G Scale - Which one is it!

[Anonymous]

Let me add an afterthought to my earlier diatribe. The Europeans have it right - they call the ratio/gauge relationship 1:22.5 on 45mm gauge 3M, about which we argue as to whether or not we are justified in talking about G Scale. The figure 3 refers, quite reasonably, to the fundamental "scale" and the letter M to the prototype gauge represented. Nothing more is needed! Neil.

[Anonymous]

1:22.5 ratio running on 45mm gauge track. Any other ratio running on the same gauge track could, quite reasonably, be referred to as "Large Scale". This is what most of us do here in Australia, in sturdy defiance of many colleagues who run models on track of wider gauges ( 2&1/2inches, 3&1/2 inches, 5 inches & 7&1/4 inches. all of which are common in this country) to varying ratios, most of which are as inaccurate as 1:29 on 45mm gauge track! The ratio 1:24 ("half inch scale") is reasonably correct for 2&1/2 gauge, which is the original Number 3 "Gauge" dating back to the early 1900s. This, basically, is the "scale" with which LGB started when they set about developing models to run on 45mm gauge track, representing metre gauge (and similar) prototypes. The arithmatic involved led to their adoption of a ratio of 1:22.5. One forum member related this, incorrectly, to Number 2 Gauge, which is 2 inches and is now, to all intents, extinct. Work the arithmatic backwards and you will see the relation between the "scales" so widely used for 1435mm "Standard" Gauge protoptypes and 900mm "Metre" Gauge prototypes on 2&1/2 inch and 45mm Gauges respectively. Again, turning to the dichotomy between 1:32 & 1:29 ratios, if you work the arithmatic back very carefully, you will see that neither is strictly accurate, despite commonly held dogma! As I model American prototype Standard Gauge, I prefer the latter, because it's more readily available in Australia! Having made that decision, I must stick with it. Conversely, we tend to refer to live steam models running on 45mm and smaller gauges as "Small Scale live steam"! Neil

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[kimbrit]

Here we go again!! It's in the garden, it's 12" to 1' and it's in the eye of the beholder as to whether it's right or not. If you want small trees to scale the layout then so be it. If you leave everything at 12" to 1' then again, so be it. It's your railway, it can be whatever you want it to be but in the end it's a model railway that happens to be in a garden. Enjoy!
Kim

[Steve Stockham]

Scale/Gauge........ah, the great debate! It has been and should always be #1 Gauge when referring to 45mm track!!!!! As to the scale, it's in flux! It is what we think it is and I defy anyone to tell us differently! [}:)][;)]

[tangerine-jack]

HJ,
No arguement from me on that one. I see a lot of smaller scale modelers get very confused when switching to "G"arden scale so I was just trying to put a little focus on the fact that a majority of us don't care about "accurate scale", just "correct proportion"- which is why the manufacturers respond by making what they make. It's a philosophy difference.

[Curmudgeon]

Wait a minute........they do tell ya!

"Suitable for Large Scale"

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack

"G"-umby scale. Does that sum it up? If you notice, there are very few accurate scale modelers in the G realm, most of us really don't care a lot about that sort of thing and prefer a little whimsey in what we do. I for one don't give a rip about what scale something is so long as it "looks" right when on the track and chugging past the full sized plants.

But to each his own..........................................

TJ

No problem, but Henry wrote

QUOTE: I'm just entering the world of G Scale Railroading. 1:29 or 1:32 Which one is the closest to true G Scale. Or is there any such thing? I see at my local hobby shop that Aristo-Craft boxes say 1:29, MTH boxes say 1:32. What's the deal, I'm confused, I want to start out as close to scale as possible.
Henry

A bit more of the "background" doesn't hurt, [;)][:)][:)] and there is plenty more to "Large Scale" than running trains around the "fishy pond" and "tip-toeing through the tulips". [;)][:)][:D][:D]
BTW at least most of the NA Large Scale mfgs state what scale their items are supposed to be. Unlike the "Inventors of G", who much rather leave the consumer guessing.

[tangerine-jack]

"G"-umby scale. Does that sum it up? If you notice, there are very few accurate scale modelers in the G realm, most of us really don't care a lot about that sort of thing and prefer a little whimsey in what we do. I for one don't give a rip about what scale something is so long as it "looks" right when on the track and chugging past the full sized plants.

