Possible Convert to G - Starting From Scratch

[brochhau]

Hey all,

I recently turned 30, and bought my first house about a year ago. When I was a kid, I modeled HO scale in our basement, most of which I still have, although it is mostly old Tyco "toy" stuff that I was not planning on using anyway. I have about a 25'x20' area to work with in my basement, and immediately thought of starting from scratch in HO.

Then... Trainfest, where I saw the G scale trains of the G-Whiz Gang (http://members.aol.com/gwhizgang/) and loved what I saw. The huge pistons on the Shay, the "large" people, and the "large" buildings...

Up to now I had not invested too much in my new HO layout, less than $200, mostly turnouts and flextrack. But now I am considering a switch to an indoor G scale layout. One thing that made me consider the switch is the price difference between high quality HO locos and high quality G locos -- there really isn't any. So for close to the same price, or maybe a few bucks more, I can get a loco that is 4x bigger? Tempting...

Downsides - The only G scale equipment I own is a Bachmann Big Hauler set that I got in the early 90s, so I would essentially be starting from scratch. I have never built a G scale layout, nor do I know anyone that has one.

I don't really have a question. But now I'm on the fence of either continuing with the little I have done in HO, or starting over in G. I'm just looking for help in pushing me to one side of the fence or the other. Pros / cons?

Thanks for any advice!
Scott

[vsmith]

Welcome to the forum Scott

1st question: How big an area do you have to work with? My bad I just re-read your post ....Large Scale eats up a tremendous amount of space just to do something simple, so keep that in mind.

I have an indoor large scale layout thats 8' x 20' and its what I consider a simple plan. I'll post a link so you can see some of the variation I went thru planning it. Your area is a big more generous, thats a big plus!

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16963

[Tom The Brat]

Welcome to the outdoors! What kind of space do you have?

(Actually, I have a lot of room to talk. I don't have an outside[:-,])

[brochhau]

I was planning an indoor layout. I will have at least 20'x25' to work with. More if I need it, but I thought that would be plenty to handle to start out with.

Scott

[markperr]

Scott,

Is there a particular reason that you wi***o model indoors? There are a number of reasons, I know, but I'm curious.

One of the reasons that I got into this scale was because I could run it outdoors and that left me all kinds of realistic possibilities from real world weathering (real sun, real rain, real dirt, real winter) to dealing with the elements as well as sharing my hobby with the neighbors. They love coming over to see what i'm doing next, especially the kids. These trains are extremely durable and are designed to run outdoors in all kinds of weather. Many folks here in the north actually put real plows on the fronts of their locos and run in the winter, clearing snow from their lines.

You can also add real rock, real running water, real plants, etc. Not to mention, you get to expand your woodworking, and metal working, and landscaping talents among other things.

If you have as much room in your yard as you do inside, you may find that you like working outside much better, especially since you're only thirty.

Personally, I love the smell of fresh mulch, evergreen shrubs, and various flowers, not to mention the warm sun on my back as I work.

Here's a couple of pics from my own layout. The first one is from 2002 when I was just beginning to rebuild it.



This second one is from our annual haunted Halloween display.



Mark

[brochhau]

Good question, and great pictures. I guess the real reason I want to model indoors is because I have the space, and it allows for year-round operation here in Wisconsin. This past summer was awesome for being outdoors, but the previous summer ('04) was pathetic. I honestly haven't given too much thought into a layout in my backyard, but I suppose I should think about it. My backyard is relatively flat and there isn't much in the way of landscaping. In fact, that was going to be my spring project.

I don't know -- I guess another thing to think about. I see one good reason to go outdoors -- no runs to Home Depot for benchwork lumber!

You say you live in the north? Around what area? I'm just south of Milwaukee in Racine county. No snow on the ground, but I hear there is some coming this weekend.

Scott

[Anonymous]

A "really silly " suggestion..... Do both! Indoors and out. [:D] If your indoor area is next to the back yard, put in a trap door in a window and connect the two together. Run outside when the weather is tolerable, and inside when it's not. By connecting the two, you can just run the trains back inside when done outside, and you don't have to pick up the trains that way.

