ham99 wrote:I never use plaster for scenery. It is much easier, cheaper, and cleaner to use extruded foam. One $18 sheet purchased several years ago was more than enough to build all the mountains on my 10'x11' around-the-wall layout. The mountains are hollow and lift off the layout for access to tunnel tracks. I use Sculptamold over the foam to carve rock formations. It makes a very realistic scenery that is very light and easy to move. Another plus to this scenery is that soaking it with detergent/water loosens it and makes it easy to remove when I change my mind about something.
$18 for a sheet of foam?
I wish it was that cheep here! I was at a home improvement place yesterday, and looked at the price of foam and 2 inch 4x8 sheet of polystyrene was $28 and 1 inch urathaine foam was only a little less!
I've tried ALL of the methods posted above. I like the ease in carving foam when modeling sheer cliffs, covered with a thin layer of plaster. For rolling hills and mountains, I've used shop towels (the blue ones), dryer sheets, and regular paper towels dipped in plaster. My favorite method is to cut paster cloth into strips and lay in place on the layout. I then spray the strips with wet water. A little smoothing into place, and about the only mess is a little plaster on my fingers. I've found that when you dip the plaster cloth in water, it turns into slime, wanting to fold over on itself. It's easier to push a chain. Once the plaster cloth sets up, you can either brush on a thin layer of plaster over it, or rewet the plaster and sift dry plaster over it. It's a great way to give your plaster texture.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I'm building a new mountain now. If interested, click this page ===> then on the tab 'photo' and watch a slide show of 12 pics...
http://home.mchsi.com/~ironmaster1963/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html
...just one of many ways to build mountains and cliffs...
Cederstrand wrote: Thanks for the info guys. Have over 100lbs of the stuff left, so providing it "keeps" until I am ready, should provide a decent start. Still wondering if sheetrock mud would work better of wire mesh or foam? Those are my prefered choices because I have both of those on hand as well. Another question, would any old fabric sheets work? You can probably tell I will be trying to keep the expenses down and use everything I already have. Rob
Thanks for the info guys. Have over 100lbs of the stuff left, so providing it "keeps" until I am ready, should provide a decent start. Still wondering if sheetrock mud would work better of wire mesh or foam? Those are my prefered choices because I have both of those on hand as well.
Another question, would any old fabric sheets work? You can probably tell I will be trying to keep the expenses down and use everything I already have.
Rob
I used drywall mud "full strength" (undiluted) over fiberglass window screen. To support the screen I "roughed in" my hill with blocks of white beadboard foam blocks (Salvaged packing material from RTA bookcases and a treadmill). I applied it by hand and smoothed the contours.
Having tried all the listed methods, except the WS plaster stuff [wayyy too expensive for what you get], I can state without reservation that drywall mud works best FOR ME.
The stacked foam works great also, and when applied over said stacked foam, drywall mud makes superb mountains\hills. Some methods won't work for some people, so you can't say ''Do this and ONLY this'', you have to experiment and see what you like and what works best for you.
Drywall mud is NOT plaster, its gypsum, and when washed down the drain [something I personally wouldn't do] it won't harden and block the drain, it just dissolves. It does crack when applied too thickly but a skim coat fixes that right up. As for it loosing its texture when you paint it, nope, only if you paint it while its still wet and with water based paint, let it dry...say, a week for thick applications,2 to 3 days for thinner coats, and you can paint it with whatever you want, BUT, painting it isn't even nessecary, mix some latex paint in it when you're stirring it and you won't need to paint, or, use the WS method like I do.....a spray bottle, some dye [ I use RIT brand and mix my own colors] and a good imagination.
When I apply the mud I sculpt textures into it like cracks, rock faces, layered rocks and crevices, on areas I want to be smoothe, I use a damp sponge to texture it when it's almost set up, like say, 2 hrs after I put it on.