But to each his own..........................................

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Torby



For reasons lost to antiquity, 1:29 is commonly used for standard gauge, which would actually be 51 inch "standard" gauge.

Torby,

It isn't such ancient history and if you go straight to the source you can discover just how clever 1:29 is. http://www.aristocraft.com/articles/scale%20vs%20gauge/

It is possible that one or two of us differ on just how clever that was, but it makes for interesting reading!

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Karl Reichenbach

Kevin,

As usual a very well thought out response from a very knowledable person.

Karl

Hi Karl,

Rewriting history doesn't necessarily reflect history more accurately!. But I admit there are plenty who try very hard at it!

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kstrong

And now, the rest of the story...

Historically, "G" scale has been recognized as 1:22.5. LGB coined that designation in the late 60s when they introduced their line of indoor/outdoor trains designed to run on #1 gauge track. "G" stood for Garten, the german word for garden--identifying the unique aspect of these trains--they were designed to be run outdoors.

Historically 1:22.5 has been designated as "Spur 2" (#2 Gauge) and far from LGB coming up with the designation it was Märklin who established the Standards in the early 1900s. According to my calculation 1968 happened somewhat later. [;)][:)]
When LGB introduced their very first engine - the Stainz - they had a scale/gauge discrepancy. Believe it or not the Stainz and its Austrian sister run on 750mm track, which if it's 1:22.5 scale would result in 33.3mm track (32mm according to NEM-MOROP). BTW 1:22.5 Standard Gauge scales out to 64mm (again NEM).
Of course none of this matters to those who try to rewrite history, but it is worth mentioning every so often! [;)][}:)][;)][:)][:)]

[TonyWalsham]

Tom,
There is no such thing as "G" gauge.
No matter how much LGB would like to "re-invent" the wheel. So to speak.

45 mm gauge is, and always has been, # 1 gauge.

I can live with the term "G" scale as an all encompassing generic term to describe the myriad of scales that run on # 1 gauge track.
I would much prefer, and humbly suggest, that as there is actually a "G" scale, 1:22.5 ratio, which LGB purport to use for some of their excellent toys, perhaps it would be better to use the term Large Scale (LS) instead.

[Anonymous]

Thank You to all who responded. I want to start out on the right track,(ha, ha), and your responces are more than helpful. I'm going to take pictures of the progress and will post them somewhere so all can see. Thanks alot guys, It's nice to see so many helpful people out there.
Henry

[Karl Reichenbach]

Kevin,

As usual a very well thought out response from a very knowledable person.

Karl

[Curmudgeon]

The term, Kevin, is as "invented", and it's "G" gauge.

If the purported inventors of the gauge wanted to call it thus, it's "Suitable for Large Scale".

We know it's scale.

Like 1:20.
It's "easy", not the 1:20.348297642........

You must have missed the expert dissertation on how these folks "invented" the gauge.....

[Anonymous]

I'm pretty new to this too and wound up in 1:29 scale by accident. Santa brought me my first loco, a USA 4-6-2 Hudson. I wanted a 'full' size 1930-ish mainline steam engine and that's the scale it was manufactured in. Most of the post 1920 rolling stock made by Aristo, USA and several others is 1:29 also, so I've got a 'match'. Most mainline diesel locomotives are also 1:29. Last, the track I bought, AMS code 250 flex track is 1:32 which is looks much more in scale than the Aristo, LGB or USA code 332 track.

Structures are another matter as most built-ups and kits are 1:24. However, most are also turn of the last century models, so the fact that they have higher doors kinda fits anyway, as prototypes from that era did too. I can scratch build others in 1:29 if I want.

I think if mining and shortline GRR is to your liking, then the 'larger' scales like 1:20, 1:24, etc might be where to look. I like running mainline trains, so 1:29 is pretty much it, IME. MTH makes fine 1:32 mainline equipment, but it's not as plentiful, IME as 1:29. From what I've been able to tell so far, anyway. [;)]

I think when you figure out which type of loco and train system you'd like to model, the scale thing will probably take care of itself automagically. [:D] Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[kstrong]

And now, the rest of the story...