[piercedan]

A suggestion for you is even indoors, make your mainline have a 8 foot diameter curve minimum and you can run almost anything made for G scale. Outdoors, go even bigger if you can.

I have a small indoor area and 4 foot diameter curves, works ok, but I can not run the newer engines and long passenger cars that have come out in the last 4 years. I

[Capt Bob Johnson]

I'm sitting here reading this thread and thinking why hasn't somebody said "There's nothing wrong with doing G indoors, but why not connect to an outdoor layout too?" , when I finally get down to Turk's reply!

Either way, I hate to disillusion you, you're gonna be running ruts in the road to home depot or some like place either way you go! Ain't none of us getting any younger, think about somehow raising it so you aren't spending a lot of non praying time on your knees!

You don't say whether you are operating under the supervision of a current squeeze or a professional home technician (read Wife), but if they can be involved in the pretty posies department it would be a big plus in many ways! Not only that, but having a train going around a layout while you are hosting a BBQ or patio party is also a plus in being a focal point and conversation starter.

You also don't say anything about offspring or the possibilities of them, but kids love these things, and by the time they can understand what it's about, they can be great helpers! They won't tear things up as much as you think they would, cause once they like them and know how much work goes into them, they take care! My grandkids are great around my trains, even the 3 year old devil who can't visit without us running trains!

Personally, I wouldn't think twice about your decision; however, perhaps the deciding factor to me would be the extent of detail you want to get into. Are you more into running your trains, or are you into perfect modeling?? If the modeling is your bag, then I'd have to give the HO some serious thought for the simple reason that no matter which of the G guage scales you get into there are not a lot of accessories to be had on the market today. Scale cars, buildings, people, animals, and the like are quite plentiful in HO; but hard to find in G! Again, it's a matter of choice!

[tangerine-jack]

Bob, once again you stole my thoughts. I'm coming up there to see you with Vinny, Eugenio and "Slim". I don't like being robbed.

Anyway, what is the issue with the question again? Don't think about it, DO IT! Trust me, once you've tasted the sweetness of G, there will be no going back to the puny and insignificant HO scale. Do it inside or out, it doesn't matter which one you choose. Ebay off your HO stuff, take the money and buy some G scale. Again, what is the quandry?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! Do you really think you won't be going to Home Depot if you go outside?????? [(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D] You will find out very soon that Home Depot is in fact a cleaver disguise for a Garden Railroad Hobby Shop. When most of us refere to the LHS, we in fact mean HD or Lowes or the local garden center.

C'mon in! The water's fine! What u waiting for?????????????

[Tom The Brat]

A layout and storage yard in the basement, a switchback going up to a basement window to the wide world outside. Sounds like a plan to me!

[vsmith]

I wont ever say indoor is not right I dig my layout and look forward to finishing it once the 'unpleasantness' of rebuilding the garage is finished.

I'll chime in to this agian with an observation...if you just want to watch the trains run and run, you could do an outdoor layout or an indoor layout fairly easily. However if you thinking more along the operations route you have to make some descicions, some of which might be $$$ ones.

Indoors operations. This is FAR easier than outside, on mine I used simple Atlas HO track controllers to operate the block system. I also use a Basic Train Engineer to have hands free operation while keeping track power which makes sense indoors. All wiring is traditional and any book on HO layout wiring is DIRECTLY applicable to large scale G indoors.

Outdoors, take everything you knew about HO, toss into trash can. BIG pain in the %$^# to do anything close to traditional track power HO style block and switch control system outdoors. It CAN be done but everything has to be run underground, maybe conduited, and most importantly, waterproofed. I'm trying to figure out how to block control my outside layout and I'm dam near ready to forget it!

This is why R/C w/ on-board battery power is so popular with outdoor operations guys, multiple trains are a no brainer as long as your not mixing frequencies. However R/C comes with a stickershock entry fee! No disrespect to the R/C guys but that additional cost can be quite formidable for the already fiscally strapped modeler.

