Hello fellow MR's,
I am in the process of building my latest layout, hopefully this summer. Let me give you some background on the building it will be housed in. I am finishing up revamping an old mobile home which I basiclly gutted. The room I get (the better half gets 2/3rds) is 13 1/2' X 21 1/2". Being in northern Minnesota we get extreme temp swings, from 100 above to -60 below zero. Humidity can vary also, usually down as low as 25% in the winter. Since this building will be a stand alone and these swings will affect the layout I am thinking of using metal studs for the benchwork and foam for the top. Do you think this will minimize or eliminate the expansion and contraction problem associated with such conditions? How about sound transmission, 2"+ as needed. True, it is not going to be as extreme all the time and it will have A/C installed and a dehumidifer if needed. It goes without saying heat for 6 to 8 months is important and a new furnace will be installed.
Any opinions from you ladies or gentlemsn would be appreciated.
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Thanks, Bing
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Normally, the expansion/contraction issues are a result of changes in humidity causing the wood to expand/contract. By using the metal studs for the benchwork and foam, I would imagine it would pretty much eliminate the problem. I'd use something that remains flexible (silicone caulk) to attach the foam to the benchwork. I would imagine the expansion/contraction of the metal would be more than the foam.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I'm not clear on the climate inside the building. Are you planning to run the A/C or heat as needed to keep the room liveable? or are you planning to allow the inside to vary from 100 to -60 when you're not there? I would be concerned about leaving engines, power packs, etc. exposed to those extreme temperatures. The 100 may be okay, but -60 is way outside my experience.
Good luck
Paul
No, I sure don't expect the temp to make such wild swings inside but outside is a different story. It sure affects our indoor temp. I am going to put in a new furnace before the temps start back down. For the warmer times I have two A/C units, one for the larger part of the trailer and a smaller one for the layout room. I'm thinking of keeping it about 65 to 70 when we're out there and about 45 to 50 when we aren't. That's why I want a stable platform under the layout. Do you think I will be subjecting things to excessive temp swings at these settings?
Of course there are the power outages that happen once or twice a winter, just to cool us down some. lol
Hi Bing
I happen to LIVE in a trailer much like you describe. I built my layout out of wood {open grid} with foam glued on top. I have no such issues.
Now, that said, I DO have a disclaimer:
Obviously we DO keep it warmer than 45-50* during the winter {and in summer we use two window A/C to cool down}. We also run a dehumidifer during the 8 warmer months of the year, and a humidifier during the coldest 4. We strive to keep around 67* for heat{daytime-at night it drops to 65*automatically} and 70-72* for A/c {prefer again the 67* mark}. And a humidity level of 55-65%-the recommended "comfort zone". Our walls are 6" thick and insulated as is the floor and ceiling.
So, I think you are basically on target. I don't think you will have much problem at the temps you plan to maintain. If you have doubts you can keep it at 50* winter and oh, say, 75* summer, then I would build it out the way you describe, BUT you will also have to leave a few gaps here and there along your track lines for expansion and contraction of RAILS ON the layout. The layout's bench is kinda secondary to flawless trackwork! {that is not to say flawless trackwork shoud be built on crappy layout benches.}
Oh...and another thing you MIGHT want to look into...Our trailer has everything on 2 circuits for lights and plugs. We had a dedicated outlet installed for the A/c {one 5500 BTU unit and one 12000 BTU} so as not to draw down the available power as it always dimmed the light kicking on and running. WE are stretched to max on the plugs/lights now as there is only one circuit for all outlets on one long side of the trailer and one for the other long wall of the trailer. The ones in the middling walls are split between the two. Now I only run 2-3 DCC trains,but if you want to run a lot of electrical accesories and trains and the Other Half is running a lot in her "half", and with 2 A/cs, you MIGHT have a problem. SO you might want to look into that.
Other than that, good luck, and enjoy the hobby YOUR way!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
galaxy Hi Bing So, I think you are basically on target. I don't think you will have much problem at the temps you plan to maintain. If you have doubts you can keep it at 50* winter and oh, say, 75* summer, then I would build it out the way you describe, BUT you will also have to leave a few gaps here and there along your track lines for expansion and contraction of RAILS ON the layout.
So, I think you are basically on target. I don't think you will have much problem at the temps you plan to maintain. If you have doubts you can keep it at 50* winter and oh, say, 75* summer, then I would build it out the way you describe, BUT you will also have to leave a few gaps here and there along your track lines for expansion and contraction of RAILS ON the layout.
And I would add a caveat to Bing's advice. While I agree with him on cutting gaps in the rails to allow for rail expansion/contraction, how wide you make the gaps will depend on when you lay the track. If you lay the track in the summer, make the gaps very narrow, for the rails will be at their longest. If you cut them 1/32" in the summer, they'll open up in the winter. And, the opposite is true if you lay the track in the winter. If you make the gaps the same width in the winter, they may actually close up and cause track warping in the summer. My best advice would be to install climate control in your trailer; heat, A/C and dehumidifier(s). The more you control the climate, the fewer headaches you will have.
Not out of personal experience but it might be worth considering that while the metal studs would not contract or expand as much as wood would, they are still going to be attached to something which might. At least some trailers have substantial plywood content.
