G Scale - Which one is it!

[Anonymous]

I'm just entering the world of G Scale Railroading starting from scratch. I do have a large back yard so I'm ok there. I'm confused about a few things. 1:29 or 1:32 Which one is the closest to true G Scale. Since I'm on the subject, Is it called Standard Gauge, or #1 Gauge, or G Scale. Or is there any such thing? I see at my local hobby shop that Aristo-Craft boxes say 1:29, MTH boxes say 1:32. What's the deal, I'm confused, I want to start out as close to scale as possible.
Henry

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Highwayhenry

I'm just entering the world of G Scale Railroading. 1:29 or 1:32 Which one is the closest to true G Scale. Or is there any such thing? I see at my local hobby shop that Aristo-Craft boxes say 1:29, MTH boxes say 1:32. What's the deal, I'm confused, I want to start out as close to scale as possible.
Henry

Henry,

Not withstanding what NMRA specifies IMHO there is no such thing as "G" scale.
There is a multitude of scales that run on 45mm track and thanks to clever marketing in all gets bundled as "G Scale"! But it actually runs the gamut from 1:13 through 1:29.
It will all depend on which mfg you believe or who shouts the loudest "we are the best".

If on the other hand you're looking for Standard Gauge (4ft 8.5") items running on 45mm track the proper scale is 1:32.
If you're looking for 3ft Narrow Gauge running on 45mm track the scale is 1:20.3
The rest is somewhere in between and if you want to know what scale it is, you can either ask the mfg and hope for an honest and precise answer OR you can measure the item and figure out what scale it is. And don't expect that the track gauge will match the scale!!!!!!!!!!

Word of caution: some mfgs quite happily mix a multitude of scales in one model. Some of those mfgs term that: "Adjustments for pleasant appearance" or something similarly creative. [;)][;)][;)]

Of course if they get challenged on the "Goofy scale" they get downright "G"rumpy about it. [;)][:)][:D][:D]

PS By far the most fun can be had looking for structures, figures, road vehicles and similar accessories for "G Scale". [;)][}:)][;)][:)]

[Curmudgeon]

ah, you mean "G"eneric scale?

"Suitable for large scale"

[Tom The Brat]

"G" is a gauge, not a scale. The scale depends on what the 45mm gauge represents on your prototype.

2ft narrow gauge: 1:13
3ft narrow gauge: 1:20.3
1 meter narrow gauge: 1:22
56 1/2 inch standard gauge: 1:32

For reasons lost to antiquity, 1:29 is commonly used for standard gauge, which would actually be 51 inch "standard" gauge.

A problem and mess of scales? Look at it this way. I model a Standard Gauge shortline with 1:29. My friend Ric models a narrow gauge railroad. When I go to visit him, anything I bring will run nicely on his track. They even look reasonable together. Of course, one of my favorite locos happens to be a Bachmann "Annie," which is a 1:22 model of a small narrow gauge loco. It's quite at home with my 1:29th rolling stock, just represents a larger loco.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

My answer to all this confusion is "Tommyrot!"

Give a bit of thought about what you want to model on your railroad, then look at the catalogs from the various manufacturers to see which best suits your desires; that's the one you go with.

That approach raises you above the fray, and lets you take the It's my railroad and I'll do what I bloody well please attitude.

In many ways HJ is correct about elastic scale requirements, and although I didn't realize what I didn't like about those products, I just knew that they didn't look right to me! He put it into words.

The bottom line is suit yourself, go look at the stuff and compare it, then make a determination about what you are going to buy.

[kstrong]

And now, the rest of the story...

Historically, "G" scale has been recognized as 1:22.5. LGB coined that designation in the late 60s when they introduced their line of indoor/outdoor trains designed to run on #1 gauge track. "G" stood for Garten, the german word for garden--identifying the unique aspect of these trains--they were designed to be run outdoors.

LGB chose that scale because the models they started offering were meter gauge prototypes, and when they took the long-established "#1" track gauge of 45mm and did the math, they got 1:22.5. There was already a substantial crowd in Europe modeling trains in #1 scale (1:32)--including folks running trains outdoors--so the choice to create narrow gauge models to run on the same track was natural. This is not too unlike Bachmann's decision to make On30 models, which run on HO gauge track--build something new for something many folks already have.

