LGB 2 axle turning difficulty

[Anonymous]

Greetings. I've done some searching, but can't seem to locate a solution to this one...

Last year, for my son's first Christmas (1 wk old ;-) I bought him an LGB starter set - the European style with the Stainz loco. I always wanted one when I was a kid, and thought that every boy should have a great train set. :-)

Anyway, I noticed that, unlike my Christmas starter set which has 4 axles per car, the European cars with their two axles don't turn very well. He's got just the basic circle of track, so there's no change in direction, but the wheels seem to just drag on the inside lip around the layout, and after a few runs, the thing squeaks it's way around the circle. I switched to metal wheels, which seems to help a bit, but as I look at it, it appears that the axle/coupler design doesn't lend itself to properly orienting the axle on turns. It's not binding, and I've even put a drop of the LGB oil on the contacting surfaces between the axle assembly (truck?) and the bottom of the car.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to improve this? I added roadbed to collect the brass dust mess, but would really love to find a solution.

Thanks in advance!

[Curmudgeon]

They are SUPPOSED to be self-aligning.

But, in real-life?

They never work when backing.

If you have a hook on each end, it helps guide the hoops together.

I gave up, oh, 20 years ago, and ran a screw through the pivot truck into the frame to hold them straight.

Then I scrapped them all for 4-axle versions.

But, the screw seemed to make them more "consistent".

If there is enough overall drag, it will tend to pull them in line.

 

Lotsa luck

[Anonymous]

metal wheels sometimes help (I don't know why -- maybe the extra weight, maybe because they are more free rolling) And yes, so does using hooks on both ends

[Puckdropper]

I've got a simalar situation.  What I do is run a American (4 axle) style box car behind the LGB cars and the extra weight and drag helps tremendously.  I've thought about wiring the trucks together so they won't turn, but a screw would probably be better.

If you've got some ball bearings to play with, you may try putting those between the wheelset and car body and see if that helps any.  It probably won't do much good, but just remember this hobby's about having fun and trying new things.  

[Anonymous]

So on "real" two axle cars, do the wheels remain fixed, or do they actually turn?

In my case, I run a simple circle around the Christmas tree (though I hope to expand it this year), and if the wheels don't turn to the contour of the track, they squeak their way around. That's the only issue with it. If it's common, fine, I can play. But if others have had success in changing it, I'm all ears. Now if the solution is to add more cars, well... ;-)

[gvdobler]

I've been running the same set for 20 years now with both 4-axle and 2-axle cars and have not had the problem.  The 2-axle cars (4 total wheels) should have fixed axles that don't turn.  If the axles swivled or turned on a 2-axle car there would be no way to keep them tracking straight when backing the train.  Only the coupler hook should move.  The squeak usually comes from where the axle points meet the plastic.  You should never have to lube the flanges where they meet the track.

Sounds more like the wheels need gauged correctly on the axle or maybe the axles are not lined up straight. 

Let us know how you make out.

 

[Anonymous]

  The 2-axle cars (4 total wheels) should have fixed axles that don't turn.  If the axles swivled or turned on a 2-axle car there would be no way to keep them tracking straight when backing the train.  Only the coupler hook should move. 

Sorry, but all the Lehmann (LGB) made 2 axle cars I've ever seen except for the uber short "field railway" cars DO have swivelling axles (you might just want to look again).  I think it is one of those compromises for R-1 curves

[Anonymous]

I didn't know you could get LGB stuff without swivelling axels; as a matter of fact i thought they had a patent on this type of system; which had only recently run out; but that was only my own view and not based on anything factual.

like others i have not had anytrouble with my LGB rolling stock not having a good alignment on the track.

 

Rgds ian

[gvdobler]

You guys are correct about 2-axle cars.

I never paid any attention, I guess because they move so little that I never have to "fiddle" them onto the track.

That does lead to the question, are your's free to move? 

[jebouck]

I fasten my two axle bobber LGB cabeese trucks so they will not swivel. (Run a screw into the flat part of the axle, up into the bottom of the car. Make sure it is lined up correctly.)  I also use BB metal wheelsets and have not had a problem with any of them since I "fixed" them this way.

jb

[Anonymous]

Well in my case, it's not that they don't return to center. They don't get the chance on a circle of track. :-)

My issue is that since it is a circle of track, the lip on the wheels scrapes against the inside of the outer rail, all the way around the circle, causing it to squeal. I'm guessing there's not much that can be done to change it, beyond extending the track so it's not a circle. As I mentioned, I swapped out the plastic wheels for metal ones, which quieted things down a bit, but not completely. The wheels spin freely without noise on their own.

[Puckdropper]

There's two ways to fix it:  Isolate the wheels so they turn evenly, or reduce the size of the inside wheel until it no longer squeals.  Both are fairly poor options, so they're not done.

What's happening is both wheels are making contact with the curving rails.  The distance traversed by the outside is greater than that on the outside, but since both wheels are tied together they have to go the same speed.  One wheel then has to slip to allow movement, and that's what produces the squeal.

If you want to prove this mathmatically, recall the formula for the circumference of a circle:  C=pi*d  As the diameter increases, so does the circumference.  Therefore, the outside wheel has more distance to travel than the inside.  QED.

It may reduce somewhat as track and wheels break in a bit and become a little less resistant to slipping.

[Anonymous]

I thought the wheels were free on the axle so each wheel should turn at the speed it needs too.

