Roadbed

[dukebasketballer`]

Hi,
I am planning to expand my mainline this summer [^][yeah] and I want to know a good roadbed to use. Currently I have ground/crushed concrete that is packed in between 1x6's. This works great, but my extension will run allong the fence and I am afraid of the grass and weeds taking it over and I want it seem as though you cant see the track (that way mom wont freak out about it). My thought was to screw the track onto a board of some sort, but I dont know how to keep it from sliding out into the middle of the yard. Suggestions[?]
Thanks for your help[bow],
David
Its tournament time!
Let's Go Duke!

[ttrigg]

David;

If you are going to bury the wood "roadbed" be sure to use pressure treated wood. Make sure that when you cut it that you wear a protective mask and eye protection as the saw dust from that stuff can cause some serious effects (with enough exposure.) If you are concerned about the boards moving, then drive a 4x4 fence post into the ground (below ground level) and screw the "roadbed" to the posts. Since the pressure treating chemicals do not completely penetrate the wood, when you get the wood ask for some preservative that you can paint onto all cut surfaces, allow it to soak into the wood as per the instructions on the can before applying a second coat.. Again wear a mask and eye protection as those chemicals are bad for you as well.

[dukebasketballer`]

Thanks Tom,
This sounds like a great plan and it sounds as though it should hold up. But, I am still up for new ideas.
Thanks,
David
Let's Go Duke!

[ttrigg]

David;

Just another thought about wood. I have some pressure treated Southern Yellow Pine that has been in the ground for just over 15 years without any sign of decay. (Birdhouse posts, fence post, and other "yard art") If your budget can afford it check out the price, verse "garentee".

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Most building centers like Lowes or Home Depot carry what they call grading stakes. Since they are intended for more temporary use, they are not treated. You could get some, and soak them in a 5 gal bucket with a preservative chemical, and use them to place an occaisional stake to keep it all from "sliding".

You could also use treated 2X6 for your roadbed and fasten some treated 2X2 down the middle of the underside to give a keyway ot Teffect which would keep them from sliding.

Get some shelf brackets and mount the trains right on the fence (then you don't have to crawl around in the dirt to do things)

I'm sure you will get a bunch more ideas in short order!

[Anonymous]

David,

I'm new around here, but may bring some new ideas from the landscaping world, to help all of you save your backs and pockets. If your just putting the boards on the ground, or even recessing them, why not use some Garden spikes. The spikes are 1/2" X 10", and can be bought almost anywhere. Just drill a 1/2" hole (maybe 9/16"), every 1-2' and drive them in with a hammer. They will stop "SLIDING"; however may not stop tilting of the boards. That would require a tamped "base", with almost any technique. The other thing is try the plastic board products out there. There's no poisons, and will last forever. Try epsplasticlumber.com; they're offereing black 2x4" material for $1.50/ ft. Just a thought.; hope it helps.

[whiterab]

In my "flat" portion of my layout I used a concrete roadbed. It's slower to build than a wooden roadbed but really quite easy to do. It last forever, no worry about weeds, easy to get level and absolutely no maintenance of the sub roadbed.

I built in 8' - 10' secttions. I just trenched down about 4" - 5" and lined the trench with plastic garden edging ripped down to the depth I wanted. I then filled the trench with concrete and double checked the level. While I was waiting for one section to set up, I'd extend the trench down.

When the first section was set, I'd just slide the garden edging down the new trench, stake it and repeat the process.

Didn't invent the process. Picked it up from several other Garden Railroaders and really liked it.

[Anonymous]

Here's what worked so far for me. Just signed up today. I use stuff called screenings, or crusher fines,or road dust, which is just slate colored leftovers from cutting and grinding slate, or whatever. Cheap enough. I put down a trench about 5" deep and 7"wide, then laid the track on top. Filled over the top a bit to hold the track steady, and it's been fine for about two years now. I'm thinking of covering it up to the surface of the ties though to avoid all the small chunks of local vegitation, etc. from lodging in the middle. Jim

[Anonymous]

Hi folks,

I have been out of MRR'ing for a while and have been thinking of getting into N or HO scale in the house..... well, with spring coming on....... it has me thinking more of an outdoor G scale. I want to weigh all my options, before I start spending my hard earned dollars. Thanks for any direction anyone might give me.

Jim wrote:

QUOTE: I use stuff called screenings, or crusher fines,or road dust, which is just slate colored leftovers from cutting and grinding slate, or whatever.

Where do you find these "screenings"?

whiterab wrote:

QUOTE: I built in 8' - 10' secttions. I just trenched down about 4" - 5" and lined the trench with plastic garden edging ripped down to the depth I wanted. I then filled the trench with concrete and double checked the level. While I was waiting for one section to set up, I'd extend the trench down.

This sounds easy enough.... but what do you secure your track with to the concrete?