Let the mud dry, mix the dye to the color you want, browns, reds, grays and tans are good for rocks, then start lightly spraying them onto the mud......they dribble down and bring out even the most minute details and textures, ....blending the colors as you go to make it look like weathered exposed rock.......you continue until you've achieved the desired effects and then landscape with grass, shrubs, trees or whatever you want to use.. The dyes can be mixed to whatever color you want and you can keep them in sealed containers indefinitely.
There are no wrong ways to do landscaping and mountain\hill building, only different ways. If you achieve your goal and you like how it looks then you did it right.
Check out the WS landscaping area on their website and you'll find some useful info.
LD357 wrote: Drywall mud is NOT plaster, its gypsum,
Drywall mud is NOT plaster, its gypsum,
Excuse me, but this is the SECOND time in this thread someone has 'informed' us that drywall mud is not plaster. According to dictionary.com and the US Gypsum company at plaster.com, you guys are sadly and totally mistaken.
plas·ter plas-ter, plah-ster] Pronunciation –noun
As for the rest of your opinions, you are parroting the FOAMers bible. As I have said before, in this thread, a lot of people think that stacked foam looks like mountains, when all too often it looks exactly like what it is, stacked foam. IF you put enough drywall mud on that foam to make it look like a mountain, you run the risk of having eliminated the only advantage of foam; it is now way too heavy.
IF one wants to build really authentic mountains, IMHO, the easiest way is with screen wire and plaster (drywall mud is plaster too) or hot glued cardboard strips into a mesh and covered with plaster cloth or paper. (Look Jim Kelly's demonstration in VOL 1 of the "Dream Plan Build " DVD.)
Using foam to build authentic and substantial mountains with minimal plaster takes considerably more skill, time and unbelievable mess. Furthermore, if you have to purchase the foam from HD/Lowes, it is WAY more expensive than screen wire or cardboard strips, which was your reason for avoiding that superb WS plaster cloth product.
And put drywall mud down the sink at your own risk. Joe Daddy does his best to keep any plaster out of his sink trap and recommends you do the same.
my 2 cents worth nothing more
Joe
Slow Down, and Take A Breath.
No offence intended, but, Joint Compound ( AKA Dry Wall Mud ), is not a plaster of any type ( either lime or gypsom). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_compound
Modern joint compound is a mix of water, finely ground limestone, a polymer, and a magnesium aluminium phyllosilicate ( otherwise known as Palygorskite, a naturaly occuring mineral ) and in the case of light weight joint compound it also has expanded perlite in the mix.
That is not to say plasters ( lime or gypsom ) have not been used as joint coumpound. OTOH, normal gypsom, that has not been fired, to drive out the water ( to make plaster of paris ) Does Not Harden When It Get's Wet, and so it can be used as a filler to make joint compound, much like limestone.
Only when gypsom has been fired and the water driven off, or limestone is fired to drive off the CO2, do they make plasters, That Will Harden When They Get Wet.
Lightweight Spackling Compound will be difficult to get to stick to smooth bare foam.
We use rough carved foam, then two layers of plaster cloth, then a thin layer of spackling compound. All mountains over track (currently 5 seperate sections) lift off, and are very light, even including paint and trees.
It's probably not the least expensive method, but I did a paper mache layout when I was 14 and wouldn't touch that stuff again with a ten foot pole. If you consider the cost of the carpet under the layout, this may be the least expensive method available to us. Because all the foam we used on phase 1 was scrap, leftover from other projects, there was less expense than usual.
I'm very careful in how I use and apply the spackling compound. We buy 1 gallon buckets ($13), open the near or now empty 1 quart bucket first, then the gallon, use a putty knife to pack the quart full, and close the gallon bucket first, to keep it from drying out as long as possible. When applying spackle to the layout, I use the putty knife to pack a small styrofoam coffee cup half to three quarters full from the quart (working) bucket.
To make smooth rolling surfaces, thumb sized gobs of spackle are "smear pasted" onto the plaster cloth, then tamped with clean dry fingers to flatten them, and then brushed with a 1" brush after dipping it into clean water, to give final smoothness. Care is necessary here, too much water will wash away the spackle.
