alco_fan Amazing that there are people who want to be elitist even about benchwork. Crazy. The manufactured stuff is fine, if that is what you want.
Amazing that there are people who want to be elitist even about benchwork. Crazy.
The manufactured stuff is fine, if that is what you want.
Elitest? Seems more to me like the guy I first responed to is the elitist by implying that even those among us with woodworking skills could not build benchwork as good as his store bought benchwork.
And the last resort of those who cannot discuss the merits of an issue is to call names and make comments about what people can and can't aford - even if they say those things about the wrong person - and obviously with no real knowledge of what I or anyone else can aford.
I don't care who chooses to use premade benchwork, but I assure you I can build benchwork as nice or better than anything you can buy.
Seems to me there is more "elitist" posturing on here from those who buy everything ready made than from those who build stuff.
And to those of you who think no one should respond to anything within a thread other than the OP question, it is called CONVERSATION. Each new comment will always draws reaction and response.
Sheldon
PRR1 I have found where some people have used Siever's benchwork. Has anyone used Mianne or Benchridge? I know that many of you prefer your own handiwork, and I do have the tools, but my problem is time. I am afraid that it would take me too long to get that part built, and then I would get discouraged. I am getting up in years.
I have found where some people have used Siever's benchwork. Has anyone used Mianne or Benchridge? I know that many of you prefer your own handiwork, and I do have the tools, but my problem is time. I am afraid that it would take me too long to get that part built, and then I would get discouraged. I am getting up in years.
Too bad your first post got sidetracked a bit, but that happens here sometimes. Don't get discouraged.
I believe it started with the comment that had an embedded criticism of "home made" benchwork not living up to cabinet grade standards and also implying accepting it was an inferior choice, but perhaps the writer didn't mean to imply that and expressed their comment poorly.
What might help is to know exactly what a person gets when they order the Mianne, Sievers, or Benchridge product? I tend to weigh alternatives when spendiing money, so having comments based upon fact rather than just an opinion might be helpful.
Do the kit makers used ripped plywood or pine boards as the major component? Are they screwed or stapled? Can you get metal studs or even some sturdy plastic components that resist warping? Do they use enough joists relative to the length of a section? Why are they not sturdy without a plywood top? (My limited experience in woodworking tells me that just about any benchwork becomes prone to some racking if not topped or laterally supported, but down right unsturdy seems problematic to me).
Why wouldn't liquid nails adhesive and foam work for topping? I wonder if it has to do with not using enough joists to prevent sagging with the wider benchwork products, or if it is just a general disclaimer standard with all orders.
- Douglas
Sheldon,
Obviously your reading comprehension skills are not up to par. I never said people with woodworking skills couldn't build something comparable to ready made benchwork. I specifically singled out people that are highly skilled and then referred to the majority of what I've seen and compared that to the Mianne. If you have better woodworking skills than the guy at Mianne that does this and cabinets for a living every day, then good for you. Go back and read what I wrote again, because you missed the whole point.
I couldn't possibly disagree more with your final paragraph. You certainly have a right to your own opinion. You don't have the right to hijack someone's thread to start a flame war. If you want to have a discussion about the merits of commercial vs home built benchwork, by all means go ahead. Just go do it somewhere else. I'd like to hear more informed people respond to the topic that started this thread.
Why does it annoy you so much if I don't mind spending the money to buy benchwork? I've never made fun of anyone that did their own. That is a personal choice. I have reasons why I made the choice I did and I'm sure others have their own personal reasons to make the choices they do. Be a grown up and deal with it in a mature way. For example, what was the purpose of making a smart aleck comment like this:
"What is the point of buying some high priced bench work kit if it is still so flimsy that it requirs a plywood top?"
Is a statement like that supposed to make me feel bad about my choice. It doesn't, because I know what the real situation is. You on the other hand simply displayed your ignorance and your desire to be a smart you-know-what.
Keith
Right on! Couldn't agree more. Thanks….
