Which wood would you use?

[FJ and G]

Picked up the latest GR mag and liked the article on building bridges. The dude ripped old cedar picket fences.

I'm preparing to put up a trestle similar to his (I liked his simple trackplan as well and may do something similar).

The question I have, is which type of wood is good to withstand the elements. I'm in northern Virginia. I want something that will last. I have a table saw so I can rip wood fairly quickly.

Also, do some type of laminate or preservatives need to be added to the wood now or periodically?

Also, does the wood first have to be cured?

Thanks.

Dave

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

...........................The question I have, is which type of wood is good to withstand the elements. I'm in northern Virginia. I want something that will last. I have a table saw so I can rip wood fairly quickly.
.................

Hi Dave,

Cedar, Redwood and Larch (Tamarack).

[cacole]

I used cedar fence pickets, too, and coated them with polyurethane. My truss bridges and trestle bent posts were built of cedar. For the cross bracing on the trestle bents I used redwood bender board cut into narrow strips. These, too, I coated with polyurethane, and then used yellow glue and a brad gun to assemble everything.

I chose cedar fence pickets and redwood bender board only because both are plentiful out here in Arizona.

[FJ and G]

thanks. the poly coating sounds prudent.

Forgot to ask one more question.

How do you join the pieces? Rust-proof screws like brass or weatherproof glue?

Thanks

[majnnj]

Use both Glue & Screws (Brass)
I screw from bottom where possible, and use brad nail for looks
as well as a mechanical fastner, then coat with a weather type wood perservitive
any good deck sealer will work,
good luck

[ttrigg]

Cedar and Redwood tend to have a useable life span outside of 15 - 20 years. Home Depot sells a wood preservative, a green thin liquid that quickly soaks in VERY deep into the grain of the wood. Enhances the insect deterrence and rot resistance to add at least another 10 years. At this rate looks like some of my structures will still be around long after I'm gone! After it sets for a day or two, it can be painted or glues easily.

[TheJoat]

David,
I'm over here in Burke and use both cedar and redwood. I didn't cut my own, but bought it already cut from Garden Texture
(I already have enough dust, thank you [:p] ). Actually, the bridge was a kit, the trestle made from their plans which they also sell for those who want to cut their own wood.

It's held together with Titebond II and brass pins. It's been outside for a few years now and looks good.

[Anonymous]

Just like the folks said, another possibility is if you can find good stright grained and tight grained pressure treated lumber.

mikadousrp

[FJ and G]

Went to Lowe's yesterday and spoke to the sales guy; who acted as if he was knowledgable about woods.

Told him everything that was mentioned in this post and he said for his money he'd use Lowe's treated wood (pine?) over cedar or redwood any day. He said their wood is treated to the very center, since I stressed to him I'd be ripping ties.

Soooo, I got me a large board and yesterday carved a number of ties. I'm also going to get cedar and redwood, along with the recommended preservatives and see which wood lasts the longest and report back to you in a few years with this long-term experiment.

BTW, the salesman said cypruss is one of the better outside woods to use but they weren't selling any.

Nother question.

After a few years, do you re-treat your ties with preservatives or do as prototype does w/tie-replacement program?

I imagine you have to be cautious with preservatives so they don't damage rails?

I'll get photos up in next week or so.

Thanks.

[markperr]

From a safety standpoint, if you do a lot of ripping, you want to have a good respitrator. A paper mask won't do it. If you're in a closed in area and are ripping cedar, for example, you'll have a very hard time breathing inside of a few passes. I'm pretty sure redwood is the same. I've never heard of anyone using PT lumber for bridge building. Not too sure if it would be as strong when ripped down to such small dimensions. A real crude tension test would be to take a two foot piece of PT and cedar or redwood cut to one of your working dimensions and stretch them across an open space with only the ends supported. then start hanging identical weights from both and see which gives way first. Might be quicker that waiting twenty or thirty years to see which one rots away first.