To make rock walls, thumb sized gobs of spackle are smear-pasted onto steep plaster cloth, then tamped around the edges to fix them solidly to the cloth, again, with clean dry fingers, then edged and carved with a butter knife, usually from the top down. Finally, vertical cracks are cut with the tip of a bamboo skewer, and as many "sharpies" (little points of raised plaster that make it look like plaster and not rock) are tamped down. Rock layering schemes are planned out in advance, and created with a little extra spackle in the right places to fit the overall plan. I like slightly angled strata best.
Tools and empty spackle cups are scrape cleaned into the trash can, and the small remaining spackle keft on the tools is washed down the sink, with lots of water. We're on septic, no problems in two years.
Greg H. wrote:Slow Down, and Take A Breath.No offence intended, but, Joint Compound ( AKA Dry Wall Mud ), is not a plaster of any type ( either lime or gypsom). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_compound Modern joint compound is a mix of water, finely ground limestone, a polymer, and a magnesium aluminium phyllosilicate ( otherwise known as Palygorskite, a naturaly occuring mineral ) and in the case of light weight joint compound it also has expanded perlite in the mix.That is not to say plasters ( lime or gypsom ) have not been used as joint coumpound. OTOH, normal gypsom, that has not been fired, to drive out the water ( to make plaster of paris ) Does Not Harden When It Get's Wet, and so it can be used as a filler to make joint compound, much like limestone. Only when gypsom has been fired and the water driven off, or limestone is fired to drive off the CO2, do they make plasters, That Will Harden When They Get Wet.
Greg,
You are the one shouting, not me. Drywall mud is a plaster. It may indeed be a different type of plaster, but it is still a p l a s t e r. And I'll stick with the dictionary, Wikipedia is as reliable a source of information as a prarie dog is a watch dog.
And to the casual reader, I'll repeat, flush wet or dry plaster of any kind including drywall mud down your drain at your own risk. I always recommend and do every thing I can to avoid putting any kind of plaster down the drain.
joe-daddy wrote: Greg H. wrote: Slow Down, and Take A Breath.No offence intended, but, Joint Compound ( AKA Dry Wall Mud ), is not a plaster of any type ( either lime or gypsom). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_compound Modern joint compound is a mix of water, finely ground limestone, a polymer, and a magnesium aluminium phyllosilicate ( otherwise known as Palygorskite, a naturaly occuring mineral ) and in the case of light weight joint compound it also has expanded perlite in the mix.That is not to say plasters ( lime or gypsom ) have not been used as joint coumpound. OTOH, normal gypsom, that has not been fired, to drive out the water ( to make plaster of paris ) Does Not Harden When It Get's Wet, and so it can be used as a filler to make joint compound, much like limestone. Only when gypsom has been fired and the water driven off, or limestone is fired to drive off the CO2, do they make plasters, That Will Harden When They Get Wet. Greg,You are the one shouting, not me. Drywall mud is a plaster. It may indeed be a different type of plaster, but it is still a p l a s t e r. And I'll stick with the dictionary, Wikipedia is as reliable a source of information as a prarie dog is a watch dog.
Greg H. wrote: Slow Down, and Take A Breath.No offence intended, but, Joint Compound ( AKA Dry Wall Mud ), is not a plaster of any type ( either lime or gypsom). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_compound Modern joint compound is a mix of water, finely ground limestone, a polymer, and a magnesium aluminium phyllosilicate ( otherwise known as Palygorskite, a naturaly occuring mineral ) and in the case of light weight joint compound it also has expanded perlite in the mix.That is not to say plasters ( lime or gypsom ) have not been used as joint coumpound. OTOH, normal gypsom, that has not been fired, to drive out the water ( to make plaster of paris ) Does Not Harden When It Get's Wet, and so it can be used as a filler to make joint compound, much like limestone. Only when gypsom has been fired and the water driven off, or limestone is fired to drive off the CO2, do they make plasters, That Will Harden When They Get Wet.
