, which is within the capability of many-to-most trucks to pivot.
My answer would be eminently doable with very good-to-excellent trackwork, assuming there are no further sharp curves immediately adjacent to the turnout, and assuming the trucks can manage that 2.5" of 15" radius. On commercial #4 turnouts, which are more spread out and have a larger closure rail radius, it would be easier.
Would I bother trying to make it happen? Probably not. Insufficient room for big curves and large turnouts is a contributing reason for me choosing to model earely rail, and narrow gauge.
Fred W
zstripe Rich, Whatever works for you and that is the point. You don't want to tweak, fine. But I don't believe it is fair to say that they won't work, just going by your experience and that is another point. Cheers, Frank
Fair?
Not fair?
Frank, early on in this thread, I said that 6-axle diesels and 80'+ rolling stock would not easily negotiate #4 turnouts. And I also said that it was my recollection that many others felt that way too.
I don't understand what the issue of fairness has to do with it. It is my experience and that of others as well. The OP asked for opinions based upon actual experience. That is what I gave him.
richhotrainThe OP asked for opinions based upon actual experience.
That he did and I shared my experience based on years of building and operating small(small= 1x10' or less ) HO switching layouts and the lessons learn was priceless as far as what can and can not be done.
Those snap switch crossover I mention..I used them on 3 different ISLs.Good for 4 axle diesels or small steamers and 40-50' cars.
I can switch cars as easily in N as I can HO and experience was the professor in the school of lessons learned.
richhotrain I'm not buying it Larry. If 85' cars could easily negotiate #4 turnouts, we wouldn't bother with #6 and #8 turnouts. Rich
I'm not buying it Larry.
If 85' cars could easily negotiate #4 turnouts, we wouldn't bother with #6 and #8 turnouts.
I believe that nothing more need's to be said.
zstripeI believe that nothing more need's to be said.
OK, then *I* will say it. Where are you trying to save space on your yard???
At the end? You want LONGER tracks? Smalles switch numbers are shorter and will take up less length, BUT the wide angle of the diversion means that you may only put four tracks where you could put five tracks with a bigger frog number. LION gets the best of both worlds by using no.6 turnouts and then cutting them shorter so I can put more of them closer together.
The gemoetry of the yard makes a difference too. A ladder takes up a lot of space, building the ladder on a curve takes up less space, other configureations can give you longer tracks as well. This has been written about, so the LION will not try to remember it or explain it to you.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Lion,
I'm not the one trying to save space and I'm not the one having problem's getting an Atlas #4 working right either.
BroadwayLion LION gets the best of both worlds by using no.6 turnouts and then cutting them shorter so I can put more of them closer together.
Or you can get the best of all worlds by skipping the Atlas #4 altogether and installing a Peco #6 which is the same length as the Atlas #4.
Or, you can do what Frank does, buy an Atlas #4, tweak it by filing at the points to provide a better fit at the stock rail, then put CA on the throwbar so it doesn't move, then bend the point rail on the diverging track to match the small curve going into the frog.
richhotrain BroadwayLion LION gets the best of both worlds by using no.6 turnouts and then cutting them shorter so I can put more of them closer together. Or you can get the best of all worlds by skipping the Atlas #4 altogether and installing a Peco #6 which is the same length as the Atlas #4.
Actually, both Lion's point re length vs. number of tracks and your point about Peco #6s and Atlas #4s are quite helpful. I'll have to take those into consideration when I decide which switches to buy...hopefully before too long here.
richhotrainOr you can get the best of all worlds by skipping the Atlas #4 altogether and installing a Peco #6 which is the same length as the Atlas #4.
Ah Rich,you made go measure..Sure enough a nicer switch at the same length.I never notice that before.
Truth be told, it was all accidental.
Early on in my HO scale ventures back in 2004, I bought a bunch of Atlas #4 turnouts. But, over time, I moved exclusively to Atlas #6 turnouts.
Then, in 2012, I bought a pair of Peco #6 turnouts and matching crossings to get from my outer main line track, across my inner main line track, into my passenger station. It was then that I first realized that the Peco #6 was only 9 inches in length (just like the Atlas #4) compared to the Atlas #6 which was 12 inches in length.
More recently, I took one of those old Atlas #4 turnouts and installed it at the beginning of the track ladder in my diesel servicing facility. All the other turnouts were Atlas #6. After the ladder was completed and ballasted, I realized the problem with the 6-axle diesels. I was in no mood to take out and rebuild the ladder, so it was then that I decided to install the Peco #6 turnout.