K. Holt "And for the person who said you need to put plywood over prefab benchwork, you don't. Extruded foam panels work just fine. Baltic birch plywood is really overkill for under a layout. If you're going to use plywood, ordinary construction grade stuff is just fine." CTValleyRR, I have no intention to pick a fight, but this comment does a disservice to other hobbyists who are considering Mianne benchwork for a future layout. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The manufacturer of Mianne benchwork makes it clear you need a plywood top, and anyone who has seen this benchwork would quickly realize that it requires additional lateral stability that foam would simply not provide. Clearly you have not seen the benchwork that you appear to claim expertise about. You shouldn't so confidently offer advice as if it is based on fact or knowledge when neither is true. You could cause someone to make a faulty purchase with the wrong expectations. Keith
"And for the person who said you need to put plywood over prefab benchwork, you don't. Extruded foam panels work just fine. Baltic birch plywood is really overkill for under a layout. If you're going to use plywood, ordinary construction grade stuff is just fine."
CTValleyRR,
I have no intention to pick a fight, but this comment does a disservice to other hobbyists who are considering Mianne benchwork for a future layout. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The manufacturer of Mianne benchwork makes it clear you need a plywood top, and anyone who has seen this benchwork would quickly realize that it requires additional lateral stability that foam would simply not provide. Clearly you have not seen the benchwork that you appear to claim expertise about. You shouldn't so confidently offer advice as if it is based on fact or knowledge when neither is true. You could cause someone to make a faulty purchase with the wrong expectations.
Keith,
I stand by my statement, I said that a plywood top is not necessary. What I did NOT say, although you apparently read it, is that I guarantee that if you use an extruded foam panel you wouldn't need any additional bracing. The rest of your vitriol doesn't merit a reply, so I won't.
Suffice it to say I have a great deal of experience in building benchwork and other things out of wood. You, personally, may not believe that it is not necessary to add a plywood top to the benchwork (it may surprise you to learn that I know the folks at Mienne talk about using 1/2" lauan plywood on top of your layout). Give me half an hour, a power miter saw, a drill / driver, some scraps of lumber or plywood, and some carriage bolts and wing nuts, and I'll make your benchwork so sturdy you can put your 500 pound gun safe on top of it.
My intent, as always, is to encourage people to think outside their comfort zone, try something beyond what they've tried before. If this somehow makes the the scourge of the forums, then we need more scourges and fewer drones.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
K. Holt Here's a couple of questions for all of you who like to berate anyone that uses "ready made" benchwork: Do you use ready-made commercial flextrack or do you always lay your own? Do you use ready-made trees or do you always make your own and glue all the foliage yourself? Do you scratch build all of your buildings or do you sometimes use kits? I could go on and on with questions like these. Different people choose to spend their time in this hobby on different aspects of it, while spending some money to save time on others. Some people I guess have enough free time to do everything themselves from scratch. Good for you. There is nothing wrong with any of this, and however someone wants to pursue this hobby is just fine. You guys should be mature enough to accept that. Why is it so hard for you guys to accept that some people just like to buy their benchwork and get on with other aspects of model railroading that interest them more? I mean seriously guys, this is a really immature discussion that keeps coming up on this forum. Grow up. If you can't help the OP with his question stay off the thread and let people that can help answer his question speak without heckling. Keith
Here's a couple of questions for all of you who like to berate anyone that uses "ready made" benchwork:
Do you use ready-made commercial flextrack or do you always lay your own?
Do you use ready-made trees or do you always make your own and glue all the foliage yourself?
Do you scratch build all of your buildings or do you sometimes use kits?
I could go on and on with questions like these. Different people choose to spend their time in this hobby on different aspects of it, while spending some money to save time on others. Some people I guess have enough free time to do everything themselves from scratch. Good for you. There is nothing wrong with any of this, and however someone wants to pursue this hobby is just fine. You guys should be mature enough to accept that.
Why is it so hard for you guys to accept that some people just like to buy their benchwork and get on with other aspects of model railroading that interest them more? I mean seriously guys, this is a really immature discussion that keeps coming up on this forum. Grow up. If you can't help the OP with his question stay off the thread and let people that can help answer his question speak without heckling.