Historically, "G" scale has been recognized as 1:22.5. LGB coined that designation in the late 60s when they introduced their line of indoor/outdoor trains designed to run on #1 gauge track. "G" stood for Garten, the german word for garden--identifying the unique aspect of these trains--they were designed to be run outdoors.

LGB chose that scale because the models they started offering were meter gauge prototypes, and when they took the long-established "#1" track gauge of 45mm and did the math, they got 1:22.5. There was already a substantial crowd in Europe modeling trains in #1 scale (1:32)--including folks running trains outdoors--so the choice to create narrow gauge models to run on the same track was natural. This is not too unlike Bachmann's decision to make On30 models, which run on HO gauge track--build something new for something many folks already have.

Unlike Europe, which had a rich, long history with #1 scale, it was virtually unknown in the US. LGB's "G-scale" was the first indoctrination into outdoor railroads that most in this country had ever received. While there were #1 scale models being made, they were mostly expensive brass locos, which had very little mass appeal.

Other manufacturers started entering the playing field. The first was Kalamazoo (whose product line is now largely manufacturered by Hartland). These trains were marketed as "compatible" with LGB, though to stick a specific scale to them is difficult. Common perception put them at 1:24, which measures out to 1/2" to the foot--something us imperial Americans could finally relate to. Delton followed shortly thereafter with a line of much more scale faithful models built to 1:24. Neither of these companies specifically advertised their products as "G-scale." Kalamazoo advertised them as "#1 gauge" trains, referencing the gauge of the track they ran on--not the scale of the models themselves. Delton marketed their trains as "1/2-inch scale." (Most of Delton's models are now made by Aristocraft, under the "Classics" label.)

All this occurred in the mid 1980s, 15 years after LGB first introduced their first trains. By this time, LGB's "G is for Garden" marketing had paid off, and anything designed to be run in the garden was generically referred to as "G-scale"--regardless of what the actual scale of the model was. The "Kleenex" syndrome had taken root in the garden. "G-scale" was now a generic term, though its origin was brand specific.

The waters became muddier when REA (now Aristocraft) introduced a line of standard-gauge prototypes designed to be run on the same #1 gauge track. They wanted to bring standard gauge models to the mass marketplace. There had been a few attempts to popularize #1 scale in the garden, but the models were visually smaller than those from LGB, Kalamazoo, and others, so the efforts fizzled rather quickly. REA recognized this failing, so they took a different path. They made their trains visually compatible with what was already available from LGB, Delton, and Kalamazoo, choosing the "1:29" scale ratio for their models.

Absent from all of these new products was any attempt to label their products to a specific standard. Everyone seemed to be continuing to lump all these trains under the now largely generic "G-scale" umbrella with no attempt to clarify anything to the consumer. All was visually compatible, and the consumer seemed to be quite happy.

We Americans seem to be linguistically lazy, and use the words "scale" and "gauge" synonymously (though they are two completely different concepts). As such, "G-gauge" became as generic a term as "G-scale," referring to anything designed to be run outdoors in a garden railway setting.

Today, the waters are made even muddier by the recent popularization of true #1 scale models by Accucraft and MTH, and the emergence of 1:20.3 as the standard for modeling american narrow gauge models on #1 gauge track.

In truth, the generic application of "G-scale" has done exactly what it was supposed to do; lump everything designed to run on rails 45mm apart under one large umbrella. Unfortunately, the hobby has outgrown that need, and the mixture of scales now seems to cry out for some kind of separation under that large umbrella.

Now as for "true" scale, it all depends on what you want to model on #1 gauge track...

1:32 - accurate for modeling north american and most european standard gauge trains

1:29 - not accurate for standard gauge, but the current de-facto scale supported by most major manufacturers.

1:24 - accurate for modeling 42" gauge trains, such as the Newfoundland RR

1:22.5 - accurate for modeling meter gauge trains

1:20.3 - accurate for modeling 3' gauge trains. (the most common US narrow gauge)

1:13.7 - accurate for modeling 2' gauge railways.

-------
1:19.1 - commonly called "16mm" scale, this is widely popular in the UK for modeling 2' gauge trains on "O" gauge (32mm) track.