Sorry, but, I'm afraid that I have to tell you this, but that the prarie dog you were refering to, just bit you where the sun don't shine - US Gypsom, agrees with the definetion of joint compound from Wiki. Take a look at the materials used on MSDS of 2 of their All Purpose Joint Compounds :
http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/Documents/MSDS/ShtrkAll-Purpose_Joint_Compound-MSDS_61-320-001.pdf
http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/Documents/MSDS/BdxAllPurposeJoint_Compound-MSDS_61-360-023.pdf
No Gypsum or Lime plaster anywhere in the products, but mixtures of minerals and a polymer ( of one sort or another ).
Now compare the two MSDS above with one for plaster:
http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/Documents/MSDS/ShtrkPlaster_of_Paris_61-200-003_MSDS.pdf
and one for patching plaster:
http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/Documents/MSDS/ShtrkPatching_Plaster_61-200-002_MSDS.pdf
Extreamly big differances.
Now you may be refering to joint compound in how it can be used - as a plaster, but that is how it can be used rather than what it contains - a big differance in the way it can and can not be disposed of.
One of the things about Joint Compound ( as opposed to plaster ), is the fact that it can sit underwater and still not get hard, hence the use of the techneque called " Topping off " where you actualy cover it with water, to keep it from drying out: http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infdrywall/infdrywallcompound.html
The differance between plaster and joint compound is the fact that plaster ( either lime or gypsum based ), relies on a chemical reaction due to the addition of water to get hard ( it cures ), where as joint compound relies on a chemical reaction from the removal off water ( it dries ) to get hard.
Again they are seperate things that work differently even if they can be used for simular things. In the presence of water, ( like in the trap of a sink drain ) joint compound doesn't normaly get hard, and can be flushed away. That doesn't mean it is the best way to dispose ofit ( especialy in large quanties of the stuff ), but, for cleaning hands and tools once in a while there is no reasion that it can't be done.
As For my shouting, I'm sorry if you think I am, but, I choose to use the Arial Black Font, as it is easier from me to read, for any given font size over the Arial or Times New Roman fonts.
Greg H. wrote:snip As For my shouting, I'm sorry if you think I am, but, I choose to use the Arial Black Font, as it is easier from me to read, for any given font size over the Arial or Times New Roman fonts.
snip
Greg H.
Yes, you are shouting, but that is OK, people shout when they are out of control.
I'll leave it at this. Greg H says flush dry wall mud down the sink, Joe Daddy says you should never flush drywall and any other plaster material down the sisk.
With due respect you either don't know what yous talking about or are decieding to be vindictive - THIS IS SHOUTING - this is not. At no time before this post, did I shout, and just because I showed you the the big differences between plaster and joint compound, there is no reasion to be making such statements about me and what I'm doing.
Further, please don't put words in my mouth.
I said that cleaning hands and tools of joint compound at the sink ok, but flushing large amounts is not - another big difference.
joe-daddy wrote: LD357 wrote: Drywall mud is NOT plaster, its gypsum, Excuse me, but this is the SECOND time in this thread someone has 'informed' us that drywall mud is not plaster. According to dictionary.com and the US Gypsum company at plaster.com, you guys are sadly and totally mistaken. plas·ter plas-ter, plah-ster] Pronunciation –noun 1.a composition, as of lime or gypsum, sand, water, and sometimes hair or other fiber, applied in a pasty form to walls, ceilings, etc., and allowed to harden and dry. 2.powdered gypsum. 3.plaster of Paris. 4.a solid or semisolid preparation spread upon cloth, plastic, or other material and applied to the body, esp. for some healing purpose. –verb (used with object) 5.to cover (walls, ceilings, etc.) with plaster. 6.to treat with gypsum or plaster of Paris.As for the rest of your opinions, you are parroting the FOAMers bible. As I have said before, in this thread, a lot of people think that stacked foam looks like mountains, when all too often it looks exactly like what it is, stacked foam. IF you put enough drywall mud on that foam to make it look like a mountain, you run the risk of having eliminated the only advantage of foam; it is now way too heavy. IF one wants to build really authentic mountains, IMHO, the easiest way is with screen wire and plaster (drywall mud is plaster too) or hot glued cardboard strips into a mesh and covered with plaster cloth or paper. (Look Jim Kelly's demonstration in VOL 1 of the "Dream Plan Build " DVD.) Using foam to build authentic and substantial mountains with minimal plaster takes considerably more skill, time and unbelievable mess. Furthermore, if you have to purchase the foam from HD/Lowes, it is WAY more expensive than screen wire or cardboard strips, which was your reason for avoiding that superb WS plaster cloth product.And put drywall mud down the sink at your own risk. Joe Daddy does his best to keep any plaster out of his sink trap and recommends you do the same.my 2 cents worth nothing moreJoe
Joe daddy you need to calm down there son!
