The Gurus of G Gauge:
No, not electrically. Financially.
I finally found an article on laying track. Admittedly, this article focussed on 'raised' track using 4x4's set deep into the ground on about 2 ft centers and concreted. Then wolmanized 2x10's were recommended for stringers between the posts, topped by wolmanized 1x10's to put the track on. But it seemed to suggest that'd be good for ground level runs as well.
Just doing some rough math, I believe I could buy an abandoned section of the old MoPac with a few obsolete 1:1 scale engines and rolling stock for just a few dollars more.
I'd independently concluded that suitable inch wolmanized on the ground (and fastened down with rerod) might be good, before I ran into this article.
Can someone PLEASE point me to a 'how to lay track on the ground' article?
Thanks,
Les Whitaker
Don't know how old you are, but if you want a railroad that you will lose interest in due to maintenance and getting down on the ground all the time, then do it on the ground.
We built the CCRy 15+ years ago without any of us having ever seen a garden railroad.
We built it between 1' and 5' off the ground.
We operate regularly, now that we cannot get on the ground we can still work the railroad.
I'd never do it any other way.
10" is overkill.
We use 2X4 on straights, 2X6 curve cut on curves, and filled with dirt against rock, rr tie or block walls.
Fill as you can.
The 2X4 is perfect spacing, halfway between the rail and the outer edge of the ties, so any ballast that washes in a monsoon doesn't expose 4" of wood on each side.
Another problem is cupping.
2X12's are HORRIBLE, 2X10's BAD, 2X6's acceptable, 2X4's perfect.
TOC
Hi Les,
Don't get bogged down in trying to find the right way, we all have our own choice and what works for me may not work for you. A trench filled with gravel and the track floating in the gravel means lots of maintenance but I enjoy doing it. Now I'm getting a little bit older I have just started lifting my track to do the groundwork to raise it about 1', it's being raised with shuttering and soil infill, gravel on top and the track floating in the gravel. Same as before but higher! Get some track outside mate, see how it behaves and whether your trains like how you've done it, if they don't, you'll have learnt something and then try something else.
Cheers,
Kim
The Home of Articulated Ugliness
Greetings Les,
s you will have seen we all have different ideas on the advantages/disadvantages of garden railroad construction techniques.
Those who favour raised layouts have valid points regarding maintenance and accessability. Likewise those who prefer to have their trains running on the ground amidst the flora and fauna equally have valid points.
When I built my railroad last summer I chose ground level in the main as my wife felt it looked aethetically better than stilts (however high) and this has enabled her to become involved as well. She is looking after the horticultural side of things.
If you are fortunate enough to have an area which has a slope to it then a raised part of your track can arise. This can be an area where you are able to access the track more easily - that is if you are not as nimble as you once were , if you are still nimble then you can do as you please and count your blessings.
There is plenty of useful advice here and of course there are good magazine articles to read.
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
Depends where you live? I'm in LA where snow/frost heave isnt an issue.
I just layed a 3inch gravel base and plopped the track right down onto it, of course I'm still just a spritely young whippersnapper at 43, so getting down on the ground doesnt pose too many ills for me.
However when I buld my new layout, given its grades and curves its definetly going to have a base support system! As my layout is going to be closer to 12-18" raised at its low point I was going to use 2x4s as piers, a treated cut to shape plywood base with a treated 1x stringers under it. I do have concerns over whether or not I'll have premature rot issues as applied treatments dont last too long here. I might consider something similar to TOCs approach using pressure treated wood, had that stuff in the ground for planters for years with no troubles, but I have noticed warping, thats why I considered the plywood first..
Have fun with your trains
Go out to Paul Race's Family Garden Trains web site http://www.btcomm.com/trains/ and look at the article on the HPDE ladder system for a primer on that style of construction.
I'm utilizing a modified "post and plank" using 3/4" x 4" and 3/4" x 6" concrete board stabilized and leveled via 1" schd 40 PVC screwed to 2x4 nominal blocks every 30 to 36 inches. My track is on the ground in a raised bed but needs significant stability due deer, varmints and dogs loping thru it.