Ahhh..... an afterthought. Usually when you buy PT lumber it is soaking wet from the injected preservatives. More times than not,as they dry, the pieces tend to warp, causing them to be all but useless.

Mark

[vsmith]

Mark makes a good point about Pressure Treated Douglass Fir or PTDF. it does tend to warp and the chemicals used are pretty nasty,****nic was a common component until a couple years ago. Today its a copper based chemical. USE GLOVES when handling and a mask when cutting. Also the dipping process usually involves punching alot of holes into the wood to facilitate the seapage of the preservative into the core of the lumber. The biggest side effect is that the material dramaticly looses strenth and tends to split and break easier. Also the chemicals can be washed out of the wood and into the soil due to continued exposure to water.

While I've used PTDF for landscape headers, personally i wouldnt use it for RR structures for the reasons noted above, namely the splitting i've encountered. I'd use redwood or cedar for bridges, portals or retaining walls with the preference being to redwood as its softer, hold up very well in my climate (SoCal) and a very easy wood to work with.

[ttrigg]

David

I agree with both David and Vic. Pressure treated lumber has way too many drawbacks, slpiting, warping, COST, as well as overall strenght loss. Redwood and cedar work great outdoors, for any type project. If you want to enhace the longevity of your work then go to a place like Home Depot or Lowes, they both carry a "preservitive sealant." For my money redwood looks good, holds up well to almost any weather (so long as the weather is not moving at more than 50 miles per hour), an occaisional VERY THIN application of redwood stain (like 3 or 4 years) keeps it looking good and the oils in the stain will help with preserving the wood.

[FJ and G]

OK, I'll take the advise. BTW, I wasn't gonna use the pressure treated stuff for trestles, only for ties, as well as underlayment (subroadbed). Anyway, since I already cut a few ties, I'll still use them and see how they last. They'd be fairly easy to replace and there's not an awful lot of them.

I'll see what types of preservatives for the cedar and redwood that Home Depot and Lowe's recommend.

BTW, I carry my table saw to the outside patio, where I do all my cutting; downwind of course and with full face and neck protection from flying chunks.

Tom,

My backyard, unfortunately, seems to be a veritable wind tunnel. One storm we had about 9 months ago moved my very large grill around 30 feet, flipping in over a few times. I've since anchored it.

Now that you mention wind, I'm a bit concerned about some high trestlework I'm considering. I would think that the wind could go through the trestlework, however and that the only concern might be flying debris.

Of more concern is the pond I'm planning for next spring. The pond book I'm reading states to locate the pond away from wind so water plants don't get washed ashore. I'm not sure what to do and even planting bushes around the pond might not stop the wind. Heck, it's so windy that my relatively new fence is bowing out already.

[John Busby]

Hi FG&J
If you are going to use a soft treated wood for sleepers( ties)
you need to make sure the heart wood is down ie facing the ground.
I would also be doing an anual treatment with old sump oil to keep the wood munchers out soft wood does not make the best sleepers
You really want what ever the local hard wood that has good weather and rot resistance.
While this may not be the best cost option it is the best option from the engineering point of view but regardless of the wood get as much heart wood down as you can.
regards John

[FJ and G]

John,

Is cedar and redwood considered "hard wood"?

Is sump old sump oil used car oil? Why not new car oil? Back in 2000, there's a 3-rail layout in Garden RR mag that uses wood ties and creosote. I believe real RRs use creosote but I've not seen any on sale.

Seems guys on this forum tend to use the polyurethanes sold around here.

BTW, on a personal note, I enjoyed a deployment to Perth Australia back in 1981 with the Marines. Back then I got free train rides all thru the outback simply by wearing my uniform. The people are very friendly to us Yanks; something increasingly less common in other parts of the globe.

IMO, the Perth area is the best place on earth to live. Great climate, low crime, friendly natives.

[Anonymous]

Redwood and Cedar are both soft woods. White Oak(NOT RED) is suitable for outdoors as well as Cypress( both are hardwoods). Mahogany is also a wonderful wood for exterior although it is soft as well and rather pricey.