One possibility which one sees in some apartment layouts, and not because of concern about temperature and humidity, is to use good sturdy shelf supports on the walls and have the layout for the most part be shelving. Your 2" or whatever foam could be the primary shelf with perhaps a fairly light plywood or masonite framing more or less along for the ride to protect the edges of the foam.
My basement has considerable humidity swings from season to season, even with an April Aire humidifier in the winter. I have had zero problems with my wood benchwork (is that where the expression 'knock wood' comes from?) but I was able to take a precaution that not all modelers are in a position to do: I bought nearly all the lumber I needed all at once, and stored it until needed. Thus for the most part the lumber in my benchwork had anywhere from one to five seasons to get accustomed to the twice a year changes before it was used for benchwork. It seems to me that that has helped. Also I use the David Barrow "domino" approach so each 2' x 4' segment is actually a separate item, with its own legs, and then bolted together. There might be a built in ability to absorb climate based changes in that system. (And that system, as its critics are fond of pointing out is by any mechanical basis overbuilt with more legs, more screws, more cross bracing than one might ordinarily use per 4 linear foot of benchwork.)
Dave Nelson
i find that humidity is a much bigger issue than temperature.
charlie
Medina1128 And I would add a caveat to Bing's advice.... My best advice would be to install climate control in your trailer; heat, A/C and dehumidifier(s). The more you control the climate, the fewer headaches you will have.
And I would add a caveat to Bing's advice.... My best advice would be to install climate control in your trailer; heat, A/C and dehumidifier(s). The more you control the climate, the fewer headaches you will have.
We already have THAT issue pretty much covered:
Uh, forgive me, but not only do I mention what we do to keep such a building humming along smoothly in my answer {which is suggestions for them to follow} , but Bing himself says:
"I am going to put in a new furnace before the temps start back down. For the warmer times I have two A/C units, one for the larger part of the trailer and a smaller one for the layout room. I'm thinking of keeping it about 65 to 70 when we're out there and about 45 to 50 when we aren't. "
I believe that you are taking a risk setting your low temp at 45-50. I recommend 55-60. The risk is twofold: the power outages that apparently can be expected, and the condensation damage that can affect almost all your building materials and finishes if the temp is as low as 45-50 for extended periods.
Dante
dante I believe that you are taking a risk setting your low temp at 45-50. I recommend 55-60. The risk is twofold: the power outages that apparently can be expected, and the condensation damage that can affect almost all your building materials and finishes if the temp is as low as 45-50 for extended periods. Dante
Many thermostats will not even register at temps of under 50-55* . SO he will have to set it there at least for a "bottom" temp. Unless they keep it that low for extended periods, adn even then, I am not sure they will have a Problem, as read on:
When I was a teen durning the Oil Embargo in the 70's, we had oil for heating the house. I was the FIRST one up in the morning. I was ALLOWED to turn the temperature UP to 57*!. My father, second up would raise it to 60*, then to 65* when my mother and brother got up, before setting it to back to 62* for the day! If you claimed you were cold, Mother had several ways you could get warm: put on an extra sweater, put on an extra sweatshirt, Put on your house robe over your clothes, put on an afaghan, OR put on an extra quilt!!!
We never had moisture problems then, and Bing and Kathy probably should only run a humidifier while they are there and the heat is running at more "normal" temps.
At one point in my life, While I lived on welfare awaiting disability approval thorugh the courts {which I had many years of working and paying taxes for that, my hour of need}, I kept the theromostat at the lowest I could {52*} until I got notice of Home Energy Assistance Program {HEAP} award money, as I had to pay each time the propane was filled. I then knew how high I could set the thermostat, but I still kept it relatively cool around 62* for a high for the day. This went on for 3 winters. Again, neither I nor the bulding was affected.
I had no choice but to opt for Mother's method of getting warm!
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Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
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I've been building with steel studs in a non-climate-controlled garage in the Dessicated Desert - temps from 20 to 120+, but (usually) single-digit humidity except immediately after a rain. Using the studs in classic Westcott L-girder configuration. No table top - the terrain I'm modeling resembles the depths of the Grand Canyon in contour - but thin cookie-cut plywood on top of steel stud risers. Any tendency of the plywood to deviate is beaten into submission with steel angle iron, screwed upward into the bottom of the ply.
On top of the plywood I have fan-fold underlayment, foam about 9mm thick sculpted into roadbed with a knife and secured to the wood with latex caulk.. Then a card stock track template as wide as the ties, followed by flex or raw rail spiked to wood ties (and the cardstock, and the foam, through two layers of latex caulk.) The cardstock is sealed with paint before installation. The top layers of caulk (under the ties and under the cardstock) are grey to hide holidays in the ballast.
Some of my trackwork has been operational for five years plus with no problems to date. The sandwich of materials is very quiet, mostly, I think, because of the caulk. It also holds spikes surprisingly well. I DO leave wide rail gaps every 3 feet when laying rail in the cooler months. In July and August, 2 to 4 PM, I just butt the rail ends together...
Thanks to a gas water heater, I can't close the outside vents - nor can I afford to air condition all of North Las Vegas. I DO use a spot heater-blower when working from mid-November to mid-March, but only when I'm present and working. It's plugged into a switched outlet, so it's off when the lights go out. Thanks to the low humidity, an ordinary fan is a lot of help when the temp goes to overheat.
Hope this is helpful.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in a Clark County, NV, garage)