Keith, going back to your first post, exactly how many layouts have you seen with all this "inferior homemade benchwork"?
You started this with your comments about how few, if any, of us could build benchwork as good as your store bought benchwork.
How long have you been in this hobby?, how many layouts have you built? How many layouts have you visited?
Even thought I would likely never use it, I don't have anytthing against store bought benchwork, but I don't need you telling me it's better than what I can build.
I've looked at all those products, not one of them would work for any of the layouts I have been involved in building in the last 40 years.
My last layout was a complex, multi level, double deck, no helix, 24' x 40' affair with the upper deck suspended from the garrett walls of my garage attic train room - never seen anything like that in a benchwork catalog.
My next layout will be a series of custom modules for that same 24' x40' space to allow it to move with me when we make our retirement move and to allow it to expand into a likely larger space. These will be built to standards well above common benchwork standards to allow them to be strong, light weight and movable with out damage.
I mastered hand layed track in 1975 at 18 years old - I choose to use flex track now as I don't really want to hand lay 800 feet of track.
Maybe it is you, not I, who need to justify your choices with your negative comments about " inferior homemade benchwork".
Please note that this is the op's very first post.
I hope it isn't his last.
PPR, don't give up the best is ahead of you.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Where did I criticize home made benchwork and say it was inferior? why do you put words in my mouth? I said the Mianne was better quality than most of what I see out there, and therefore I felt that the relatively higher cost was justified (i.e., their product isn't overpriced).
You have managed to read a whole lot into this simple factual statement that was never said or implied. I apologize if it somehow came across the wrong way, but I have read what I wrote reveal times and I don't see where you get all these things.
K. Holt Sheldon, Obviously your reading comprehension skills are not up to par. I never said people with woodworking skills couldn't build something comparable to ready made benchwork. I specifically singled out people that are highly skilled and then referred to the majority of what I've seen and compared that to the Mianne. If you have better woodworking skills than the guy at Mianne that does this and cabinets for a living every day, then good for you. Go back and read what I wrote again, because you missed the whole point. Keith
This is a family-oriented board and that's not a very nice tone of conversation. Disagree with Sheldon all you want, but please be nicer about it.
Thanks,
John
K. Holt Where did I criticize home made benchwork and say it was inferior? why do you put words in my mouth? I said the Mianne was better quality than most of what I see out there, and therefore I felt that the relatively higher cost was justified (i.e., their product isn't overpriced). You have managed to read a whole lot into this simple factual statement that was never said or implied. I apologize if it somehow came across the wrong way, but I have read what I wrote reveal times and I don't see where you get all these things.
I never said anything about the pricing of Mianne or any other commercial benchwork product, and never sited cost as a reason to build your own - YOU implied all that into my statements.
I would suggest that your experiances regarding "homemade" benchwork may be limited as I have seen more good benchwork than bad in my 40 years in this hobby - and I am a professional woodworker, restoration carpenter, residential designer and historic restoration consultant.
Now days, when I build benchwork, cost is no object, I use premium poplar lumber and when I need plywood I use furniture grade birtch plywood - because both provide superior workablity and dimensional stablity.
And yes, from where I sit, the whole tone of your first post was that few if any of us could build benchwork as good as Mianne. I too aplogize if that is a miss read of your message. Maybe an explaination of why you chose Mianne would have been a more positive approach rather than commenting on all the "poor examples" of home made you have seen.
Fact remains, none of those products would meet my needs, regardless of cost or ease of use.