Thanks for your help.

[Anonymous]

Also, what track should I look to buy? This is my first posts to the G Scale forums, so I am a little lost and really don't know where to start.

Thanks folks !

[whiterab]

Charlie,

There are several differences in building outside than building inside. One big difference is that you have to contend with big changes in temperature which then shows itself in contraction and expansion of the track. As to "securing" the track, just like the 1:1 railroads I float the track in the ballast. The summer Texas sun will cause a bit of expansion in the rails and the track will move around a bit. The track will float in the ballast. One other note; the ties do not sit on the concrete. The concrete is the base the ballast sits on and the ties are embedded in the ballast.

Don't get too neat with your track joining. Leave a gap for expansion.

As long as you use a "rough" ballast such as crushed stone (not smooth garden gravel) the locking of the ballast is more than enough to keep your track in place. Crusher fines are great because the rock dust combined with the small rocks will lock up beautifully over time.

Selection of which track to use is a matter of personnal preference except for Bachmann track. Bachmann track is designed for INDOOR USE ONLY. I use Aristo Brass and am quite happy with it. But I would recommend spending some time studying the many different options for roadbed and track combinations. Track work is much more involved when working outdoors but well worth the time and effort.

[Ray Dunakin]

I like the Aristo track, the price is about as reasonable as it gets in large scale and they have a sale in Jan-Feb where you can get one free box of track for every four boxes you buy. Of course, you're a bit late to get in on that deal.

USA Trains track is good too, and may be slightly cheaper. USA track has newer looking ties, with a finer grain. Aristo track has older looking ties, with larger grain and rounded corners. I mixed a few sections of USA track with the Aristo track, which makes it look like some of the ties have been replaced recently.

One thing I disliked about the USA track is that the joiners are really hard to remove. That's an issue if you plan to use rail clamps instead of the standard joiners. I opted to use rail clamps because they provide a very solid physical and electrical connection and yet make it easy to remove a section of track without disturbing adjoining sections.

You may be able to get screenings/crusher fines from a local quarry.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Joe, that is a great bit of info and is much appreciated. I've got a lot of reading and thinking to do.

Cheers !!!

[Anonymous]

Thanks to you also, Ray. Are you guys using the Flex Track?? Aristo and USA sounds good, your info is valuable. It's much appreciated.

[Anonymous]

Charlie, Although I am a newbie just starting my G outdoor layout, I can provide some info. FYI "flex track" in G isnt like flex track in other scales, most of it is designed to be bent with a rail bender, unlike in HO/N where you flex it and nail it. Because the rail is larger it wants to stay strait. The benders are easy to use. Also Aristo 8' flex comes seperate from the ties and has to be assembled, there are different benders some which you bend the rail seperate from the ties, and one you bend it on the ties.
Decisions you need to make before buying track:
1) track vs batt r/c power -each material has different conductivity (need to be cleaned), price and strength
2) scale height vs oversized but more rugged (ie can handle a little more abuse)
3) layout size & curve diameter -larger diameter runs more equipment & the equipment looks better on the curves. Flex allows variable diameter curves bent to match location.

I personally bought the code 332 (larger, but more durable) Aristo 8' brass flex(cheaper than Stainless, weathers to a black, & I am goin batt power) during the jan feb sale as that was the best possible buy on track, although shipping was a bit more, I think it will save me joiner derailments and such problems, I think the shipping will be more than made up for in savings on rail clamps. I am going to try the Train-Li bender as it bends both rails at once on the ties. and as close to 20' diameter curves as I can get. but that is just me. My subroadbed method is going to be Marty Cozad's/whiterab (cement) -durablity/mildly stepable
This is a very abrivated answer, seach this & mylargescale.com forums for much longer & detailed answers. How I plan to do it is best for me, but not everyone. Each of the different methods has a reason people do it, it depends on what you want in the end.

[Anonymous]

Hi Rockmodeler,

Thanks for the info. I haven't totally decided whether I'm going G or not..... but I am leaning that direction. I like the idea of working it into a Garden and having fun while outside, working in the yard.

I've been reading all I can find, going to swing by Books-A-Million today and see if they have any mags.

I saw or read somewhere.... where someone mounted the track on posts/boards and elevated it over the landscape..... have you seen anything on this? Or know where I can find out info on that kind of "roadbed" system?

Also, is Battery Power the "way to go" with the G stuff? It seems it would be the easiest way to go????

Your info is valuable and I appreciate it.

[whiterab]

For the ladder roadbed method see this site;

http://www.btcomm.com/trains/primer/roadbed/ladder1.htm

An alternative if you want to buy roadbed off the shelf is Mainline Enterprise roadbed now being carried by Split Jaw Rail Clamps. Their site is

http://www.railclamp.com/

Click on the Mainline Enterprise box.