Did you even read my post? I said mud and foam work best for ME....and I don't pay for the foam, I get it free, and $10 for a 5 gal. bucket of mud is CONSIDERABLY cheaper than WS plaster stuff. The added weight is minimal, and I'm not even concerned with weight because I build my benchwork right, you can stand on it and jump up and down. You have your way of doing something and you seem to scoff at anyone elses ideas...why? I said there is no ''right or wrong'' way to make a mountain\hill.....everyone has their own ideas, why not accept this fact?
I also said I wouldn't put mud down the sink...wash tools off , yes....but not dump a huge glob down the sink.
The old fashioned way of plaster and paper towels does work, the screen wire and plaster works, the cardboard and plaster towels is fine too....BUT....they don't work for me. So if that makes you mad, I guess you'll have to get over it.
ARTHILL wrote: Concerning keeping plaster, if it is completly airtight, it will keep. A pin hole in the bag will eventually turn the who bag into a block.Concerning Drywall mud, if it drys, it is not plaster and can be washed down a drain. I do not know about a septic system. Plaster does not dry, it cures and will cure underwater and will clog the trap every time. You can tell, if it turns warm when it cures it is plaster. if it turns cool it is drying and not plaster.This is a small but VERY important difference when dealing with it, if water will disolve it later. As I said earlier, fine detail work, carved into drywall mud will disolve when painted with water based paint.
Concerning keeping plaster, if it is completly airtight, it will keep. A pin hole in the bag will eventually turn the who bag into a block.
Concerning Drywall mud, if it drys, it is not plaster and can be washed down a drain. I do not know about a septic system. Plaster does not dry, it cures and will cure underwater and will clog the trap every time. You can tell, if it turns warm when it cures it is plaster. if it turns cool it is drying and not plaster.
This is a small but VERY important difference when dealing with it, if water will disolve it later. As I said earlier, fine detail work, carved into drywall mud will disolve when painted with water based paint.
Good coments jwar. You are right about chunks of mud down a drain. Chunks go in the trash. Washing mud tools in the sink is ok, because if any does get in the trap, it will disolve in time. Thus using lots of water is assumed. Putting it in a septic system is an unknown to me.
Concerning painting mud, when you brush paint on mud it does disolve the mud a little. If you have intense detail, you run the risk of softening it. For using a mud mix like ground goop, it should make no difference. Thus I do not make rock molds out of mud, that uses plaster.
For plaster I wash things in a 5 gallan pail, that I clean out every 6 months or so, not in the sink, but on the gravel drive.
concerning water for preservation, that works with drywall mud, but NOT with any of the plasters
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
John, I looked at your mountains at Photobucket and think they look great. What colors/procedure do you like when coloring them. It looks mighty fine!
Jarrell
jwar wrote:Thank you for the kind words Jacon. Its a different proceedure then most use. I will post a thread on it if you think there would be any interest?...John
John, by all means! And with pictures and more pictures. Can't wait to see it.
LD357 wrote:Yes R.T. drywall mud is joint compound. And I agree it is NOT plaster...you might be able to ''plaster'' with it, but it is in no way,shape or form plaster.