If expense is your issue the crushed rock and fines will likely be the cheapest based on my research.
good luck what ever you decide...
markl
My roadbed is around $2.00, the artical is in Mylargescale.coms artical page.
But most folks think its too much work , but after they have been here and ran. They go home and do the same thing.
Much easier than what you read.
Is it REAL? or Just 1:29 scale?
Long live Outdoor Model Railroading.
Dunrobin:
You've hit on what I'd concluded to do before I bought my first piece of G Gauge. (A used Aristo Sw). Here's why, and I'll try to answer all the other folks who took time to reply: Yes, I'm gettin' old. But I have lots more time than money. I used to farm, so getting down on the ground isn't any big deal. (Getting back up is, sometimes<g>). My designated spot is essentially an abandoned strip of the back yard that's sloped and washed. It causes flooding problems in my backyard and basement in very wet springs. Here in MO, at the confluence of the Missouri & Mississippi, we get some bad winters (like this one) but more often, mild ones. So, I need to trench anyway. I already know I'll need trestles and don't mind building them, but not right away. I want a simple P to P setup, just for ease of installation and to 'feel' my way along. Wife has been wanting a pond for a number of years. I know I'll have to dig 'cuts' and allow for drainage, thus lots of little bridge-type culverts. RR will be pre-1900 logging & mining. Trolley or lite rail might come some years from now. I figure to die here, so moving on isn't in the plan. Low investment rate and slow growth via handbuilt equipment/structures insofar as practicable is my envisioned mode of progress.
Thanks again to all who replied.
vsmith wrote: Depends where you live? ...... I just layed a 3inch gravel base and plopped the track right down onto it, of course I'm still just a spritely young whippersnapper at 43, so getting down on the ground doesnt pose too many ills for me........ I do have concerns over whether or not I'll have premature rot issues as applied treatments dont last too long here. I might consider something similar to TOCs approach using pressure treated wood, had that stuff in the ground for planters for years with no troubles, but I have noticed warping, thats why I considered the plywood first..
Tom Trigg
I live in the tropics and it hasn't rained much here for about 5 years but when it does rain its of a night time and it is monsoonal, very heavy.
I just put down crusher fines and then my track and i have very little trouble, but what every one says is quite correct; what is best for me may not be best for you and in this hobby there is no right or wrong way of doing anything. For slightly (up to 200 mm) elevated i have started using bricks coated with Glopatta (all from this forum) higher elevation, i use 9 mm marine tyope ply with 20 mm sides of 4 mm marine type ply and i coat the whole thing with several coats of paving paint. I make a type of tray 110 mm wide or the size of a brick, this is then filled with fines and my track on top of that. I buy all the ply in big sheets and cut it up with my Triton sawing table.
Before you think about mixing stones with fines read my "Incredible situation" posting.
rgds ian
Indor:
I read your 'fines' problem. Even put in my worth. Around here, there's so much ferrous (ferrite?) crap in the clay that it drives a metal detector nuts. Our local Magnetic North (compass north) is 5 deg W of true N. if I remember correctly. Most of the lower 2/3rds of the state is that way.
I'm waiting the summer garage sales. Every now 'n again I run onto G gauge stuff. It usually isn't as cheap as I'd like, but it's out there.
Someone mentioned a 2x4 for a railbed. Wonder how it'd look, beveled 45 deg at the top and painted slate gray and dusted with small gravel? I'll try, soon's the snow melts.
Les
Les thqat sounds quite interesting, metalic ground.
I am also a qualified navigator and the east coast of aAustralia is, magnetic morth is about 7 to 15 deg east of true north. The further north you go the more the deviation, its about 12 deg here at 26 deg south 149 deg east. We are about as far south of the equator, as we are west of the international date line i think its about 1600 nautical miles.
Rgds ain
GearDrivenSteam wrote:My take on it has always been, if you want to play trains, do it. If you want to holler about how much it costs, you probably need to take up another hobby.
And posts like yours are such a wonderful way to bring and keep new people in the hobby...not. Do you enjoy being rude?