R/C w/ on-board battery also works indoors, the chief advantage is that the only thing you need to power are switch motors. The disadvantage is finding room onboard for the R/C gear and battery packs can be challanging as well as the costs.

Which leads to another option, indoors or out...DCC Digital Command and Control. This is essentailly a an R/C reciever installed on the engine that controls the power supply, its basically similar to the R/C/ battery set up only drawing power from the tracks. The chief advantage is that you can operate up to 10 trains at once without having to install any track wiring beyond the power connections. The chief drawback is that you need a big power supply and installing the reciever boards can also be quite challanging in some smaller locos and it can be $$.

From my observations if your planning a fairly large operations based layout indoors, I would consider DCC as running power to the tracks would be a simple affair, even on a large layout. If outdoors, R/C might be better option as there is ZERO track wiring involved.

[devils]

Are you going to continue with narrow gauge steam or is standard gauge an option?
For standard gauge how about an expanded version of Tony Koesters large scale switching layout from Model railroader last year? Can't remember which issues off the top of my head but i'm sure the MR guys could tell you which if you email them.
Aristocraft and USA trains do a fantastic range in 1:29 standard gauge.
For Narrow gauge you've got a huge range of stuff in the adverts in GR at good prices. If you fancy small trains but beautiful detail look at the Accucraft AMS of boxcars and tanks range on their website (locos are a bit more expensive!). You'll get more bachmann for your money but less detail. The Bachmann locos are all good value $260 down to $90 for different locos in one advert on p21 for example. Wish we could get them for that in the UK, I'd be in even more trouble though for using up all the space.
Good luck

[Marty Cozad]

Flat is good.
As a beginner in outdoor modeling its a way to find out how everything works. later if you stay in the hobby you can dig a pond and there is your dirt for hills and mountains.
I'd say sale everything and build an outdoor RR. The greatest challenge is getting it and keeping it working in the great out of doors.
(I'm NOT saying any thing wrong with indooors)

[devils]

Ooh if you look at Marty's past posts it'll inspire you. I think he's modelling a scale country with all those different shots!
Have you got room to punch a hole in your basement wall for an outdoor circuit where you cna watch from indoors . . . . just an idea[;)]

[brochhau]

Great suggestions and thank you to everyone. You have all given me a lot to think about. Since I seriously lack in any G scale equipment, and after talking it over with the wife (nope, no kids yet), I think I have come to a sensible solution (subject to change... again...)

I am planning on sticking with HO in the basement since I already have equipment, building and such. However, I will slowly but streadily aquire a few G scale items throughout the year to perhaps get something going outside either late this year or next spring.

That way I can get a decent operations layout going in the basement when it's cold out, and watch trains run in the summer when the last thing I want is to be in the basement.

Unfortunately, an indoor to outdoor layout won't work at all with the layout of my house. But that would be my first choice. Just not feasible.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!
Scott

[Tom The Brat]

Summer evenings in the garden with kids and trains... Sounds mighty nice to me.

[Marty Cozad]

Like I said , flat is good.
keep it simple and just run trains all over the yard.

[Puckdropper]

brochhau,

Keep your eyes open... I got started with G by spending less than 10 dollars at a garage sale. Several hours worth of work later, I got a locomotive that works pretty good. I'm also indebted to LGB for their quick free service.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like you and me have the same idea, I plan to build a HO layout in the basement, but the wife bought me a G loco for Christmas, now all my free time/money is planning my outdoor layout, with the HO on hold. Has anyone built a indoor/outdoor "door" for bringing the trains inside? just curious because im thinking it might work to store inside in the basement, I have a basement style (1'x2' or so) window that could be modified, etc just looking for how....I could design it my self, but if someone else has done this and it works, great.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Search back, within the last year GR did an article on the doors.

Rene, got any idea which issue?

If worst comes to worst, you could remove a pane from the window, insert a plywood pane with a train sized cut out, and use a hunk of upholstry foam (the 3 or 4 inch thick stuff) to close the hole when not running.

[tangerine-jack]

Or you could use a cat door.......................

[markperr]

Wisconsin weather isn't a whole lot different from Michigan weather. I live just north of Ann Arbor, roughly forty miles west of Detroit.