We are making some real progress, now we all agree one can plaster with drywall mud and one should not put it (drywall mud) down the sink.
Now if we can only get you to use a normal font and stop shouting!
We'll forego getting you to understand that plaster is a noun for those substances that can be used to plaster (verb) something.
Fini
joe-daddy wrote: LD357 wrote:Yes R.T. drywall mud is joint compound. And I agree it is NOT plaster...you might be able to ''plaster'' with it, but it is in no way,shape or form plaster.We are making some real progress, now we all agree one can plaster with drywall mud and one should not put it (drywall mud) down the sink. Now if we can only get you to use a normal font and stop shouting! We'll forego getting you to understand that plaster is a noun for those substances that can be used to plaster (verb) something.Fini Joe
Joe,
Just because something can be used in a way other than what it was made for, that doesn't mean that the name automaticaly changes - quite the oppisite, the name remains the same, just the use changes.
Case in point, just because 'roofing paper' can be used on a wall, that doesn't make it 'wall paper'. Just because chain link fencing can limit damage from a RPG to a vehical, it does not mean that it's name suddenly became armor - just it's use does - and in this case calling it armor just denotes it's use, not it's actual name.
Just because a Band-Aid( espicaly those kinds that already come with an antibiotic on it ) meets the definetion of plaster " a solid or semisolid preparation spread upon cloth, plastic, or other material and applied to the body, esp. for some healing purpose " , does not mean that people call it such, but very rarely - I recall my grandmother calling it that, while she was alive.
Sure joint compound / drywall mud, can be used like plaster is used, but that is not what it is made for and it's name and the materials that it's made from stay the same, and are very different from the materials used to make from real plasters. Even with a septic system, washing joint compound off your hands, is no different, than washing hands that are particulary dirty with common everyday mud from the garden.
Peace.
I hope you do it, there's always a need for seeing how others do a job. I know most are here to learn all they can. I like your work and would like to learn more about it. I may not get mine to look as good as yours, but to me close counts in horse shoes AND MRRing.
Hello to all,
I thought I might throw in the towel before getting into a debate! So, all information that I have read up until now describes many great ideas and believe me there are tons, I started model RRing just a few short years ago and have tried all of the methods mentioned here. Now I would like to share some of my own observations.
First and foremost I use all water-soluable paints, acrylic gels, acrylic sealers and for scenery base I use acrylic tube-type gap filler. The kind used to fill in around lose carpentry jobs, see we're not all perfect. This stuff comes in a gun type tube that we all have seen at the Home Depot, etc. and it thins with water, mixes with the acrylic paints I use for all of my hobbies, and it brushes on, in layers to cover just about any base for mountains, creek beds and all the terrain you could possibly imagine.
It does not crack, does fill in nicely and is most often confused in use with those around the home fix-it jobs we all trade train time for, right? Another handy product in the water soluable dept. is the PolyWax brand of acrylic sealer, poured in thin layers and not smelly at all, make great water for filling the ponds, lakes, and white water rivers. Use it as the complete filler for clear water or over your favorite color for water, the effects make any body of water look deep enough for requiring a life guard on duty at your beach, now there's a thought!
More info about acrylics and if anyone here models military vehicles or aircraft, I have posted on the FSM site forum as well, but here goes anyway for you pure RR fans...just kidding,, we all need a hobby to get a break from all the others, right? Acrylic paints mix with water, blue colored windshield wiper fluid and 70% Isopropyl Alcohol. And with the right colors that are matched to just about everything in the real world, they work great. Better known as craft paints and in the "craft section" of hobby stores they are as much in quality as the name brand paints. Try them if you dare to step away from name brand and see for yourself.
More later,
johncpo
You stated earlier that joint compound IS plaster, thats why several people corrected you, you can use tar to plaster, doesn't make it plaster does it? plaster [noun] is plaster of paris,hydrocal or similar chemical reaction substances....joint compound air dries, so regardless of what info you might think you found, it isn't plaster.