Unlike Europe, which had a rich, long history with #1 scale, it was virtually unknown in the US. LGB's "G-scale" was the first indoctrination into outdoor railroads that most in this country had ever received. While there were #1 scale models being made, they were mostly expensive brass locos, which had very little mass appeal.

Other manufacturers started entering the playing field. The first was Kalamazoo (whose product line is now largely manufacturered by Hartland). These trains were marketed as "compatible" with LGB, though to stick a specific scale to them is difficult. Common perception put them at 1:24, which measures out to 1/2" to the foot--something us imperial Americans could finally relate to. Delton followed shortly thereafter with a line of much more scale faithful models built to 1:24. Neither of these companies specifically advertised their products as "G-scale." Kalamazoo advertised them as "#1 gauge" trains, referencing the gauge of the track they ran on--not the scale of the models themselves. Delton marketed their trains as "1/2-inch scale." (Most of Delton's models are now made by Aristocraft, under the "Classics" label.)

All this occurred in the mid 1980s, 15 years after LGB first introduced their first trains. By this time, LGB's "G is for Garden" marketing had paid off, and anything designed to be run in the garden was generically referred to as "G-scale"--regardless of what the actual scale of the model was. The "Kleenex" syndrome had taken root in the garden. "G-scale" was now a generic term, though its origin was brand specific.

The waters became muddier when REA (now Aristocraft) introduced a line of standard-gauge prototypes designed to be run on the same #1 gauge track. They wanted to bring standard gauge models to the mass marketplace. There had been a few attempts to popularize #1 scale in the garden, but the models were visually smaller than those from LGB, Kalamazoo, and others, so the efforts fizzled rather quickly. REA recognized this failing, so they took a different path. They made their trains visually compatible with what was already available from LGB, Delton, and Kalamazoo, choosing the "1:29" scale ratio for their models.

Absent from all of these new products was any attempt to label their products to a specific standard. Everyone seemed to be continuing to lump all these trains under the now largely generic "G-scale" umbrella with no attempt to clarify anything to the consumer. All was visually compatible, and the consumer seemed to be quite happy.

We Americans seem to be linguistically lazy, and use the words "scale" and "gauge" synonymously (though they are two completely different concepts). As such, "G-gauge" became as generic a term as "G-scale," referring to anything designed to be run outdoors in a garden railway setting.

Today, the waters are made even muddier by the recent popularization of true #1 scale models by Accucraft and MTH, and the emergence of 1:20.3 as the standard for modeling american narrow gauge models on #1 gauge track.

In truth, the generic application of "G-scale" has done exactly what it was supposed to do; lump everything designed to run on rails 45mm apart under one large umbrella. Unfortunately, the hobby has outgrown that need, and the mixture of scales now seems to cry out for some kind of separation under that large umbrella.

Now as for "true" scale, it all depends on what you want to model on #1 gauge track...

1:32 - accurate for modeling north american and most european standard gauge trains

1:29 - not accurate for standard gauge, but the current de-facto scale supported by most major manufacturers.

1:24 - accurate for modeling 42" gauge trains, such as the Newfoundland RR

1:22.5 - accurate for modeling meter gauge trains

1:20.3 - accurate for modeling 3' gauge trains. (the most common US narrow gauge)

1:13.7 - accurate for modeling 2' gauge railways.

-------
1:19.1 - commonly called "16mm" scale, this is widely popular in the UK for modeling 2' gauge trains on "O" gauge (32mm) track.

Anything from 1:29 to 1:22.5 tends to be visually compatible in terms of size and proportion, so many folks buy what appeals to them and run it without a second thought to "accuracy." A vast majority of garden railroaders fall into this camp, which is a very liberating way to enjoy the hobby. If exact scale accuracy isn't important, then who cares about scale?