Rgds Ian

[John Busby]

There's two ways to fix it:  Isolate the wheels so they turn evenly, or reduce the size of the inside wheel until it no longer squeals.  Both are fairly poor options, so they're not done.

What's happening is both wheels are making contact with the curving rails.  The distance traversed by the outside is greater than that on the outside, but since both wheels are tied together they have to go the same speed.  One wheel then has to slip to allow movement, and that's what produces the squeal.

If you want to prove this mathmatically, recall the formula for the circumference of a circle:  C=pi*d  As the diameter increases, so does the circumference.  Therefore, the outside wheel has more distance to travel than the inside.  QED.

It may reduce somewhat as track and wheels break in a bit and become a little less resistant to slipping.

Hi puckdropper

A railway wheel set while negotiating a curve does have one wheel smaller than the other.

You will note that a correctly shaped wheel has a conical tread on it, this moves to create a big wheel one side and a small wheel the other the flange is there to stop the wheel falling off the track.

The squeal mentioned is probably due to one of the trucks not following the track properly.

I had this problem on one of my wagons a check revealed a tiny bit of moulding flash that once removed cure-ed the problem 

I have thought about mounting a light weight expansion spring between the trucks to make sure they straighten up when they go from a curve to the straight and to make reversing over an R1 point a bit more reliable

But have yet to test the theory.

Not all prototype  4 wh stock has a rigid frame though most of it does there is a thing called a Grover?? bogie which is basically what LGB does on its 4 Wh stock for much the same reason the Grover bogie was invented horrendous tight track radius on the full size railways but I think they have a way making sure the bogie's work together and are straight on a straight

regards John

[Curmudgeon]

"I thought the wheels were free on the axle so each wheel should turn at the speed it needs too.

Rgds Ian"

 

"I don't subscribe to any magazines nor do i need too, and i can't see why you really need to do this all the time. Nor do i go to hobby shops, they really don't do anything for me.

yet i have a very modern and technically advanced layout.

Rgds ian"

 

 

Ya know, possibly, just possibly mind you, subscribing and/or reading might just help with the understanding.......

[DannyS]

John, "Grovers Bogies", was very common on early Queensland Railways, all wagon classifications ending in "G" we so fitted, FG, AG, etc.  The Grovers Patent Bogie, was two single axle wheelsets tied together with rods from corner to corner, so when the wagon entered a curve the wheelsets were forced to accomodate the curve.   Trouble was when empty, with not much weight, they sometimes stayed in the curved position and jumped the tracks upon entering straight or tangent track!
Ian, the only G wheelsets I know that are free rolling on the axle are the LGB Roller Bearing wheelsets.  All other wheelsets have fixed wheels on the axle, which caused the problem as mentioned above.
Regards, Danny Sheehan in Oz.

[Puckdropper]

A railway wheel set while negotiating a curve does have one wheel smaller than the other.

You will note that a correctly shaped wheel has a conical tread on it, this moves to create a big wheel one side and a small wheel the other the flange is there to stop the wheel falling off the track.

I didn't remember that part, thanks for the reminder.  You'll still get a couple squeaks and squeels as a train negotiates curves.

[aspinallar]

Then again, 1:1 trains squeal like a banshee going through curves!

Alan in PA

[jebouck]

<Ian, the only G wheelsets I know that are free rolling on the axle are the LGB Roller Bearing wheelsets.  All other wheelsets have fixed wheels on the axle, which caused the problem as mentioned above.>

Any ball bearing wheel-set, be it LGB, Aristo, Raymond, etc, will eliminate your flange squeal. Aristo and Gary Raymond's also have free rolling wheels.

jb

[Anonymous]

So I did a quick test. It appears that the flange dragging on the rail is the source. If I take the wheel set and turn it to an appropriate angle, such that if you were to draw a line through the axle to the center of the circle of track, it would be straight, the noise goes away. Of course, it's only gone until the wheel set angle reduces so that the flange drags on the side of the rail. It's really not worth re-engineering, just the nature of the tight radius I suspect. I think the simple solution will be to expand the layout from a circle around the tree to one that takes up more of the family room.

And valid point about real cars going around turns squealing. More authentic, I suppose. Not necessarily neat under the tree, but it is what it is. Now to source enough track to make a sizeable loop around the family room...

[Anonymous]

So not to dredge a post back from the dead, but it looks like I've got it sorted out. I added straight track to convert the circle to a square, and it didn't help much. So what did? MORE USE! I ran the little Stainz and its cars around the track at high speed for a fairly lengthy period of time (1 hr total?). The net result is that the squeaking is 98% gone. I imagine with more use it'll entirely resolve itself. To illustrate what happened is a little difficult. The inside edge of the outer rail on curved sections is now polished and very smooth. The top of the outer rail on curved sections is interesting - the outer 1/2 appears to be the original LGB brass finish, while the inner 1/2 of the top surface is very shiny and polished. Running your fingernail on it reveals it to be much smoother. The top of the inner rail is even more interesting. The outer 1/2 is dark and coarse. The inner 1/2 is polished smooth. Point of note here is that the rubber drive wheel on the Stainz is currently on the outside rail - the train runs clockwise under the tree. The three cars have metal wheels. After all of this, the trucks turn side-to-side much more easily with the surface of the track "conditioned". So I guess the moral of the story here is - use your trains! It's good for them. ;-)