Had a girlfriend that lived in Milwaukee about a half a lifetime ago. she lived just north of Mitchell field. We had some fun times, but I was in the Navy and got shipped overseas. We corresponded for awhile, but I let it slide away.

Been happily married to another for a 1/4 century.

Hey, but that's not trains. Anyway, what captain turk said is a really good idea if you can swing it. I thought about doing it after it was too late. Basement is finished into a rec room and home theater and a sewing room for the missus. No more room for trains, sadly.

Mark

[brochhau]

Well, indoor G scale it is! My mother was cleaning out her basement (finally) and came across several boxes of unopened Bachmann track. (No idea where it came from...) While I won't use this as the permanent stuff, it will allow a sufficient (and free) supply of track to get started.

Also, a new Shay I won on eBay means there is no turning back now! Showed a picture of it to my wife and she is almost more excited than I am. Now if I could get her to help with the benchwork...

Next... more decisions. Track plan, DC/DCC, what to do with my HO stuff (eBay).... I'm looking forward to this. It will obviously take time, but I needed a starting point and here I am! Thanks to all for your advice!

Scott

[Rene Schweitzer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Capt Bob Johnson

Search back, within the last year GR did an article on the doors.

Rene, got any idea which issue?

If worst comes to worst, you could remove a pane from the window, insert a plywood pane with a train sized cut out, and use a hunk of upholstry foam (the 3 or 4 inch thick stuff) to close the hole when not running.

Yep, that was the Feb. 2005 issue. Six readers gave their solutions to bringing things indoors.

[Rene Schweitzer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brochhau

now! Showed a picture of it to my wife and she is almost more excited than I am. Now if I could get her to help with the benchwork...

Next... more decisions. Track plan, DC/DCC, what to do with my HO stuff (eBay).... I'm looking forward to this. It will obviously take time, but I needed a starting point and here I am! Thanks to all for your advice!

Scott

Howdy, neighbor (I'm in Waukesha county),
Congrats on taking the "plunge." I wanted to say that if your wife is excited, she might want to help with the benchwork! No saying that ladies can't help in any area they're interested in. I've been to some garden railways where the _woman_ was the one kitbashing the trains! [:D]

[brochhau]

Hi Rene,

Yup, all my wife's family is in Waukesha so we are there often. She won't do any benchwork, but once trains are running, I think she would be more than happy to help with scenery, "mini scenes" and the such.

I found a few sites online about indoor large scale and I think I am really going to like this. Just a matter of taking some time and acquiring the basics. So far, so good!

Scott

[Anonymous]

The idea of having an indoor outdoor layout has fascinated me since i saw the one at LGB distributor in sourthern New South Wales. However i cannot see any reason for going indoors at all where i live; here in thropics, except maybe to get out of the heat. I actually only run my trains in the evening in summer for this reason. (say 4 pm to 5 pm on)

I do understand that in some parts of the USA and UK and pretty well all of Canada it is not reasonable or even possible to run outdoors all year round; however at other times it is very pleasant. Hence my interest in outdoor indoor installations.

Where the Australian LGB dealer is situated is pretty close to one of the few places in Australia that gets snow, so maybe they had that reason for doing it the way they did.


Rgds ian

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the info all on hot to build my "door" -Im gonna add it to my todo list
Eric

[on30francisco]

I think I am hooked on Large Scale. I am still modeling On30 but I am currently building a logging caboose in Large Scale that I originally built in O scale. What a difference! LS is an absolute pleasure to work with and the detail is fantastic! I think there are more detail parts available in LS that in O scale and the prices are about the same or less - and LS is big enough to see the details. I plan to build a small LS indoor logging / industrial layout and use small equipment that can handle the tight curves that I must have in my overpriced, crackerbox San Francisco studio apartment. I will concentrate on superdetailed mini-scenes. In addition to the regular LS (45mm track) I'm going to build, I'm thinking of using some of the On30 trucks, track, and other equipment I have to build a Gn15 line. The Bachmann On30 Porters and mining cars can be bashed to Gn15.