Back on topic, regarding costs. When I had a garden, I went with free floating track on fines as well. My biggest problems were dandelions and thistles (never could teach the mowing boy NOT to blow the stuff into the garden)...now I have a small indoor layout built on a diningroom table with a plywood overlay... not fancy, but servicable. Almost everything I have is Lehmann/LGB, but I bought most of it secondhand at reasonable prices...it still operates flawlessly. It took a little longer (almost 2 years looking for the mogul) to get the stuff I wanted, but most of it eventually showed up at a price I was comfortable with.
Now that at long last you've found someone to feel superior to, I hope you will feel better.
Easy gentlemen, we all have our opinion even if it isn't the same as mine!
Rgds ian
If that guy's post is reflective of even a sizeable minority of the people in this hobby, I want to get out before I get in any further. That's where I'm coming from. He's forgettable. But how prevalent is his attitude?
Les, I think you will find that there are people who like to pretend they are superior in EVERY hobby. Some are immature jerks, some just forget that there is a real person on the other end of the internet connection, and a few might even be creepy crazy like Norman Bates (Don't think I've actually met any of those yet, tho).
However, MOST people in the hobby are friendly, helpful (if a bit opinionated), and fun to "talk" to. Please, before you decide to chuck the hobby, try dropping by the My Large Scale (MLS) chat some evening between about 10pm and 1am eastern...you'll meet a bunch of the good 'uns--they even occasionally discuss trains (instead of food)!
Les,
This forum and this hobby (large scale) are no different from any other undertaking. Most of the folks I've met who enjoy the hobby and most of the forum members are "good guys". However, there are exceptions, as there is everywhere else. Some folks have the resources to go "top shelf" and don't always stop to consider that not everyone is as fortunate.
Garden railroading can be an expensive proposition. All of us know and understand this and we all went into it with our eyes wide open. I think the point that's being made is that if the cost of doing things "right" is too steep for one's income, then it's probably a good idea to stop and reconsider before one gets in too deep.
But, this is a very diverse hobby. You can buy an inexpensive starter set on sale and a loop of track and plop it on a level piece of ground and have a ball. You may actually get more satisfaction out of your starter set than the guy who's invested many thousands of dollars and still isn't satisfied because he just can't ever reach perfection. After all, most of this hobby is in your head, it takes on life in your imagination.
If you love trains and you like to play with them then do it and don't worry about anyone else.
Walt
Greetings
Seing the comment by Ralph about the lack of shoes recalled to my mind a dear friend who was a Head Teacher at a school in what in now Tanzania. He was in fact a monk.
One of the children once said to him "Father you must be rich"! He thought for a moment and reflected that as he was a monk he did not own anything he had - all the few things he had really belonged to his Order, including his clothes.
He said to the child "why do you think I am rich then"? The child answered but Father you have TWO pairs of shoes.
Nobody gets into a hobby to SAVE money! You can indeed spend as much or as little as you can afford. I started with a B'mann set; I still have it and use it every day. My current railroad was built with odds and ends and recycled materials. I've got relatively little money into it, but I did spend money. I can also lay down the plastic and get what I want, but I keep my expenditures to a minimum. I view the hobby as a ratio of fun vs. money spent. If I can spend 2 weeks building something that cost $10 in materials it's more of a value to me that spending $600 on a RTR that took no time at all. Personal choice, that's what it's about.
On the subject of the monk and wealth, my church sent a container box of donated items to our missionaries in Africa. In that box was the usual assortment of clothing and cookware, but somebody had donated a men's bicycle- nothing fancy, just a single speed men's bike. A few months later we got a letter from the missionaries- evidently the village was so excited about the bike that they had a 3 day dance and celebration! It seems that now their chief could ride to the tribal councils in 1/2 a day instead of taking the usual 3 days to walk. A simple bike that nobody here really wanted- perhaps it was the wrong color......
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
When our club does shows and visitors or new folks come up and ask Qs. Sticker shock is one part that we always have to deal with. many times we do point them in the cheapest route just to get them to try the hobby and see if its for them.