When you get into 1:32 or 1:20.3, you'll notice that the models start to look noticeably larger or smaller than their middle-of-the-road counterparts. Most folks who commit to these scales do so with specific intention, and model only within that specific scale. the other scales become irrelevant beyond potential kitbash fodder. It, too, is a very liberating way of enjoying the hobby. As much as I may like a certain model, if it's not the right scale, I have far less desire to buy it. Trips to the hobby shop are far easier on the wallet in that regard.

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

I'm pretty new to this too and wound up in 1:29 scale by accident. Santa brought me my first loco, a USA 4-6-2 Hudson. I wanted a 'full' size 1930-ish mainline steam engine and that's the scale it was manufactured in. Most of the post 1920 rolling stock made by Aristo, USA and several others is 1:29 also, so I've got a 'match'. Most mainline diesel locomotives are also 1:29. Last, the track I bought, AMS code 250 flex track is 1:32 which is looks much more in scale than the Aristo, LGB or USA code 332 track.

Structures are another matter as most built-ups and kits are 1:24. However, most are also turn of the last century models, so the fact that they have higher doors kinda fits anyway, as prototypes from that era did too. I can scratch build others in 1:29 if I want.

I think if mining and shortline GRR is to your liking, then the 'larger' scales like 1:20, 1:24, etc might be where to look. I like running mainline trains, so 1:29 is pretty much it, IME. MTH makes fine 1:32 mainline equipment, but it's not as plentiful, IME as 1:29. From what I've been able to tell so far, anyway. [;)]

I think when you figure out which type of loco and train system you'd like to model, the scale thing will probably take care of itself automagically. [:D] Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[Curmudgeon]

The term, Kevin, is as "invented", and it's "G" gauge.

If the purported inventors of the gauge wanted to call it thus, it's "Suitable for Large Scale".

We know it's scale.

Like 1:20.
It's "easy", not the 1:20.348297642........

You must have missed the expert dissertation on how these folks "invented" the gauge.....

[Karl Reichenbach]

Kevin,

As usual a very well thought out response from a very knowledable person.

Karl

[Anonymous]

Thank You to all who responded. I want to start out on the right track,(ha, ha), and your responces are more than helpful. I'm going to take pictures of the progress and will post them somewhere so all can see. Thanks alot guys, It's nice to see so many helpful people out there.
Henry

[TonyWalsham]

Tom,
There is no such thing as "G" gauge.
No matter how much LGB would like to "re-invent" the wheel. So to speak.

45 mm gauge is, and always has been, # 1 gauge.

I can live with the term "G" scale as an all encompassing generic term to describe the myriad of scales that run on # 1 gauge track.
I would much prefer, and humbly suggest, that as there is actually a "G" scale, 1:22.5 ratio, which LGB purport to use for some of their excellent toys, perhaps it would be better to use the term Large Scale (LS) instead.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kstrong

And now, the rest of the story...

Historically, "G" scale has been recognized as 1:22.5. LGB coined that designation in the late 60s when they introduced their line of indoor/outdoor trains designed to run on #1 gauge track. "G" stood for Garten, the german word for garden--identifying the unique aspect of these trains--they were designed to be run outdoors.

Historically 1:22.5 has been designated as "Spur 2" (#2 Gauge) and far from LGB coming up with the designation it was Märklin who established the Standards in the early 1900s. According to my calculation 1968 happened somewhat later. [;)][:)]
When LGB introduced their very first engine - the Stainz - they had a scale/gauge discrepancy. Believe it or not the Stainz and its Austrian sister run on 750mm track, which if it's 1:22.5 scale would result in 33.3mm track (32mm according to NEM-MOROP). BTW 1:22.5 Standard Gauge scales out to 64mm (again NEM).
Of course none of this matters to those who try to rewrite history, but it is worth mentioning every so often! [;)][}:)][;)][:)][:)]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Karl Reichenbach

Kevin,

As usual a very well thought out response from a very knowledable person.

Karl

Hi Karl,

Rewriting history doesn't necessarily reflect history more accurately!. But I admit there are plenty who try very hard at it!

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Torby



For reasons lost to antiquity, 1:29 is commonly used for standard gauge, which would actually be 51 inch "standard" gauge.