Think about it. A ladder built out of Peco #6 turnouts is a ladder built with turnouts that are 3 inches shorter in length than a ladder built with Atlas #6 turnouts.
richhotrainA ladder built out of Peco #6 turnouts is a ladder built with turnouts that are 3 inches shorter in length than a ladder built with Atlas #6 turnouts. Rich
And that 3" difference is the difference between success and failure on a small ISL or yard switching layout- both can be built on a 1 foot wide board.
Its only good common sense to go with the Peco #6 instead of the Atlas #4.
Years ago I was traumatised when I tried to run my Athearn SD45 through #4 turnouts and it didn't like them much.
My philosophy since then has been rather than trying to negotiate the maze of what #4 turnouts might work and which might not for my long engines and long cars in a yard, I simply used #6 and then I don't have to worry. They work and they don't take up that much more space.
I often see people trying to squeeze long trains around tight curves or tight turnouts. I guess if you like a challege, have at it. But my lesson in train life has been to be a little more generous in your track design and you will be happier for it later on. This is the lesson I have gotten from readying hundreds of layout articles in the 80's and 90's and being a student of John Armstrong.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761Years ago I was traumatised when I tried to run my Athearn SD45 through #4 turnouts and it didn't like them much.
Depends on the sharpness of the diverging route.
The BB SD45 go around a 18" curve-not a pretty sight nor a good idea and will go through a Atlas C100 Custom line #4 but,has a hard time on a Model Power #4- those looks like a Atlas snap switch wanna be...
Alright, one more question. I'm operating using DC, with just a run-of-the-mill power pack you'd get, for example, with a train set. What do I need to know regarding wiring of insulfrog and electrofrog turnouts? I also need to install some of these in my "loop" of track – not just in my stub-end freight yard.
RR Telg,
My suggestion to you would be to come up with a track plan and post that along with your questions. Everyone will ask if you can anyway. Extremely helpful to anyone trying to give you advice, sounds like you are going to have a reverse loop and that would be easier to explain with a plan. Might even be better to start a new thread on it. We just spent two pages on #4 turnouts,some people may not know,there is a new subject with questions.
RR Telg Alright, one more question. I'm operating using DC, with just a run-of-the-mill power pack you'd get, for example, with a train set. What do I need to know regarding wiring of insulfrog and electrofrog turnouts? I also need to install some of these in my "loop" of track – not just in my stub-end freight yard.
RR Telg, when you say "loop of track", are you talking about a continuous mainline like an oval, or do you have a reverse loop where the track folds back onto itself?
The difference between the Insulfrog and the Electrofrog is the frog, powered with Electo, unpowered with Insul. Either way, these turnouts are power routing, so it all depends upon your track configuration.
zstripe RR Telg, My suggestion to you would be to come up with a track plan and post that along with your questions.
My suggestion to you would be to come up with a track plan and post that along with your questions.
Ideally I'd do that, but it's finals time here in law school, so I'm kinda crunched for time. Still, I could describe in words what I'm trying to do, but I'm not sure I'd describe it corectly or well enough so that we could have a discussion. I think I'll just have to take your advice and start a new thread once I can post a picture.
If you are going to add a reverse loop to your DC layout, then you are going to need some special wiring, gap some rails to isolate the loop, and install a DPDT switch. Here is a link to some basic information in that regard.
http://modeltrains.about.com/od/track/ss/Reverse-Loops_2.htm
The Insulfrog would sure be a lot easier to work with in this situation than the Electrofrog.
Rich,A option would be a Atlas Controller(0220) since its easy to wire.You can cut gaps or use the plastic insulating rail joiners.
http://shop.atlasrr.com/p-55-controller.aspx
richhotrain If you are going to add a reverse loop to your DC layout, then you are going to need some special wiring, gap some rails to isolate the loop, and install a DPDT switch. Here is a link to some basic information in that regard. http://modeltrains.about.com/od/track/ss/Reverse-Loops_2.htm The Insulfrog would sure be a lot easier to work with in this situation than the Electrofrog. Rich
Thanks for posting that link. After poking around there, I think I should be alright. I'm not talking about building a reverse loop. I know it's kinda hard to describe this without a picture, but the line I want to build will essentially be the same as building a siding that can be entered from either end (not a stub-end siding).
Those don't cause electrical polarity issues that require fancy wiring, right?
If you aren't including a reverse loop, and the polarities of the rails remain in phase throughout the layout, then no special wiring, or rail gapping, is required. In that case, it would be easier to use Peco Insulfrog turnouts. JUst be sure to add feeder wires on all three ends of every turnout.