Anything you use should be treated with something. I would look into Solid or semi-transparent stains for treating bridges over polyurethane. The stains wear with the weather as opposed to the pealing that paint and poly's tend to do and ever few years just restain after a good cleaning as opposed to scraping and sanding you need to do before re-painting/poly.

[ttrigg]

David

If you are concerned about wind then think about the following:

POND: My local pond stores all have these little plastic "plant baskets" to keep plants from shifting around. I do not have any yet but probably will soon. They have a little tab that uses a "fish safe" silicone glue to stick to the rocks and then just floats to the length of the tab that you cut.

STRUCTURES: A few well placed rocks and plants will break up the wind pattern to protect buildings and such. Bridges and such; just make the piers a little longer and put them farther into the ground. If you have a well drained soil then no problem, if your soil does not drain then look at using a tight grain hardwood for the "legs" of your structure. For deep bury of wood you might consider brushing on your own preservative after construction. It runs about $6 a pint, and a pint will cover all your needs in the GRR for a couple of years.

[FJ and G]

Thanks Matt for the clarifications. The stains sound much more maintenance friendly. I was just about to leave to do some purchasing so your reply was timely.

I know I asked lots of questions but moving from inside layouts to outside is like learning to walk again.

[FJ and G]

thanks Tom,

I'm blessed with good draining as my entire backyard slopes from 12 to 20 percent (which will necessitate trestles for turnaround portions of track.

Will also facilitate pond runoff.

THe ideas for the plants and windbreaks are very reasonable. Thanks

[FJ and G]

went to lowe's & HD and no luck. Lowes had cedar fencing that looked terrible. HD had some nice douglas fir which grows near redwood. I was tempted to pick up a large pole but I knew as soon as I did I'd be informed on the forum that it's not the right type of wood.

I'm beginning to believe I have to go to Oregon to buy cedar or redwood.

They did have oak but it was red oak, not the good white oak. And man is it expensive.

I did purchase a 2x10x10 massive piece of pressure treated wood to use as the base for a crossover I'll be building soon (if I can ever find cedar or redwood for the ties, that is). At least I can draw out where the track is going.

I'm going to loosly screw the track onto that 2x10x10 so that it has room to float a bit.

Just curious if the wood would last longer for the subroadbed if I placed sand or gravel under the wood for drainage to reduce mold. Anyone comment on this?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

went to lowe's & HD and no luck. Lowes had cedar fencing that looked terrible. HD had some nice douglas fir which grows near redwood. I was tempted to pick up a large pole but I knew as soon as I did I'd be informed on the forum that it's not the right type of wood.

I'm beginning to believe I have to go to Oregon to buy cedar or redwood.

They did have oak but it was red oak, not the good white oak. And man is it expensive.

I did purchase a 2x10x10 massive piece of pressure treated wood to use as the base for a crossover I'll be building soon (if I can ever find cedar or redwood for the ties, that is). At least I can draw out where the track is going.

I'm going to loosly screw the track onto that 2x10x10 so that it has room to float a bit.

Just curious if the wood would last longer for the subroadbed if I placed sand or gravel under the wood for drainage to reduce mold. Anyone comment on this?

Thanks.

Drainage under wood is always a very good Idea, go with the gravel, sand tends to hold moisture. If I recall redwood at home depot and lowes was aquired by other forum users in the garden section for some type of plant stake , maybe tonmato or somthing like that. White can be more easily aquired if you look for hardwood flooring, chance's of LOwes or HD having solid white Oak flooring are slim to none. Check the phone book for a wood flooring supplier in your area. Cedar can also be found in HD near their millwork(stair parts and flat stock area. Douglas fir is more stable than yellow pine which PTL is made from, and is used in a lot of front door units, you would probably have to do yearly maintence on the DF though. Redwood is special order only here in Columbus, Ohio other one lumber yard and even their selection is somtimes pitifull.