Torby,

It isn't such ancient history and if you go straight to the source you can discover just how clever 1:29 is. http://www.aristocraft.com/articles/scale%20vs%20gauge/

It is possible that one or two of us differ on just how clever that was, but it makes for interesting reading!

[tangerine-jack]

"G"-umby scale. Does that sum it up? If you notice, there are very few accurate scale modelers in the G realm, most of us really don't care a lot about that sort of thing and prefer a little whimsey in what we do. I for one don't give a rip about what scale something is so long as it "looks" right when on the track and chugging past the full sized plants.

But to each his own..........................................

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack

"G"-umby scale. Does that sum it up? If you notice, there are very few accurate scale modelers in the G realm, most of us really don't care a lot about that sort of thing and prefer a little whimsey in what we do. I for one don't give a rip about what scale something is so long as it "looks" right when on the track and chugging past the full sized plants.

But to each his own..........................................

TJ

No problem, but Henry wrote

QUOTE: I'm just entering the world of G Scale Railroading. 1:29 or 1:32 Which one is the closest to true G Scale. Or is there any such thing? I see at my local hobby shop that Aristo-Craft boxes say 1:29, MTH boxes say 1:32. What's the deal, I'm confused, I want to start out as close to scale as possible.
Henry

A bit more of the "background" doesn't hurt, [;)][:)][:)] and there is plenty more to "Large Scale" than running trains around the "fishy pond" and "tip-toeing through the tulips". [;)][:)][:D][:D]
BTW at least most of the NA Large Scale mfgs state what scale their items are supposed to be. Unlike the "Inventors of G", who much rather leave the consumer guessing.

[Curmudgeon]

Wait a minute........they do tell ya!

"Suitable for Large Scale"

[tangerine-jack]

HJ,
No arguement from me on that one. I see a lot of smaller scale modelers get very confused when switching to "G"arden scale so I was just trying to put a little focus on the fact that a majority of us don't care about "accurate scale", just "correct proportion"- which is why the manufacturers respond by making what they make. It's a philosophy difference.

[Steve Stockham]

Scale/Gauge........ah, the great debate! It has been and should always be #1 Gauge when referring to 45mm track!!!!! As to the scale, it's in flux! It is what we think it is and I defy anyone to tell us differently! [}:)][;)]

[kimbrit]

Here we go again!! It's in the garden, it's 12" to 1' and it's in the eye of the beholder as to whether it's right or not. If you want small trees to scale the layout then so be it. If you leave everything at 12" to 1' then again, so be it. It's your railway, it can be whatever you want it to be but in the end it's a model railway that happens to be in a garden. Enjoy!
Kim

[Anonymous]

1:22.5 ratio running on 45mm gauge track. Any other ratio running on the same gauge track could, quite reasonably, be referred to as "Large Scale". This is what most of us do here in Australia, in sturdy defiance of many colleagues who run models on track of wider gauges ( 2&1/2inches, 3&1/2 inches, 5 inches & 7&1/4 inches. all of which are common in this country) to varying ratios, most of which are as inaccurate as 1:29 on 45mm gauge track! The ratio 1:24 ("half inch scale") is reasonably correct for 2&1/2 gauge, which is the original Number 3 "Gauge" dating back to the early 1900s. This, basically, is the "scale" with which LGB started when they set about developing models to run on 45mm gauge track, representing metre gauge (and similar) prototypes. The arithmatic involved led to their adoption of a ratio of 1:22.5. One forum member related this, incorrectly, to Number 2 Gauge, which is 2 inches and is now, to all intents, extinct. Work the arithmatic backwards and you will see the relation between the "scales" so widely used for 1435mm "Standard" Gauge protoptypes and 900mm "Metre" Gauge prototypes on 2&1/2 inch and 45mm Gauges respectively. Again, turning to the dichotomy between 1:32 & 1:29 ratios, if you work the arithmatic back very carefully, you will see that neither is strictly accurate, despite commonly held dogma! As I model American prototype Standard Gauge, I prefer the latter, because it's more readily available in Australia! Having made that decision, I must stick with it. Conversely, we tend to refer to live steam models running on 45mm and smaller gauges as "Small Scale live steam"! Neil

,

[Anonymous]

Let me add an afterthought to my earlier diatribe. The Europeans have it right - they call the ratio/gauge relationship 1:22.5 on 45mm gauge 3M, about which we argue as to whether or not we are justified in talking about G Scale. The figure 3 refers, quite reasonably, to the fundamental "scale" and the letter M to the prototype gauge represented. Nothing more is needed! Neil.