[tangerine-jack]

QUOTE: Originally posted by hotshot charlie

...........................................,


I saw or read somewhere.... where someone mounted the track on posts/boards and elevated it over the landscape..... have you seen anything on this? Or know where I can find out info on that kind of "roadbed" system?

Also, is Battery Power the "way to go" with the G stuff? It seems it would be the easiest way to go????

Your info is valuable and I appreciate it.

That was probably my roadbed you are refering to. It's designed to stand alone if required, but mine will be encased in a viaduct made from blue foam. I used PVC pipe filled with concrete with a 3/8" stainless bolt set on top, The roadbed is 5/8" pressure treated ply cut with jig saw and bolted on. This idea can be modified in any number of ways to fit your particular needs, you can use all wood, all PVC, or all steel in any number of combinations or complexities.

The overiding concern of outdoor garden railroads is ruggedness and simplicity. The more complex something is, the more maintenance will be needed and it will have a much shorter life span and much higher aggrivation factor. Depending on your wants and needs, track power is good for small railroads, batt/rc is better for larger pikes, brass and stainless steel track both have equal number of pros and cons, prefab vs handlaid have support on both sides.

My suggestion for a newbie is to build a small starter railroad on 50-70ft of track, using simple track power. Smooth out a space in your yard and just lay the track on the grass or dirt and start railroading. In a few weeks you will have learned enough to make an informed choice of what kind of railroading you want to do, and what type of equipment/power/track you want. Then go shopping and hide the reciepts from the wife.[;)]

[Anonymous]

Hey t-Jack,
Now that's what I'm talking about. I like that idea and looks to be fairly simple.... although labor intensive.... but that's ok. I like that.

Hey whiterab,
Thanks for the links, very good stuff !

[Anonymous]

Hey t-jack,

How deep are your concrete filled PVC pipes in the ground? Also, what track are you using and are you satisfied?

Thanks!

[tangerine-jack]

My pylons are on average 18-20" deep and filled with quickcrete. The caveat to that is my soil is soft and spongy when wet, and hard pack clay when dry. I had to put the pylons to a depth where they would be solidly mounted in the hard pack. Your soil is most likely completely different so you might want to experiment by driving in one or two pylons and putting a cinder block on top and see what happens after a few weeks.

I'm using Aristo-Craft prefab brass track and I have been 100% satisfied with the track, not so much with the turnouts (switch/points). The track has proven to be completely indestructable and trouble free. I know that a convert from indoor scale probably junked brass track a long time ago and views it as the anti-christ of all things model railroad, but it has shown itself to be a most excellent choice for outdoors. Take a look at my thread on rebuilding the Dixie D for more details http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=59536

As an aside, Garden Railroading is by nature labor intensive. Sell your xacto knife and buy a shovel and jig saw. Keep in mind that not only will you be building a model train, your "scenery" is 100% pure nature- dirt, rocks and real vegitation.
Good luck and welcome to REAL model railroading!

[Anonymous]

Thanks t-Jack, you have been extremely helpful. I will read your thread on the building of your railway.

Cheers and thanks a lot !

[skeenapac]

T-Jack and co,
That looks like an excellent method of building to raise the track to 'working' level. It's very similar to many railways in England and a great way to go for live steam operators. Just a reminder to anyone living in an area where you get frost. You would need to put the pylons at least 6 inches below the deepest frost otherwise they would heave and create a nightmare every spring. Thankfully, I wouldn't have that problem here on the wet coast. Further to that thought, I suppose if you used a long enough bolt you could put a nut and washer under the plywood and level it by moving the nut up and down, remembering to leave yourself enough free room underneath should you have to lower it. Or is that, in fact what you have done?

[imrnjr]

Good morning all... I am new to G scale, but have already made some decisions on the railway concering power and track, but have been struggling with a road bed methodology. I've priced out Mainline's, and the HPDE ladder as not in the budget.
Since we live in the country, in the West-central part of Texas I'm concerned with animals (deer rabbits armadillos,raccoons, and my large dog), and weather impacts. we have temp swings of 25 to 40 degrees in a normal day, and while our rainfall has been non-existant since last October, we get heavy thunderstorms at times which will release multiple inches of water in an hour. The property is a blank slate so the initial layout will be in a irregularly shaped raised bed (approximately 16" walls) of about 20 ft. by 40 ft. filled with clay loam soils and limestone river rock.

I like Tangerine-Jack's road bed method, but don't understand how it handles expansion, and how re-leveling is dealt with over time, both horizontally and side to side. I assume the hold down nuts and washers recessed in the plywood. and you could substitute or combine composite lumbers (Trex, etc.) or HPDE materials to increase long term survivability and match the tie rail strip expansion/contraction.

I believe I'll be in build mode in a about a month, (got to get the yard and sprinkler system done first of my kitchen pass will get pulled ) and any help here will be appreciated.