I also tell new guys NOT to bring their wives to my house until they have started in the hobby.
I don't want to scare them away when they see my train room.
I also tell them I have less money in my RR than my brother has in his two large jetskys with trailors and the new gargae to store them in .
Walt:
I knew up front G Gauge was expensive. What I didn't know about was the steep costs of 'prep work' for laying roadbeds. The one article I was referencing talked of a prohibitive--to me--investment in wolmanized lumber, concrete, etc. I didn't realize that so many of the pictures one sees are built in such manner and 'banked' or filled after to create the roadbed. Moving tons of dirt are out of the question. As someone pointed out, the old saying, 'cheap as dirt' is a misnomer. Anyway, I have acess to literally tons of free dirt. But I 'ain't' moving yards of it. Can't, and don't want to anyway.<g> So I posted to see if and how others had accomplished the feat of laying track (or building roadbeds) that was less labor-intensive. And lo, what comes back but a very nice, concise reply from a gentleman in FL. There is in fact a much cheaper, less labor-intensive way.
I know there are jerks in every hobby. My experience has been, however, they tend to be the most vocal. I wanted to know if this was one of those boards. It appears not to be--though I haven't finished running the list of posts since last night.
Thank you for taking time to post your thoughts.
Many of us are easily bruised, but take heart - don't give the hobby up because of comments made, often well intentioned, but vociferous none the less. I subscribe to a few of the Forms and can say that someone has rattled my cage on more than one of them.
But I am in the hobby, I can still run trains but they are not dependant on any Forums or people in them. Nevertheless there is a lot to be learned in them all; and not always railroad orientated. For instance I know how much snow has fallen in many parts of the U.S.A. recently.
After a while you get to know some of the folk there and like any bar/club/pub whatever, you soon learn who it is that is has the most to offer in help and friendship.
For my part I know I can leave the Forums anytime - but I can't leave the trains
Ralph:
Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts.
I once had a huge 027 Lionel layout. My wife was every bit as involved. Then babies started happening, somehow, and the RR went to pay for more immediately necessary stuff.
Now that I'm retired, I want to go back to 'playing with trains'. But in a way I couldn't with the Lionel, because it was collectible then, and kitbashing was a true investment in terms of lost revenue.
I want to build everything possible. I'm a retired XP machinist and have the necessary manual skills and a lot of the tools. It remains to be seen if I'm much of a 'finished modeler'.<g> (One who can build attractive-looking end items). I chose G after investing far too heavily while awaiting retirement, in HO. I can't see the durn stuff!<g> I want to handlay my own track. I'm working on duplicating an Aristo turnout. The frog is a bit of a headscratcher, but I haven't really sat down and studied it, yet. I'm still trying to get a test track together. I finally got to see a picture of a railbender, and will build one of my own 'soon'. First I want to see if I can adapt my roll bender. So, that's where I am: fumbling around trying to avoid re-inventing the wheel, and 'rushing ahead slowly'.
I too, had a background somewhat like yours. I always had boots, but we didn't have running water. Most didn't, in our neck of the Ozarks in the 40s-50s. But I wholly agree, that 'making do' mindset stays with one, and I've found it quite a good thing, over the years.
Check out my rebuilding the Dixie D SL thread. I used a pylon type of roadbed. So far it's held up with zero problems!
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/741319/ShowPost.aspx
Allen:
Thanks for taking time to express your thoughts.
Yup, I'm a newbie, I am. If you look up my replies to Walt and Ralph, you'll see pretty much my reasons for taking up G gauge. I'll add here that I like to be outside, and I like challenging problems. (But not overwhelming ones<g>). It's going to be a real challenge to build a RR on the sloping, washed ground I've selected. The RR, as envisioned, will be simple: mining and logging. Motive power will be 0-4-0's for the foreseeable future. I'm looking forward to scratchbuilding very much. (Again, please ref my reply to Walt).
I'm one of those who's been snowed on a good deal. Here at the banks of the Missouri and Mississippi, that is not unusual, but the long period of intense cold, with near-continuous snowcover, is.
Get the Garden Railways newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month