[tangerine-jack]

[sigh] This is exactly why I don't care about that sort of thing, I have enough headaches at work that I certainly don't need any in my hobbies. I agree with Kim (in his "camp" so to speak), the scenery in an outdoor model railroad is, and always will be 1:1, making all other attempts at enforcing scale accuracy an uphill struggle. Yes, I fully understand what the "other camp" is saying about scale accuracy within the model itself, and I encourage and support that aspect of the hobby if that is what you like to do, but as I stated earlier it's a philosophy difference when you get to large outdoor scales.

A compromise has to exist between a faithful model reproduction of a train in miniature and that big Oak leaf laying across the track, physics of a rainstorm, heat cold, animals etc. all of which cannot be ignored. I choose to ignore the illogic of miniature scale and prefer to focus on the realities of the real world environment and in overcoming the challenges that lie in building and running an outdoor railroad. I understand what HJ was getting at, and yes a large scale outdoor railroad can (and should be) be more than a circle of track running around the flowers, but it is possible, and quite common, to have a very nice operational miniature outdoor railroad without giving a nod to scale fidelity.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by enarah

Let me add an afterthought to my earlier diatribe. The Europeans have it right - they call the ratio/gauge relationship 1:22.5 on 45mm gauge 3M, about which we argue as to whether or not we are justified in talking about G Scale. The figure 3 refers, quite reasonably, to the fundamental "scale" and the letter M to the prototype gauge represented. Nothing more is needed! Neil.

Hi Neil,

According to NEM-MOROP Meter Gauge on 45mm track is referred to as 2m. http://www.morop.org/en/normes/nem010_en.pdf

Let's not introduce even more confusion than there is already!!

[kstrong]

HJ,

I wish I still had it at my fingertips; the early (c. mid 70s) LGB catalog which had a chart of all the scales. They clearly defined "#1 scale" as 1:32 on 45mm track, "G-scale" as 1:22.5 on 45mm track. I don't remember if was that same chart, or another similar chart that listed scale 3 as 1:22.6 with a 64mm track gauge, right next to "G-scale" at 1:22.5 with its 45mm gauge. I recall thinking how similar those two scales were, but noting they had separate designations--one standard gauge, one narrow gauge.

Early LGB charts also showed HO and HOe (the european HO narrow gauge), so LGB knew the standard for describing narrow gauge versions of an existing scale. However, they chose to create their own designation for their scale, regardless of past practices. It was marketing, pure and simple, and quite effective. It's interesting to note that in the US, advertisers were originally calling it "K" scale for "King Size."

I remember wondering what happened to "#2 scale", but was reminded by this footnote in the material HJ referenced:
"Previously, Gauge II indicated 1:27 ratio models and 51 mm gauge track; this ratio and gauge is no longer common."

I went digging in search of other references to the early "gauge 2." One early model railroad reference at my fingertips refers to gauges 1, 2, and 3, with gauge 3 being 2 1/2"--equivalent to 64mm. (Contrary to the MOROP standards HJ references which refer to this as gauge 2, many in the UK and the US still refer to this track gauge as "gauge 3.")

But I do agree with HJ on one thing--the curiosity of LGB choosing 45mm as a gauge, equating it to meter gauge, then choosing as their first offerings models which weren't meter gauge prototypes. I still haven't figured that one out, but at least we can say with profound accuracy that LGB has never given a fig about a correct scale/gauge combination. They just build good-running trains.