Anything from 1:29 to 1:22.5 tends to be visually compatible in terms of size and proportion, so many folks buy what appeals to them and run it without a second thought to "accuracy." A vast majority of garden railroaders fall into this camp, which is a very liberating way to enjoy the hobby. If exact scale accuracy isn't important, then who cares about scale?

When you get into 1:32 or 1:20.3, you'll notice that the models start to look noticeably larger or smaller than their middle-of-the-road counterparts. Most folks who commit to these scales do so with specific intention, and model only within that specific scale. the other scales become irrelevant beyond potential kitbash fodder. It, too, is a very liberating way of enjoying the hobby. As much as I may like a certain model, if it's not the right scale, I have far less desire to buy it. Trips to the hobby shop are far easier on the wallet in that regard.

Later,

K

[Capt Bob Johnson]

My answer to all this confusion is "Tommyrot!"

Give a bit of thought about what you want to model on your railroad, then look at the catalogs from the various manufacturers to see which best suits your desires; that's the one you go with.

That approach raises you above the fray, and lets you take the It's my railroad and I'll do what I bloody well please attitude.

In many ways HJ is correct about elastic scale requirements, and although I didn't realize what I didn't like about those products, I just knew that they didn't look right to me! He put it into words.

The bottom line is suit yourself, go look at the stuff and compare it, then make a determination about what you are going to buy.

[Tom The Brat]

"G" is a gauge, not a scale. The scale depends on what the 45mm gauge represents on your prototype.

2ft narrow gauge: 1:13
3ft narrow gauge: 1:20.3
1 meter narrow gauge: 1:22
56 1/2 inch standard gauge: 1:32

For reasons lost to antiquity, 1:29 is commonly used for standard gauge, which would actually be 51 inch "standard" gauge.

A problem and mess of scales? Look at it this way. I model a Standard Gauge shortline with 1:29. My friend Ric models a narrow gauge railroad. When I go to visit him, anything I bring will run nicely on his track. They even look reasonable together. Of course, one of my favorite locos happens to be a Bachmann "Annie," which is a 1:22 model of a small narrow gauge loco. It's quite at home with my 1:29th rolling stock, just represents a larger loco.

[Curmudgeon]

ah, you mean "G"eneric scale?

"Suitable for large scale"

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Highwayhenry

I'm just entering the world of G Scale Railroading. 1:29 or 1:32 Which one is the closest to true G Scale. Or is there any such thing? I see at my local hobby shop that Aristo-Craft boxes say 1:29, MTH boxes say 1:32. What's the deal, I'm confused, I want to start out as close to scale as possible.
Henry

Henry,

Not withstanding what NMRA specifies IMHO there is no such thing as "G" scale.
There is a multitude of scales that run on 45mm track and thanks to clever marketing in all gets bundled as "G Scale"! But it actually runs the gamut from 1:13 through 1:29.
It will all depend on which mfg you believe or who shouts the loudest "we are the best".

If on the other hand you're looking for Standard Gauge (4ft 8.5") items running on 45mm track the proper scale is 1:32.
If you're looking for 3ft Narrow Gauge running on 45mm track the scale is 1:20.3
The rest is somewhere in between and if you want to know what scale it is, you can either ask the mfg and hope for an honest and precise answer OR you can measure the item and figure out what scale it is. And don't expect that the track gauge will match the scale!!!!!!!!!!

Word of caution: some mfgs quite happily mix a multitude of scales in one model. Some of those mfgs term that: "Adjustments for pleasant appearance" or something similarly creative. [;)][;)][;)]

Of course if they get challenged on the "Goofy scale" they get downright "G"rumpy about it. [;)][:)][:D][:D]

PS By far the most fun can be had looking for structures, figures, road vehicles and similar accessories for "G Scale". [;)][}:)][;)][:)]

[Anonymous]

I'm just entering the world of G Scale Railroading starting from scratch. I do have a large back yard so I'm ok there. I'm confused about a few things. 1:29 or 1:32 Which one is the closest to true G Scale. Since I'm on the subject, Is it called Standard Gauge, or #1 Gauge, or G Scale. Or is there any such thing? I see at my local hobby shop that Aristo-Craft boxes say 1:29, MTH boxes say 1:32. What's the deal, I'm confused, I want to start out as close to scale as possible.
Henry