Doughless PRR1: I have found where some people have used Siever's benchwork. Has anyone used Mianne or Benchridge? I know that many of you prefer your own handiwork, and I do have the tools, but my problem is time. I am afraid that it would take me too long to get that part built, and then I would get discouraged. I am getting up in years. Too bad your first post got sidetracked a bit, but that happens here sometimes. Don't get discouraged. I believe it started with the comment that had an embedded criticism of "home made" benchwork not living up to cabinet grade standards and also implying accepting it was an inferior choice, but perhaps the writer didn't mean to imply that and expressed their comment poorly. What might help is to know exactly what a person gets when they order the Mianne, Sievers, or Benchridge product? I tend to weigh alternatives when spendiing money, so having comments based upon fact rather than just an opinion might be helpful. Do the kit makers used ripped plywood or pine boards as the major component? Are they screwed or stapled? Can you get metal studs or even some sturdy plastic components that resist warping? Do they use enough joists relative to the length of a section? Why are they not sturdy without a plywood top? (My limited experience in woodworking tells me that just about any benchwork becomes prone to some racking if not topped or laterally supported, but down right unsturdy seems problematic to me). Why wouldn't liquid nails adhesive and foam work for topping? I wonder if it has to do with not using enough joists to prevent sagging with the wider benchwork products, or if it is just a general disclaimer standard with all orders.
PRR1: I have found where some people have used Siever's benchwork. Has anyone used Mianne or Benchridge? I know that many of you prefer your own handiwork, and I do have the tools, but my problem is time. I am afraid that it would take me too long to get that part built, and then I would get discouraged. I am getting up in years.
This is a cut and paste from Siever's website:http://www.sieversbenchwork.com/specifications.html
"All wooden parts made of unfinished 3/4" x 3 1/2" No. 2 pine lumber, accurately cut and sanded. Matching countersunk holes for No. 10 Flat-Head Woodscrews or 1/4" Carriage Bolts are drilled on the centerline of the Side Rails and Angle sides. Cross Braces have pilot holes for screws, as well as 3/4" holes for wire or cable support. All screws, bolts, nuts and washers furnished, including two longer Carriage Bolts for connecting one Section to another Section, if desired."
I have found Siever's benchwork to be very stable, and when secured to a wall with lag bolts on 2x4's one can walk on the finished product. Like I've mentioned before, this product has been used on two layouts and I've found zero problems with either the kit or the company itself---they are very friendly, have excellent communication skills and are easy to work with.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
K. Holt I know there are cabinet makers and professional woodworkers amongst us, but frankly, I have never seen "home made" benchwork that comes close in overall quality and appearance to the Mianne product. I think you get what you pay for in this case. Keith
I know there are cabinet makers and professional woodworkers amongst us, but frankly, I have never seen "home made" benchwork that comes close in overall quality and appearance to the Mianne product. I think you get what you pay for in this case.
"never" is a strong word - and "never seen "home made" benchwork that comes close........." - is a very strong statement, unless I simply discount your level of experiance and the number and quality of layouts you have seen.
If the above statement is true, I suggest you go on some layout tours in this part of the country.
Why all the negativity and obnoxious comments over something as mundane as benchwork, particularly when the OP is brand new to this forum? I'm sure he isn't impressed with the level of discourse here, I know I'm not and I've been around for a few years.
It doesn't hurt to welcome a newcomer and be a little gracious in your comments, we're here to learn and get new ideas not to see who can manufacture the cutest pejorative terms.
Goodness gracious, this is a posting about benchwork....................
PRR1, I hope you've gotten some answer in this that helps. I looked seriously as purchasing bench work (some of use are aware that there are other considerations to this equation than skills, tools, and desire) for my current layout, I only decided against it in the end as I couldn't guarantee I'd see delivery prior to my pack out.
I've seen the Mianne at trainshows, and as a result, I was looking more at the Seivers products, for my purposes the Sievers looked like it would handle repeated teardown (not regular, but repeated) a little better than the Mianne.
I've been stunned at the responses to your question however. Even more so that one of the few people with actual experience with a bench work manufacturer, was chastised while the rest of the participants, some of whom have chimed in with replies that have little to do with your question, were not. Very interesting.
I'd suggest that someone start a home made bench work topic, and than post up clear pictures of their work. Telling everyone how great a job you've done, without any photographic evidence, just isn't that impressive, and doesn't make you look that much more authoritative on the subject. I look to Selector as great example in his layout building thread. Now that's actually useful information.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
I do not foresee a good end to this thread. I'm going to lock it.
If you all want to continue to discuss the subject, that's fine by me, but do it in a new thread please.