Later,

K

[Curmudgeon]

"But I do agree with HJ on one thing--the curiosity of LGB choosing 45mm as a gauge, equating it to meter gauge, then choosing as their first offerings models which weren't meter gauge prototypes. I still haven't figured that one out, but at least we can say with profound accuracy that LGB has never given a fig about a correct scale/gauge combination. They just build good-running trains.

Later,

K"


Ah, Kevin, I'm so glad you said that and not me.......

[Anonymous]

Ah...the age old debate begins anew.

When will me make and end...I have long ago come to terms with all these issues.

VIVA LARGE SCALE....my the "Gs" never mean $1000 forever!

Major Carrales

[Capt Bob Johnson]

I note that someone got promoted, boy that changes a lot of the terminoligh around here, Sir! Of Course I don't think that a flying Major quite equates to a 4 striper! (Just had to give it a twist while it was in there!)

Congradulations

[Anonymous]

Thanks...I was promoted officially as of 21 Feb 2006.

I was then informed by SSgt Shaw, our chief non-com, that every Major he knew was "kinda lost."

In anycase, the promotion came with the additional staff positions...Testing Officer and Professional Development officer along with unit Public Affairs Officer until which time there are new officers to take those staff positions.

As for ranks...you are still two ahead of me. Major is equal to "Lt. Commander" (at least that's hat it is on Star Trek) I did get a special honor...I was given a new cap by my wife that has CLOUDS and DARTS on the visor.

We have alot in the works with CAP in Corpus Christi...A major Exercise in Victoria, Texas the weekend of 10-12 March 2006, A Squadron Leadership School to plan for the Summer and all sorts of things inbeween.

I will have to work on trains in between all of that... we ordered some new track and I plan to install a few more feet this week. We are also ordering what my daughter refers to as the "PEE-Budie Hupper""

[RhB_HJ]

Hi all,

Well, hmmmmmmmmm, errrrrrrrrr..........

OK so some of us agree that LGB apparently doesn't give a fig about scale as a clearly defined concept.

As regards the English version of the NEM Standard 010, the operative provisio is

QUOTE: © by MOROP #8211; Reproduction permitted, also in parts, furnish sample copies to the General Secretary
This Engli***ranslation is not authoritative and is provided as a courtesy only.
Only the French and German versions of the norms are original source documents.

Of course there is no mention of "Previously, Gauge II indicated 1:27 ratio models and 51 mm gauge track; this ratio and gauge is no longer common." in the source document in either German or French!

Having a fairly good idea how these translations come about, my guess would be that someone added that "for good measure" in order to tie the British standards to the NEM Standards in at least a tentative manner. [;)][}:)][;)]

As I mention once in a while, I'm a relative newbie in Large Scale and for that reason the earliest LGB catalogue in my "collection" dates from 1997. On pages 4 and 5 there is a very graphic illustration and below the very large Stainz, or whatever it is supposed to be, are the following notes:

QUOTE: Die Lehmann-Gross-Bahn LGB
Baugrösse G (IIm) Scale name: G (IIm)
Maßstab 1:22,5 Scale: 1:22.5
Spurweite 45mm Gauge (track width): 45mm
Für drinnen und draussen For indoors and outdoors

BTW for the scale designation one can either use standard numbers or the Roman variety, in other words if it's IIm or 2m the scale remains the same 1:22.5

Yes, Kevin is absolutely right: "G Scale" and/or "G Gauge" is nothing but a marketing gimmick.

Of course I haven't mentioned the real kicker yet, but ..........
despite the general acceptance/resignation of/to the fact that 1:29 scale is the de facto standard to represent 56.6" gauge on 45mm track (at least in NA); LGB in their wisdom have decided that since European equipment is generally smaller than the NA variety, they will adhere to a scale of ca. 1:27 for their Standard Gauge items "modeled" on Euro prototypes. [B)][B)][B)]

And I'm reasonably certain that isn't "end of story" yet and I'm waiting with bated breath what crazy scale it will be when they decide to enter the UK market in order to compete with the funky Class 66 that Aristo announced.
As the saying goes "There will be something for everyone" including every scale you can possibly imagine. All of them "Suitable for Large Scale" and running on 45mm track. [;)][:)][:)][:D]