[John Busby]

Hi FG&J
Not sure what woods are hard or soft woods
But each area of the world has woods which stand up too the outdoor conditions better than others that's the wood for ties.
old Sump oil the stuff your local mechanic gets out of cars when he does the servicing.
Why use it instead of new oil simple its free but will still keep the timber munchers out.
Creosote is a very nasty chemical coctail that in some places in the world is now a banned substance the trouble is the new aproved substances are no where near as effective.

But even using old sump oil in the small quantities we would use care must be taken not to get it out side the confines of the railroad we only want to keep the bugs out of that not Kill the lady bugs that Keep the Aphids off SWMBO"s prized rose that just happens to be close to the line because it would have been a death sentence to tamper with it.

Perth has changed a lot since I lived there when I travel to Perth I will not go into the city at night I don't know which areas to stay away from any more.
and there are a lot of gated communities being built.
the idea of fortress home saddens me a bit
I now live about 500 miles away from Perth in the Goldfields and some of the bad features from perth are slowly filtering out to here.
regards John

[FJ and G]

John,

my pressure-treated ties are now sitting in a vat of Penzoil (new, not used).

That outa lube the spikes a bit when I put it down.

Leaving the batch to soak for about a week.

Still, going to look for cedar & redwood. The pressure treated, oil soaked ties will just be a short stretch of track test case.

Just have to be sure not to dump the coals on the ties as it may start a fire. :-)

[Anonymous]

David, add to your construction list

Build ash pit[:D]

[smcgill]

The wood is Ceder with Tomson water proofing!
The wood was free!
Go to any Fencine co' and look in the scrap or free wood or ask! [8D]
Just rip on band/table saw![;)]
Titte bond 2 and a brad nailer! [^]

[FJ and G]

I'm still searching for sources & came across a photo of a white cedar:

http://www.dof.virginia.gov/mgt/trees/cedar-north-white.shtml

We have or should I say HAD these in our area; that is before the developers came to put in another subdivision; if only I'd known I would have gotten out the ax

[grandpopswalt]

Re: used motor oil - I think that it is considered carcinogenic even in small amounts. The run-off can get into the groundwater and cause problems. Probably better off using a product like TREX to be completely environment freindly.

[FJ and G]

Walt,

I spoke to someone who used Trex and he said it expanded in warm weather and he had problems with it.

I did find some cedar planks at Lowe's and using someone's advice here I purchased a large can of Thompson's waterseal. I got the longer lasting pigment kind that is a honey color.

I did douse some ties in motor oil (new oil) and will wipe off excess oil and see how they work, but not using an extensive quantity.

It's a wonder we didn't die as kids as they used to oil the dirt roads and use oil to kill ants.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

Walt,

I spoke to someone who used Trex and he said it expanded in warm weather and he had problems with it.

I did find some cedar planks at Lowe's and using someone's advice here I purchased a large can of Thompson's waterseal. I got the longer lasting pigment kind that is a honey color.

I did douse some ties in motor oil (new oil) and will wipe off excess oil and see how they work, but not using an extensive quantity.





It's a wonder we didn't die as kids as they used to oil the dirt roads and use oil to kill ants.

I can't believe I didn't remember this sooner, use linseed oil, it will turn cedar almost black and protect it for years. Soak ties in a bucket of this instead of motor oil. It will take a good while to dry though.

[FJ and G]

Thanks Matt,

I'm making yet another trip to Lowe's and will pick up some linseed oil for ties.

I'm going to start this weekend on building a trainshed using Richard Smith's plans and unabashedly copying some of what he did with his train shed. I'll be using cedar for the shed (10-ft long & 3 tracks wide). Coating that wood with the Thompson's water seal.

He painted some of the wood, such as the door and window trim. I've got interior latex paint; I'm wondering if that would hold up? Actually, if it starts coming off, I'm thinking that the weathering effect might be pretty neat.

Any suggestions; keep them coming!

I expect to eventually start posting photos of progress as well.