Mark R

Soon to be owner operator of the South Concho, Big Lake and Alkali Flats RR

[Anonymous]

Great forum! Lots of interesting ideas here. I still can not settle on a method to begin my GRR. Put in a raised area (brought in around 20 yards of topsoil) about two years ago so it is settled for sure now. Problem is time. With a 10 month old baby in the family now, time & $$ are two things we don't have. I was leaning toward the plastic roadbed method since you can remove it and take it with you when done and very easy to level. But at $2.89/ft ....well, does anyone know about how much in terms of crushed stone & ballast it takes per foot and what it cost them? I need to set up a budget for this. Still open to other methods that would make it easier to make modifications or remove if we should move.
Thanks!

[kstrong]

I know where you're coming from with regard to time. I've got a 5 month old. It's amazing how much of a production something as simple as going to Lowe's and buying some plants becomes.

Anyway--back to the question at hand - roadbed costs; I had 4 tons of ballast delivered for my railroad (June '06 GR), and that did around 300' of track with probably 1.5 tons left over. Figure 1 ton per 100' of track, and you should have plenty of material. I forget exactly what I paid for it, but it was in the ballpark of $10/ton plus delivery. If you've got a pick-up truck, you can use that easily enough and save the delivery charge.

Later, and congrats on the little one.

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

Thanks! We know all too well the work involved on the Lowes trips! So it sounds like I should just start digging and get this track in. So my next question(s) is/are:
For SE Michigan area:
How deep/wide for the trench? Should I line it with landscape fabric to control weeds? I will be using chicken grit for final ballast and looks but don't know what to fill the trench with. A local supply house has two items that may pass for the crushed rock everyone talks of. The first is crushed limestone 6A - also called driveway stone .01 the other is paver base .0097(3/8 in Down limestone)which is used under brick pavers and has lots of dust and very small stone, it packs tight like cement when wet but drains very well. Is that too small for the subroadbed? I am driving myself (and wife) crazy over the method to use to get this freakin track down.
Or would I be better off just looking at another method? I have to get track down this summer.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kbrown

Great forum! Lots of interesting ideas here. I still can not settle on a method to begin my GRR. Put in a raised area (brought in around 20 yards of topsoil) about two years ago so it is settled for sure now. Problem is time. With a 10 month old baby in the family now, time & $$ are two things we don't have. I was leaning toward the plastic roadbed method since you can remove it and take it with you when done and very easy to level. But at $2.89/ft ....well, does anyone know about how much in terms of crushed stone & ballast it takes per foot and what it cost them? I need to set up a budget for this. Still open to other methods that would make it easier to make modifications or remove if we should move.
Thanks!

I don’t have a lot of time either, which is why I decided to go the HDPE road bed route. Mine came to $2.50 a foot delivered. I also have the benefit of a well equipped ww’g shop, so milling it flat and ripping the rails wasn’t a hassle. If you don’t own a table saw or have access to one, you’ll need to factor that into your considerations.

Anyhow, HDPE is a very easy material to work with. Bending it into curves does not require all of the cutting and fitting conventional techniques do for raised roadbeds. Continuous , flowing curves are a breeze with this stuff. The track screws right to it and doesn’t require ballasting at all, unless that is desired for cosmetics. The plastic ties and HDPE have almost identical ratios of expansion and contraction so that isn’t really an issue.

There are a lot of considerations when formulating a plan of attack for GRR construction. I chose the HDPE method because my ROW varies in height by as much as 4’ in certain areas. My back yard is not easily accessible for backfilling and I didn’t want the hassle or expense of that anyway. My roadbed will be elevated a minimum of 1” (for drainage) to a max of about 3’ – 4’. Very little of it will be ballasted because I just don’t want the expense and maintenance issues ballast has.

I began a thread on my GRR a few months ago showing my progress. You may see the latest photos posted there. HTH and best of luck.

[mfifer]

Sorry for being stupid but does someone have a picture of this stuff and where do you get it.

QUOTE: Anyhow, HDPE is a very easy material to work with. Bending it into curves does not require all of the cutting and fitting conventional techniques do for raised roadbeds. Continuous , flowing curves are a breeze with this stuff. The track screws right to it and doesn’t require ballasting at all, unless that is desired for cosmetics. The plastic ties and HDPE have almost identical ratios of expansion and contraction so that isn’t really an issue.

Thanks , Mike

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mfifer

Sorry for being stupid but does someone have a picture of this stuff and where do you get it.
Thanks , Mike

Mike,

Here's the link that describes the HDPE roadbed system:
http://www.btcomm.com/trains/primer/roadbed/ladder1.htm

This is the supplier I purchased mine from:
http://epsplasticlumber.com/lumberpricing.shtml

HTH.